PC repair clients that make you feel frustrated, and don't seem to ever be pleased.

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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
Really should have told them straight up that this laptop can not handle Windows 10, SSD upgrade or not.

Now, I'm not saying that they would have listened or understood that, but at least you give them full disclosure:

"What you are asking me to do will make this machine worse--It's just physics and math, man. ...and that is free advice" Maybe would have saved you 8 hours of your underpaid time on that.
I'm honestly not convinced that it runs Win10 all THAT much worse, than it was running Win7 64-bit, and they were using it daily, as I understand it.

I didn't "tweak" Win10 that much after installing it, because I wasn't certain of what the requirements of the business software that they had on there had of Win10. If I knew for a fact, that it could handle a Shutup10 settings application, I would have done it. For home users, that's part of my "standard treatment".

The thing is, and I was doing this job so rush-rush for them, I didn't really recall this fact to tell them, but Win10 may be more handicapped by using an HDD, as it seems like it was mostly designed for a PC using an SSD for the OS drive, rather than a HDD. I mean, it still runs on a HDD system, but Win7 may run a little better on a HDD system.

That's mostly a conjecture of mine, based on anecdotal experience, with both Win7 and Win10, and not based on any factual information. So I hesitate to tell a client that, as a fact, more like, a sort of anecdotal rule-of-thumb. I'm not sure than an SSD would have cured this laptop, though, because it was also quite a bit CPU-bottlenecked. Especially with Norton.
 

WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,514
548
136
How do you figure this took 8 hours? Do you sit and stare at it the whole time it's updating? When I update a PC, I look at it for 10 minutes maybe three times. Then check for updates and image it. I don't sit and watch the image being created either.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
How do you figure this took 8 hours? Do you sit and stare at it the whole time it's updating? When I update a PC, I look at it for 10 minutes maybe three times. Then check for updates and image it. I don't sit and watch the image being created either.
I was referring to the start time and end time, when everything was basically "finished". I probably had to give it my attention for maybe 3 hours total. (Remember, have to keep checking to make sure it's not hung. Every 5 minutes at least.)
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,806
29,557
146
I'm honestly not convinced that it runs Win10 all THAT much worse, than it was running Win7 64-bit, and they were using it daily, as I understand it.

I didn't "tweak" Win10 that much after installing it, because I wasn't certain of what the requirements of the business software that they had on there had of Win10. If I knew for a fact, that it could handle a Shutup10 settings application, I would have done it. For home users, that's part of my "standard treatment".

The thing is, and I was doing this job so rush-rush for them, I didn't really recall this fact to tell them, but Win10 may be more handicapped by using an HDD, as it seems like it was mostly designed for a PC using an SSD for the OS drive, rather than a HDD. I mean, it still runs on a HDD system, but Win7 may run a little better on a HDD system.

That's mostly a conjecture of mine, based on anecdotal experience, with both Win7 and Win10, and not based on any factual information. So I hesitate to tell a client that, as a fact, more like, a sort of anecdotal rule-of-thumb. I'm not sure than an SSD would have cured this laptop, though, because it was also quite a bit CPU-bottlenecked. Especially with Norton.

fair, I guess. I think Win10 is supposed to be a bit more "Efficient" than 7, anyway.

I think I still have one of those Acer 2 core 2ghz AMD value lappies that was a ~$400 Costco special back ~2010 or so. It was fine and zippy on Win 7 with light work...for 2 years. I gave up on it by 2013 for the most part.

I've had maybe 4 value laptops in my life. I've learned that laptops, for the most part, are truly built to shit at the prices that literally advertise them as shit. This seems to be a universal rule.

My 2015 Surface Pro has been a beast since then and has no signs of slowing down. It's the only laptop that I've used more than 3 years, every day, without any issues whatsoever. I'm typing on it now...and yet I'm telling myself that I want to replace it (but it's only because I might need a bigger display, a more solid "real" keyboard...meaning upgrade to a Surface Laptop or equivalent...if I decide to pursue this data science Masters that I'm thinking about...which means I will be using a laptop constantly, and that kind of daily demand, split screen, old eyes, doesn't work on a ~13" Surface Pro.)


...uh, point being, I guess humans understand these things from the beginning, learn them through experience, or will never get there because it just isn't in their wheelhouse and it never will be to gain any kind of minimal appreciation of hardware capabilities.
 
