PC Gamers.

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
This is a rant.

I think it's a shame when folks complain about "the way it used to be. Oftentimes, "the way it used to be is" the way it still is, you've just gotten older and more resistant to change.

I hate it when large swaths of people are painted with a broad brush. If you go over to P&N right now, you'll see posters there slinging insults and generalizations about groups that comprise thousands if not millions of people. I think on some level, we all know that's not fair but it's easier to put people into boxes to easily identify and label, fairness be damned.

That being said, PC Gamers used to be a friendlier, more mature and forgiving community and have become a group of self-entitled whiners. They bounce miserably from game to game, never satisfied with anything, viciously nit-picking each new title into oblivion and waiting for the next big thing, only so they can blow it apart.

No one is happy with *anything,* which is unfortunate because PC Gaming has never been better.

I don't have numbers to back this up but in my experience, PC Gamers have always been an older, more mature bunch than their console counterparts. If I ever talk to any of my friends or peers about gaming, I always have to relate things to the Xbox or Playstation. Maybe it has to do with the cost involved or the amount of technical ability required or even the greater amount of patience you have possess to troubleshoot bugs and what-have-you that come up.

In the last decade though, several of those barriers to entry have been lowered, if not lifted altogether. Component prices have never been lower. You can easily build a perfectly capable gaming rig for ~$6-700 (which is cheaper than a console if you factor in the cost of a 47 inch LCD). Dealing with Windows 7 and the wealth of easily obtainable 'how-to's' and help information available online is a hell of a lot easier than freeing up IRQ's and mucking around in DOS.

I think there are those who would say that that a high barrier to entry was the one thing keeping the more 'elite' PC community a cut above the unwashed masses of console gamers. There's probably a grain of truth in that. But with the removal of those barriers came an influx of new players, new developers (seeking new revenue streams) and new ideas. Love it or hate it, it's those new players who are just discovering this universe are keeping the hobby we all love so much infused with new blood and (more importantly, I guess) new dollars.

There's lots of blame to go around, though. In the years since gaming became a big business, you've got your Activisions and your EA's churning out sequel after sequel, each successive one barely iterating on the last. The term 'console port' has become an instant negative, connoting less-than-stellar controls, UI and graphics options.

Then there's the piracy angle. Whether or not piracy actually has an effect on sales is a debate for another thread but one this is for sure: the idea that piracy has had an effect on development. Invasive DRM has blown a hole in the landscape of PC Gaming. Personally, it's not a big deal to me but I get why some folks are upset.

That being said, the amount of vitriol surrounding PC Games is reaching critically absurd levels. The internet has given everyone a soap box (see: the unfortunately long missive I'm writing at this very minute) and made every forum and comment thread an echo chamber.

Why can't we give things a chance? Why can't we offer constructive criticism instead of sounding like raving lunatics? I don't work in the games industry at all and when I read some of the stuff that's out there, I can't imagine anyone wanting to develop PC Games exclusively. In return for your hard work, you get a face full of bile and criticism about the most irrelevant minutiae.

I'm rambling. Go play your games. Enjoy them. Criticize but do it reasonably. Everyone involved here are human beings with human feelings. I think it would do everyone a service to remember that.

TL;DR: Shut the fuck up and play
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
2
76
I too am surprised at the sheer stupidity of people complaining about the battlefield beta recently.

They are talking about canceling preorders over completely obvious bugs that will undoubtedly be fixed. Stop your whining douchebags. Bugs and all BF3 is such a great game already that I haven't anticipated a game this much since the original COD.
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
I agree that it has become a whinefest overall.

There are some legit things that are bitched about and are constantly being repeated by devs so the whining is over a lot of the same issues.

These issues, which IMO we have a right to bitch about as this stuff was standard flare before consoles became the money machines they are.

No dedicated servers
No keybinding
No/little video options (including FOV)
No mod support
Sloppy ports from consoles

If those things were taken care of in games, the amount of bitching would be reduced dramatically imo.
 

