[PCGAMESHARDWARE.DE] DOOM Benchmarks

[railven]

I'm not accusing id of taking a bribe, I am open to the possibilities that several things could have happened, one of which is the Pascal marketing deal. Are you saying it's an impossibility?

Sure, AMD can and does drop the ball. But here?

How does AMD decide to regress back to an OpenGL version released from 2012 when it was running the newer version just fine in Beta 2 weeks prior? AMD does not control Bethesda/ID Software's final build. -_-

We're talking an out-date OpenGL that's missing a lot of newer extensions that enhance performance here.

I am not the first to notice this, many folks have asked ID Software this question on social media, they aren't saying anything as to why it happened.

Even some reviewers noticed it, because they played the beta as well as some of us here.

https://youtu.be/oYLVcZCjXSI?t=4m06s

And oh, when the game finally gets updated to fix it, by putting back OpenGL 4.5 for AMD, make sure you guys are here to say stuff like "oh, it must have been an honest mistake, surely!!"

Another review: http://www.techspot.com/review/1173-doom-benchmarks/page6.html



Can you even think for a moment if this happened to NV? Imagine a DX game, which had a beta 2 weeks before launch, running DX11 great for NV/AMD... then it releases, it reverts to DX10 for NV and performance is crippled. Even a non-biased person would have to raise a real concern as to why it happened, no? Now let's say that studio went on stage with AMD hyping up AMD GPUs... what's a logical person to think of such a thing? Come on, be honest.

So basically you're still accusing id of taking a bribe? Gotcha.

But I'll go along with these accusations: You're going to argue to me that NV paid/convinced id to sabotage SOME not ALL of AMD's hardware?

So my only options are:
A) id is incompetent
B) AMD is incompetent
C) NV is bribing people

I'll take D)
NV got access to code and optimized for it.

Isn't that what you're saying happened with Oxide? But I guess you'd rather toss id into the dog house because poor AMD got borked performance on SOME cards. 3 days after launch AMD fixed performance issues on the select cards. Funny thing that.

 

[Headfoot]

Seems like if they had actually enabled all the options in the beta, then all of those options could have gotten tested, and they'd be working on this issue 2-3 weeks ahead of release instead of after. These extremely limited betas are leaving value on the table for the developer

 

[Ma_Deuce]

So basically you're still accusing id of taking a bribe? Gotcha.

But I'll go along with these accusations: You're going to argue to me that NV paid/convinced id to sabotage SOME not ALL of AMD's hardware?

So my only options are:
A) id is incompetent
B) AMD is incompetent
C) NV is bribing people

I'll take D)
NV got access to code and optimized for it.

I'm having a hard time understanding why affecting all of AMD's hardware is a prerequisite for any kind of foul play.

Also, How does nv optimizing their drivers cause AMD performance to regress from beta to release?

 

[railven]

I'm having a hard time understanding why affecting all of AMD's hardware is a prerequisite for any kind of foul play.

NV must have changed their game plan. I guess from years of sabotaging ALL of AMD's hardware they decided, "let's just do a few."

Also, How does nv optimizing their drivers cause AMD performance to regress from beta to release?

Ball is in your court:
Show regression from Beta to Final. Not opinions, actual evidence.

 

[xthetenth]

And that comes from someone who is defending Oxide and AMD. :sneaky:

Because when I think comparable situation to unexpected and massive performance regressions, I think source code access, allowing vendors to write their own pathways, and all that. Please think your comparisons through so that you might actually add content for once.

I'll take D)
NV got access to code and optimized for it.

Isn't that what you're saying happened with Oxide? But I guess you'd rather toss id into the dog house because poor AMD got borked performance on SOME cards. 3 days after launch AMD fixed performance issues on the select cards. Funny thing that.

Ashes is a different case simply because it's a matter of greater increases. That's an example of positive developer cooperation because it's a net win. This is a case of a massive regression not getting communicated in time. That's not good work and looks sketchy as hell because it's a strong possibility they prioritized their sponsor. Compare async compute, where Oxide talked with NV, had NV code in their engine, and set things to get the best performance they could out of NV chips.

 

[railven]

Ashes is a different case simply because it's a matter of greater increases. That's an example of positive developer cooperation because it's a net win. This is a case of a massive regression not getting communicated in time. That's not good work and looks sketchy as hell because it's a strong possibility they prioritized their sponsor. Compare async compute, where Oxide talked with NV, had NV code in their engine, and set things to get the best performance they could out of NV chips.