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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,522
759
146
I'm not sure why you're putting "free" in quotes there, unless you are referring to the fact that I won't ship people free PCs cross-country, AND pay for their shipping. (I'm not a charity.)
As far as selling "obsolete stuff for a premium", I've been trying to sell off my Z97 PC Mate (BNIB) mobo for a while now for $80. No takers. BNIB Z97 boards on ebay go for $200. I don't generally (mostly never, unless it's someone I have a beef with) price-gouge. Perhaps your definition and my definition of "depreciate" differ slightly, I try to get out of things what I paid for them originally. Maybe you think that's not "fair" somehow, but that's the market. Most obsolete stuff is price-gouged horribly.

OK. Maybe I'm being a little harsh here. I'm suggesting that saying you've given stuff for free is not necessarily indicative of anything. A common tactic is to give something "free" or heavily discounted but then also provided services or other goods to the same client at a premium. In this thread, for example, you wanted to sell him Puma for $200, and you're upselling it with a 512 SSD that he probably doesn't even need.

$340 is more realistic for a non-Slick Deal, and bit more than "double $100". Can you admit that you were being a bit disingenious, or perhaps just exaggerating, with your original claim?

That was Ryzen 5 a few months ago. You could definitely find Ryzen 3 for less than $340.


Or they're showing contempt for mine, and my abilities. By "threatening" that they could just buy a brand-new PC, for a couple hundred, so implying that I need to do this on the cheap. When they know full-well, that if they were to buy a new PC at BestBuy, they would be looking at probably at least $200 on top of it, for A/V program, bloatware cleanup, and installing their business program.

Seriously? Where do you find these people? I know of senile old cranks that need help, but what person using a "business program" can't install an OS or a program?

I gave them a damn bargain. And the laptop in question, I did not sell to them originally. Whether they consider it "worthless", is up to them, I suppose. They considered the laptop valuable enough to bring to me to have it serviced, after all. I don't honestly see why you think that I have contempt for their intelligence, if I did what they asked of me for that laptop.
After all, they did say that they DID NOT want to buy a new one. You seem to think that I should have brow-beat my client into changing their mind?

Refuse. It's an insult to add a $100 fix for a craptop that's not worth a dime. You should assume he's bad at expressing it or wants to willfully ignore any counterargument.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
I think I still have one of those Acer 2 core 2ghz AMD value lappies that was a ~$400 Costco special back ~2010 or so. It was fine and zippy on Win 7 with light work...for 2 years. I gave up on it by 2013 for the most part.
I think that I know which ones you're talking about. 11.6", AMD C-60 APU, 2GB/4GB RAM, 320GB/500GB HDD and Win7 64-bit? I had one of those systems, I used it as a throwaway, if I lost it, I took it to the Hospital. Anyways, it was a dog with the stock 5400RPM HDD, and was (marginally) better with a 120GB SSD in it. Eventually, "software creep" made it hard to use for anything useful, and couldn't Skype any more. Mine died when I had it on my bed, and spilled some lemonade into the cooling vents. Whoops. I missed it, a little bit. Was a good little (slow) laptop, while it lasted.

Got it for $180 (half price, more or less) on clearance at a Target one year, a few years back (well, probably 4-5 years ago).
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
OK. Maybe I'm being a little harsh here. I'm suggesting that saying you've given stuff for free is not necessarily indicative of anything. A common tactic is to give something "free" or heavily discounted but then also provided services or other goods to the same client at a premium. In this thread, for example, you wanted to sell him Puma for $200, and you're upselling it with a 512 SSD that he probably doesn't even need.
Huh? "Upselling"? No, the laptop was already upgraded with those parts. I could just re-image the laptop with their backup Win10 image, and it would probably be ready to go. The 512GB SSD, as well as the upgrade from 4GB to 8GB of RAM, was included in that $200 price, as well as the labor for restoring the backup image to it.

If I were to remove that 512GB SSD (which was only $50-60 anyways), and put in something smaller:
1) It would take MORE labor, and
2) the original HDD in their laptop in question, was like a 320GB, so in order to fit the backup image, in it's original partition size, I would need something bigger than a 256GB-class SSD anyways.

So, no, IMHO, not "upselling".

And the laptop originally had an MSRP (3-4 years ago) of $400, but I paid half of that new on ebay. I added the SSD ($50-60) and the additional 4GB DDR3L SO-DIMM ($25-35). So, really, I'm just asking for it, what I had into the main laptop unit originally. Granted, it has been lightly used. (Not really a daily-driver, I use it for configuring routers, it has an ethernet port.)

Edit: Maybe "unloading" (a used laptop, for basically what I paid for it, minus the costs of the upgrades, as a counter to the depreciation, which really should probably start at the MSRP, not what I paid for it - not for tax value, but for market-value for selling it off).
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
Seriously? Where do you find these people? I know of senile old cranks that need help, but what person using a "business program" can't install an OS or a program?
That's kind of a good question. I don't fully know the answer to that, in this case.