Via

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,695
4
0
As a guy who enjoys PC and console games -

I think PC gamers have right to be pretty cynical about the state of affairs. Their platform has been neutered to conform to the limitations of 7 year old hardware. Their games have disappeared from store shelves. "PC Exclusive" has become a startling term.

I try to stay out of it, but I still get a little pissed when I think about what they did to franchises like FEAR, the Elder Scrolls, or (more unforgivably) Gothic.

Even PB was obviously limited in depth when they made Risen because it "had to play on consoles".

You can say "stop bitching and just enjoy the games" all you want but leaves out the most important factor of all - we're human. It doesn't work that way. We have memories and we remember where our hobby stood in the not too distant past.

I'm trying hard to get Baldur's gate to run on my current PC because I have no hope for a game like Baldur's gate ever being made again.
 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
As a guy who enjoys PC and console games -

I think PC gamers have right to be pretty cynical about the state of affairs. Their platform has been neutered to conform to the limitations of 7 year old hardware. Their games have disappeared from store shelves. "PC Exclusive" has become a startling term.

I try to stay out of it, but I still get a little pissed when I think about what they did to franchises like FEAR, the Elder Scrolls, or (more unforgivably) Gothic.

Even PB was obviously limited in depth when they made Risen because it "had to play on consoles".

You can say "stop bitching and just enjoy the games" all you want but leaves out the most important factor of all - we're human. It doesn't work that way. We have memories and we remember where our hobby stood in the not too distant past.

I'm trying hard to get Baldur's gate to run on my current PC because I have no hope for a game like Baldur's gate ever being made again.

Those are fair points. I understand that folks get upset because they have an investment in a specific series. I don't think that they *shouldn't* get upset - just...take it easy.

Have you tried gog.com? They were having a sale on Baldur's Gate last I checked.
 

Via

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,695
4
0
Yeah, that's actually the version of BG that I'm trying to get right. It doesn't work with my 5970.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Those are fair points. I understand that folks get upset because they have an investment in a specific series. I don't think that they *shouldn't* get upset - just...take it easy.

It is not just investment in a specific series. PC versions of games are often little more then after thoughts given little resources and work just 'good enough'. We can see that just a little more work would have made it a much better game, but the companies have no real incentive to put that little work into it. Look at Borderlands FOV problem, it is a very simple thing for them to fix, it can be mostly fixed with a simple ini change, but the company never got around to doing anything about it even though they released numerous DLCs.

So we bitch and complain in the hopes that the devs will hear us and give us just a little bit more of the resource share. Because we know that we make up a larger percent of the market share then the devs are giving us credit for, it just doesn't come in the opening weekend.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
I dont really bitch about them anymore because I just don't buy games new anymore. I've been let down too many times in the past. People should start speaking with their wallets, but as you can see by the "preorders" people are dumb.
 

motsm

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2010
1,822
2
76
We are indeed whiners, but for good reason most of the time, so I don't agree with you. I have mostly stopped complaining however, as it's not as if developers are going to pay attention to complaints as long as their games sell millions.

I do agree the BF3 beta stuff is silly, especially because we've all seen these beta situations many times before.

:Edit:
Yeah, that's actually the version of BG that I'm trying to get right. It doesn't work with my 5970.
Which renderer are you using? DX or OpenGL? Or do neither work?
 
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gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,740
452
126
Agreed on most of it, though I hate when people try and claim you can get a decent gaming computer for as much as a console... and then try and sway the costs by saying a console includes a TV.

No it doesn't. You pay $300 for the console, and you leave it at that. Can you make a decent modern gaming computer for $300? Ignore the TV or monitor, because you need a display to use either so it's a wash. A semi-decent tower will run at least $500 if you want to run modern games. PC gamers need to admit it costs a decent amount more. Especially when the consoles are as old as they are.
 

Via

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,695
4
0
Which renderer are you using? DX or OpenGL? Or do neither work?