Ball is in your court:
Show proof of regression. Not opinions, actual proof.

 

[Jaydip]

Rail arguing with them is waste of time, same thing happened with Fallout 4 as well where AMD fixed their performance after 2-3 weeks. These guys praises Hitman where 390X is within 3-4% of 980 Ti, that game is not broken btw its all because of some "superior" architecture.

 

[railven]

Rail arguing with them is waste of time, same thing happened with Fallout 4 as well where AMD fixed their performance after 2-3 weeks. These guys praises Hitman where 390X is within 3-4% of 980 Ti, that game is not broken btw its all because of some "superior" architecture.

I wouldn't use Fallout 4 as an example. That was NV hindering AMD with over-tessellation. Granted I don't think AMD's solution to hinder tess without the user's consent was appropriate (it taints their driver performance to me going forward on any Gameworks game miracle driver).

However, it is getting tiresome when even non-Gamework titles are being accused of being money-hatted. If I was ever this accusatory as an AMD supporter, my apologies.

All it does is sour an otherwise excellent game launch and then it just reverberates until it's a fact.

 

[Mr. President]

However, it is getting tiresome when even non-Gamework titles are being accused of being money-hatted. If I was ever this accusatory as an AMD supporter, my apologies.

The people throwing around bribery claims will always ignore that the games they accuse are firstly designed around AMD based console hardware.

nvidia has, what, 25% of the overall market?

 

[exar333]

The people throwing around bribery claims will always ignore that the games they accuse are firstly designed around AMD based console hardware.

nvidia has, what, 25% of the overall market?

NV has almost 80% of discrete GPUs though.... Overall, the console market would skew it in the direction you quote though. I would agree with that, but in the PC gaming space, NV has a lot more clout.

 

[Bacon1]

NV must have changed their game plan. I guess from years of sabotaging ALL of AMD's hardware they decided, "let's just do a few."

Wait, so are you saying that Fiji outsold Hawaii now? Because it effected Hawaii and not Fiji.

 

[railven]

Wait, so are you saying that Fiji outsold Hawaii now? Because it effected Hawaii and not Fiji.

If that's what your head concluded I said, I won't even bother trying to convince you otherwise.

 

[Bacon1]

If that's what your head concluded I said, I won't even bother trying to convince you otherwise.

Well you are stating Hawaii = "just a few". Since Fiji wasn't effected it must not be "just a few" and be the larger amount right? Or what are you trying to say because saying Hawaii = "just a few" makes absolutely no sense when its AMD's most popular series.

 

[Despoiler]

This game runs great on my rig. Mins are 80-90. Max are 120-140. The game plays fast and looks great. Gameplay is so retro refreshing. Takes me back to a simpler time when things were properly executed for what they were. The net result is Doom is just fun.

 

[railven]

Well you are stating Hawaii = "just a few". Since Fiji wasn't effected it must not be "just a few" and be the larger amount right? Or what are you trying to say because saying Hawaii = "just a few" makes absolutely no sense when its AMD's most popular series.

Mental note: make sure to use a /s when using a fabricated conversation between NV and id.

Or do you want to focus on my actual post, not where I resorted to sarcasm to rebuttal someone's defense of selective hinderance.

Just going to take Jaydip's advice. DOOM is a great game, too bad some AMD fans had to wait 3 days to enjoy it and took to crapping all over it because their prefered brand dropped the ball on them, I'm sorry I mean id took a bribe from NV.

 

[AtenRa]

NV has almost 80% of discrete GPUs though.... Overall, the console market would skew it in the direction you quote though. I would agree with that, but in the PC gaming space, NV has a lot more clout.

80% was volume shipping for a single quarter.

 

[Innokentij]

The AMD problem was fixed after 2 drivers for doom, the day 1 and the ops we didnt do oure jobb one that came after.

 

[David_k]

the day 1 and the ops we didnt do oure jobb one that came after.

 

[pcmax]

Actually overclocked my Gigabyte GTX 770 4GB in anticipation of this game for the first time in 3 years however with everything I can set on Ultra it has absolutely no lag whatsoever. That being said from an OG Doom player this game is boring 90 minutes in on Ultra-Violence tell me it gets better.

 

[Ma_Deuce]

NV must have changed their game plan. I guess from years of sabotaging ALL of AMD's hardware they decided, "let's just do a few."



Ball is in your court:
Show regression from Beta to Final. Not opinions, actual evidence.