Refuse. It's an insult to add a $100 fix for a craptop that's not worth a dime. You should assume he's bad at expressing it or wants to willfully ignore any counterargument.
*shrug*. I guess I should have just refused. I could use the money, though, I needed groceries.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
It's a bit frustrating to do work for someone, that tries to pay as little as possible, and they have unrealistic expectations, because they don't really have a huge grasp on the technology.

This is one of the most difficult aspects of my work in IT. I've bounced between corporate jobs (publicly & privately-owned) & freelance and finding customers who have both the available budget to spend AND the willingness to use it can be pretty tricky. Many companies don't realize how much money they're losing by having people sit around on old, slow equipment all day. The standard argument is that the paychecks are already an allocated part of the business budget, whereas replacement equipment is not, but the money all comes from the same pool, no matter how you divide it up, and paying people to sit around waiting for slow-booting & slow-running computers all day long will eventually eat into the bottom line.

A big part of my job is doing Powerpoint presentations to convince people to buy stuff they need. "Affording it" is a lame excuses for a business, because every minute that someone is on the clock is another dollar for a paycheck, electricity, lighting, computers, equipment, etc. I try to avoid cheapskates (and crazy customers) for exactly that reason. The best customers are the ones who have a budget & are willing to use it because they know it affects their bottom line & helps them stay competitive. I've had to fire customers in the past because the frustration level got to the point where it was just too high & it was like pulling teeth to get any work approved.

We can talk cash flow & capital expenses & whatnot all day long, but the bottom line is that nearly every company in today's modern world is affected and/or driven by computers, and the better your computer game is, the better your company is. I recently did a job for a client where they outfitted their new office with brand-new computers, setup on a five-year migration plan, with ergonomic everything - chairs, monitor mounts, keyboards, etc. They realized that their human assets was where their gold really lies & invested accordingly. Nothing insane, but you can get a 27" 1080p LED monitor for like $150 these days, along with a good keyboard & mouse, adjustable monitor mounts, and ergonomic chairs, and create a MUCH better working experience for the users than 90% of the companies out there, which in turn pays off because happy workers work harder, partially because their work environment is better, and I'd say mostly because they feel cared about & valued by their company.

Managing customer expectations is one of the biggest parts of my job as well. And sometimes you get customers exactly like you ran into...they're cheap, they don't really understand what they want, aren't willing to learn, and don't clearly see (or want to see) how it's affecting their business, and have unrealistic expectations as a result. You can do things like Option #1 (buy a new replacement laptop for $399) or Option #2 (upgrade their current model, along with an SSD, to make the upgrade worth it), or Option #3 (do the free Win10 upgrade with no hardware upgrades & suffer), and then they're shocked that the option they chose is terrible.

One of my mentors taught me an extremely valuable lesson, which is that I really only have just 2 jobs in the world of IT:

1. Make recommendations
2. Implement the desired option

This was really hard for me for many years because it drove me NUTS when people picked option #3 - the bare minimum - and then complained about it in shock when the rollout occurred. This is why I'm such a big fan of CYA communication now...I always keep an email paper trail with all stakeholders on it, with clear explanations, limited bullet points, and visual graphics to help aid the communication of the core ideas in whatever project I'm working on. The choices often boil down to just 4 routes:

1. Do nothing & continue as-is
2. Do it right & solve the problem
3. Do it cheap & solve the problem in a bare-minimum way
4. Do it in the worst way possible & then be surprised when things don't work great

It's absolutely incredible how many companies will go with option #4 above. Sometimes it's a budgeting issue & they have to go with option #1 & just put the project on pause for the time being. Sometimes the stars align & you get everything you want to do the job perfect & it comes out amazing & is delivered on-time & on-budget & everyone's happy. Sometimes they have to go with option #3 & just get out of a pinch & that's the situation based on the available resources. And sometimes you get stuck in the situation you've found yourself in, where they're not willing to invest in their own business & are upset with the results you gave them, when they knew, going in, that the results were going to be sub-par. Which is why I keep my CYA documents via email, with multiple people in the email chain, with clear explanations using easy visuals as much as possible.

It can be a pain sometimes. On the flip side, people pay me to play with computers, which is what I do for free at home anyway, so that kind of makes up for the hassles, lol.
 