I'm pretty certain it's a crossfire issue. I haven't had any luck with the XP virtual machine.
I'll have to try something like VMware when I have time.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
PC gamers are no different than any other hobbyist really. I'm sure there are some model kit builders pissed because they use a new plastic. The internet just amplifies this, and the bigger the community the louder it sounds. It'll be worse when no one talks PC gaming, and no one cares when franchises are ruined by poor marketing and design decisions.
 

motsm

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2010
1,822
2
76
I'm pretty certain it's a crossfire issue. I haven't had any luck with the XP virtual machine.
I'll have to try something like VMware when I have time.
I gather you have atleast tried both however? You can choose to turn on OpenGL in the setup utility before you launch the game. Not sure if it would affect a Crossfire issue or not I suppose.
 
Sep 23, 2011
197
0
76
I'll say this for PC gamers in general, at least they know HOW things work. I find that the majority of console gamers just complain with no logic at all. I'd venture to say that less than 10% of console gamers know what's actually inside their units.

Personally, I don't complain. I'm older. I vote with my wallet. If I like something, I buy it and find others who like it. If not, I move on.

Although, there's no excuse for not understanding what BETA means.
 

JAG87

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2006
3,921
3
76
They bounce miserably from game to game, never satisfied with anything, viciously nit-picking each new title into oblivion and waiting for the next big thing, only so they can blow it apart.

Yea, and the reason for that is that there's no innovation.

PC games used to bring innovation. Now we're just being fed the same thing with a different name and different textures. Sometimes not even that.

This industry used to have a thirst for better. Now it's just a thirst for more.
 

TheUnk

Golden Member
Jun 24, 2005
1,810
0
71
beta is a beta...people are dumb.

Whats the difference between an open beta and a demo?

Yes, people know it's beta.. Yes, people know it's going to have bugs.. But in the end? It's a demo.

Honestly, what % people do you think try a beta with their #1 intention being to help test it? Most of them try it so they can demo the game for themselves.

Face it, the BF3 "beta" became a demo once it was opened to all. There is no avoiding it, people are going to base their opinion of the game from it.

People can cry "it's a beta" all they want when someone doesn't like an aspect of it, but chances are that aspect isn't going to change. In most cases they are fixing bugs and balancing, not making changes to gameplay or overall feel of the game.
 

maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
Whats the difference between an open beta and a demo?

Yes, people know it's beta.. Yes, people know it's going to have bugs.. But in the end? It's a demo.

Honestly, what % people do you think try a beta with their #1 intention being to help test it? Most of them try it so they can demo the game for themselves.

Face it, the BF3 "beta" became a demo once it was opened to all. There is no avoiding it, people are going to base their opinion of the game from it.

People can cry "it's a beta" all they want when someone doesn't like an aspect of it, but chances are that aspect isn't going to change. In most cases they are fixing bugs and balancing, not making changes to gameplay or overall feel of the game.

In BF3's case, it's hard to tell the difference between a bug, or whether it's intended to be that way and simply hasn't been put in yet, and that they don't tell us their plans leaves us wondering.

For example, we know destruction is limited for the Beta and that's fine. And they told us commo rose didn't make it to the beta and that's fine.

But what about the squads(only as an example)? Squads are little better than BC2 at the moment, especially in terms of the inability to create custom ones, boot people, etc. And THAT they haven't told us one way or the other. Bug? Just didn't make it in yet? Or we're not getting it ever?
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
In BF3's case, it's hard to tell the difference between a bug, or whether it's intended to be that way and simply hasn't been put in yet, and that they don't tell us their plans leaves us wondering.

For example, we know destruction is limited for the Beta and that's fine. And they told us commo rose didn't make it to the beta and that's fine.

But what about the squads(only as an example)? Squads are little better than BC2 at the moment, especially in terms of the inability to create custom ones, boot people, etc. And THAT they haven't told us one way or the other. Bug? Just didn't make it in yet? Or we're not getting it ever?

I'd say squads are actually worse in the beta. At least in BC2 you can see what squads are available and leave a crappy one, join a good one, or form a new one. There is no UI for it in the beta.

I dunno, at my company alpha milestone is feature complete. I know it varies from company to company, but this is supposedly a beta with less than 30 days away from release, and thats generous as it has to be manufactured and shipped to retail. Gameplay issues aside, all these UI issues seem like intentional design, and probably is what the final game will be like. I'm hoping its just really old code, but then there are also game breaking gameplay issues like the holes in the ground which they didn't seem to know about and had to turn off terrain destruction. If they knew about it, it would have been turned off before we got our hands on it. And Caspian Border, which they've had in trailers for a little while now, is not suitable for general testing in the beta? What does that mean for all the other maps that we haven't even seen screenshots of?

And really, complaining now is when it matters most. People who were in the alpha should have been complaining. Hopefully it'll work itself out, but it seems like EA and DICE are rushing this a little too much to compete with MW3. Like Medal of Honor trying to compete with Black Ops. Complaining doesnt make PC gamers whiners, just concerned about the games they like to play.
 
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Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
I'd say squads are actually worse in the beta. At least in BC2 you can see what squads are available and leave a crappy one, join a good one, or form a new one. There is no UI for it in the beta.

I dunno, at my company alpha milestone is feature complete. I know it varies from company to company, but this is supposedly a beta with less than 30 days away from release, and thats generous as it has to be manufactured and shipped to retail. Gameplay issues aside, all these UI issues seem like intentional design, and probably is what the final game will be like. I'm hoping its just really old code, but then there are also game breaking gameplay issues like the holes in the ground which they didn't seem to know about and had to turn off terrain destruction. If they knew about it, it would have been turned off before we got our hands on it. And Caspian Border, which they've had in trailers for a little while now, is not suitable for general testing in the beta? What does that mean for all the other maps that we haven't even seen screenshots of?

And really, complaining now is when it matters most. People who were in the alpha should have been complaining. Hopefully it'll work itself out, but it seems like EA and DICE are rushing this a little too much to compete with MW3. Like Medal of Honor trying to compete with Black Ops. Complaining doesnt make PC gamers whiners, just concerned about the games they like to play.

Complaining doesn't - everyone complains. I do it all the time. I'm complaining about complainers in this very post. What I'm after is the extreme whining, the worst of the complainers and the loudest of the loud.

As a general rule, if you feel the need to include nine exclamation points in your argument, you should probably rethink it.
 

lsv

Golden Member
Dec 18, 2009
1,610
0
71
OP stop whining about whiners and get back to being 'great' at MW
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,733
565
126
Agreed on most of it, though I hate when people try and claim you can get a decent gaming computer for as much as a console... and then try and sway the costs by saying a console includes a TV.

No it doesn't. You pay $300 for the console, and you leave it at that. Can you make a decent modern gaming computer for $300? Ignore the TV or monitor, because you need a display to use either so it's a wash. A semi-decent tower will run at least $500 if you want to run modern games. PC gamers need to admit it costs a decent amount more. Especially when the consoles are as old as they are.

It does cost more, but that has always been true. The cost differential has shrunk a great deal though. You could make a convoluted case to event them out with game purchase costs. On the other side of coin I still see people claim you need a $5000 gaming rig to play the latest games. I don't know when the last time $5000 was the entry requirement for a fast gaming rig...1991? I'd be hard pressed to build any machine that cost $5000 now even if I filled it with SLI cards and triple monitors.

What is most annoying about PC Gaming is how its flooded with ports now. I don't mind a port if they actually redo the UI but they often don't. And consoles usually have limits on the kind of worlds they display and those same limits end up part of the PC spectrum. I don't want games with no dedicated servers or levels that need to fit into a tiny amount of memory. I have shit tons of memory, use it! I want crazy shit I've never seen before because that's why I pay the entry fee and deal with the bullshit. And I'm not just talking about graphics or even primarily about graphics.

That said small development houses and Indy games are sort of filling the gaps left behind by Army Shooter of the week so I can't complain to much.
 
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