Reactions: VirtualLarry

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,806
29,557
146
I think that I know which ones you're talking about. 11.6", AMD C-60 APU, 2GB/4GB RAM, 320GB/500GB HDD and Win7 64-bit? I had one of those systems, I used it as a throwaway, if I lost it, I took it to the Hospital. Anyways, it was a dog with the stock 5400RPM HDD, and was (marginally) better with a 120GB SSD in it. Eventually, "software creep" made it hard to use for anything useful, and couldn't Skype any more. Mine died when I had it on my bed, and spilled some lemonade into the cooling vents. Whoops. I missed it, a little bit. Was a good little (slow) laptop, while it lasted.

Got it for $180 (half price, more or less) on clearance at a Target one year, a few years back (well, probably 4-5 years ago).

brah, I wouldn't do no 11.6". This thing is 15" (maybe 17" actually because it has full-size keyboard, with number pad--important for me).
All of the other specs are correct I think, lol.

let's see...Acer 5253-BZ661 (Acer model # P5WE6)
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
You failed when you accepted the job for which the client had unrealistic expectations. You should have issued a written quote with a recommendation for a new machine that would meet their needs. And then walked away explaining you cannot in good conscience accept the wasted money for a pointless job.

Clients tend to think they know better. They ignore recommendations, waste their money on band aide fixes, end up disappointed and then inevitably blame you. Even if you are trying to help someone on a budget, it's better to properly educate and be realistic with them. That's at least half of a tech's actual job.

Two tricks:

1. CYA documents that clearly explain the outcome of the decisions. Sometimes you have to do dumb jobs because you need the money or want to build up a relationship with the client or are looking for referrals or whatever. I've done plenty of stupid jobs & breaking-even jobs in my time, unfortunately!

2. Designing the discussions (ex. presentations) to funnel customers into thinking that the best way was THEIR idea, or presenting the options in such a way that they can be the hero for choosing the (obviously) right way, rather than you "dictating" what the best option is. There are surprisingly number of narcissists & sociopaths in the world of management (ime, at least) & learning how to appropriately deal with their worldviews in order to get the outcome you desire can be extremely beneficial. It's manipulation, sure, but not for malicious intentions, lol! The trick is to present the data & let the facts speak for themselves. If you can learn how to do it right, in a clear & understandable manner, then people get involved & invested because they pipe up with "well we obviously should be doing it THIS way, duh!". Doesn't work 100% of the time, but human nature being what it is, it's a good trick I've added to my toolbelt to help with getting the customer to make the best decision given their circumstances & resources.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
brah, I wouldn't do no 11.6". This thing is 15" (maybe 17" actually because it has full-size keyboard, with number pad--important for me).
All of the other specs are correct I think, lol.

let's see...Acer 5253-BZ661 (Acer model # P5WE6)
That looks like a bigger brother or cousin to the little netbook that I got. I think mine actually was called a "Netbook".
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
That looks like a bigger brother or cousin to the little netbook that I got. I think mine actually was called a "Netbook".

Oooooh my gosh. I just upgraded a Netbook the other day to the latest Win10 1909-whatever update. It had so little space on the soldered eMMC that it asked me to put in a USB card for temp space. Fortunately the customer was OK with me doing a full Win10 reset (wipe the drive & all), so I bypassed that whole headache. I really wanted to do a full-disk compression on it, but the little chip in the laptop was so slow that I didn't want to risk it turning into a slug. Fortunately, anything with an SSD can typically run Win10 somewhat reasonably passably well, so it was actually a pretty decent little machine after all was said & done.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
"If you can learn how to do it right, in a clear & understandable manner, then people get involved & invested because they pipe up with "well we obviously should be doing it THIS way, duh!"
Hmm, I just realized, that some of the slowness, could be caused by, not just the slowness of the HDD, but also the slowness of the HDD, combined with the Norton constantly scanning stuff on-demand. Meaning, lots of disk I/O, that could be minimized (latency) or maximized (random I/O bandwidth) with an SSD.

I really wish that I had present this, not separately, initially, and breaking down the costs, like I would on a receipt, but rather, as a complete "package deal", with the image backups, SSD installation, Win10 in-place upgrade, and more image backups. For say, $250.

Then again, that was before I knew what APU was in this laptop. They probably would have felt double-bad, about spending $250.

Or maybe not, if the SSD's quickness caused them to think that the laptop was faster.

I did, at one point, sell them an older (2-3 year old) Asus laptop, with a dual-core Bay Trail Atom, that was in really good shape, and it had a 480GB SATA 2.5" SSD in it. They were impressed by that laptop. Maybe I can help them evoke that memory.

Edit: Oh, and THANK YOU for everyone's wisdom on these matters. Kaido especially, for sharing that.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Just griping, I guess. After I spent like 8.5 hours total on the thing, and made a $100, that's like, what, $12/hr? Kind of like working minimum wage! But for tech-support.

Anyways, I should leave the griping to Boomer and Olds, they deserve it more, I guess. (*)

(*) I meant, let them gripe, not griping about them.
Be honest, I wouldn't call it that number of hours of work when you can turn around and do something else while windows is installing?
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Does anyone have some suggestions, to make the customer happier?

1) Full refund,
2) Offer to do labor to install the software onto a new laptop, for no additional cost. But they would have to have original install media, and proof of licensing or proof of purchase.
3) Rinse my hands of this whole thing, and if they buy a new laptop, tell them to take it to BestBuy and let them install the software for them.
4) Tell them to get an IT person at their work.
Tell them fuck off and have a nice day.


That is a customer that literally no one wants. They are a net loss. They are the reason why renters do background checks and credit checks on tenants.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
Tell them fuck off and have a nice day.

That is a customer that literally no one wants. They are a net loss. They are the reason why renters do background checks and credit checks on tenants.
Well, I don't know about that. The client has been good to me, they are basically family friends, but I think that they try to take advantage sometimes, in terms of what they're willing to pay for things. Or maybe, they thought that I could pull off a miracle with their 8-year-old laptop. I mean, I'm good, but short of throwing extra hardware at it, I'm not that good. That being said, there are a few things in Win10 that could be optimized. All of those little "apps" that load by default in the background, could shut all of those off. I probably should have done that. Again though, wasn't sure what the business software needed as far as Win10 features to support it.

Someone posted this in CPUs and Overclocking.
no one online has ever been able to help me and 90% of PC repair places are a scam.
Well, at least I'm not a scam, at least I don't think so. This client trusts me, and I've never intentionally tried to lead them wrong, although, I'm not perfect in my decision-making, and sometimes, I just do what I'm asked to do, without considering the over-arching picture, of whether or not I should do that upgrade, or that repair.

The client had specific requirements, and I met them, but unfortunately, the end result was a laptop that ended up a bit on the slower side. Of course, it seemed a bit slow to start with, so I don't know specifically that it got that much slow-er, but declining the SSD resulted in basically the laptop most definitely not "shining", in the performance dept.

Personally, an SSD would be worth trying, if the client truly doesn't want to buy another laptop. Maybe I could convince them to try a 256GB-class SATA 2.5" SSD, like a BX500, for $30 for the SSD + $20 cloning.

Edit: I just offered to clone the HDD to a 256GB-class SSD, and pop it in the laptop, for $30, the cost of the SSD. I felt so bad, that they weren't totally happy with the laptop's performance. They did say that they didn't know how it would turn out, and I told them that I didn't either, I figured it would be similar to Windows 7, I didn't realize that it would be slower. I did mention that Windows 10 is "sort of designed for SSDs", and that it, by default, loads "background apps", that can be disabled from loading, and told them that I would guide them through it. (Or I'll just disable them from auto-loading, if they bring it over.)
 
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clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,255
403
126
Client sounds like a dumbass and pain to deal with. I'd decline any future work with him/her. Actually I'd rather eat poop than fix computers for people but more power to you if you enjoy it man.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,305
10,804
136
the only available upgrade is a ssd to prolong the inevitable


Funny I still have and use a vintage 2007 Dell 1.2 Ghz I-3 8gb DDR3-1000 laptop booting off a Samsung 830 256gb SSD. Came with Win 7 Pro, upgraded RAM from 4gb's to 8 & cloned it to the SSD shortly after purchase then upgraded first to 8/8.1 Pro and then 10 Pro which its running now.

Works fine and is still amazingly snappy even now but its 99% due to the SSD... also note I did notice a performance increase after going to 10 BUT it was quite awhile with 8.1 so really that's what I'm comparing to.
 
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Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,892
2,135
126
Learned early in my career that PC repair is not a path to a thriving business.

Managed services and support contracts are where the money is at.
 
Reactions: DAPUNISHER

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,818
21,566
146
Learned early in my career that PC repair is not a path to a thriving business.

Managed services and support contracts are where the money is at.
Yup. repair alone is feast or famine. You want your hand in their pocket every month, or whatever your payment cycle is.
 
Reactions: VirtualLarry

pete6032

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2010
7,578
3,123
136
Did the client have to pay $100 for a Win 10 key? If so, lol that they would shell out $100 for Win 10 but not $60 for an SSD.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
126
honest and no offense, but if you were a wise man you would have turned down the job - or at least explain WHY it cant be done.
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,803
581
126
You really should be disappointed in yourself for not dumping a client that costs more than they're worth.
 
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