LOL, get over yourself. I'm not here to do your homework for you. You are claiming that it can't possibly be any kind of behind the scenes foul play. Your theory is no better than anyone else's. People see a 960 suddenly smoking a 290x and they are going to start scratching their heads.

What you call "selective hinderance" happens every day across the full spectrum of business. I highly doubt you are so naive to think that it's not ever happening in the VGA business.

Mental note: make sure to use a /s when using a fabricated conversation between NV and id.

Or do you want to focus on my actual post, not where I resorted to sarcasm to rebuttal someone's defense of selective hinderance.

Just going to take Jaydip's advice. DOOM is a great game, too bad some AMD fans had to wait 3 days to enjoy it and took to crapping all over it because their prefered brand dropped the ball on them, I'm sorry I mean id took a bribe from NV.

Now I'm sure you have concrete evidence that someone's "preferred brand" dropped the ball. I mean, now way would you ever claim something on a gut feeling without having proof to back it up.

 

[railven]

LOL, get over yourself.

Why would I ever get over myself?

Now I'm sure you have concrete evidence that someone's "preferred brand" dropped the ball. I mean, now way would you ever claim something on a gut feeling without having proof to back it up.

I've owned AMD for years. I know the feeling of watching the NV users cheer day 1 performance. For years I just said "meh, I don't even play games day 1."

I'm speaking from experience, not gut feeling.

 

[airfathaaaaa]

Mental note: make sure to use a /s when using a fabricated conversation between NV and id.

Or do you want to focus on my actual post, not where I resorted to sarcasm to rebuttal someone's defense of selective hinderance.

Just going to take Jaydip's advice. DOOM is a great game, too bad some AMD fans had to wait 3 days to enjoy it and took to crapping all over it because their prefered brand dropped the ball on them, I'm sorry I mean id took a bribe from NV.

you remember back in 2011 when rage was released and it was the most horrible game you could every play on amd cards?
you remember how id was silent for days and people assumed it was amd fault?
this was carmack statement some days after about the development of rage

We were quite happy with the performance improvements that we had made on AMD hardware in the months before launch," he said. We had made significant internal changes to cater to what AMD engineers said would allow the highest performance with their driver and hardware architectures, and we went back and forth with custom extensions and driver versions."

ring any bells?
D:

and yet the game came out broken for most of the amd cards

 

[railven]

you remember back in 2011 when rage was released and it was the most horrible game you could every play on amd cards?
you remember how id was silent for days and people assumed it was amd fault?
this was carmack statement some days after about the development of rage



ring any bells?
D:

and yet the game came out broken for most of the amd cards

I remember, and I remember that interview. Why didn't you quote him throwing AMD/NV under the bus?

"We knew that all older AMD drivers, and some Nvidia drivers would have problems with the game, but we were running well in-house on all of our test systems. When launch day came around and the wrong driver got released, half of our PC customers got a product that basically didn't work. The fact that the working driver has incompatibilities with other titles doesn't help either. Issues with older / lower end /exotic setups are to be expected on a PC release, but we were not happy with the experience on what should be prime platforms."

Considering AMD's hardship were far worse when that game came out, I'm pretty sure who dropped the ball there. Unless, id took another bribe and they themselves released the wrong driver?

I'm glad I had a 2GB Radeon HD 5870 at the time because I was essentially capable of loading all the textures to memory with a custom CFG. Not everyone was as fortunate as me.

 

[guskline]

I am running the Doom campaign on both of my rigs below. game play has been fine on both. I would expect the GTX980TI to be faster since the game does not support a CF profile for my 290s. The single 290 is handling the game well at 2560 x 1440. I forget what settings it is ( I let the program set them).

I had one freeze with the 290 rig and think it might have been the internet connection with steam. Hasn't happen since. Both rigs are using the latest drivers.

 

[RussianSensation]

The AMD problem was fixed after 2 drivers for doom, the day 1 and the ops we didnt do oure jobb one that came after.

Ya, well worth it saving $300 USD since R9 290 beats $700 780Ti after the driver fix. Let's not forget all the AAA games in 2015-2016 where 780/780Ti face-planted against 290/290X.

16.5.2.1 Drivers

Oh, and a confirmation that 2GB cards are dead and 3GB limits 780/780Ti.

Wouldn't be surprised if this is all fixed after a driver update, or game update. .

:thumbsup: Yup, and probably because the developer didn't test it on Hawaii cards and inform AMD on time that the game had issues before the release of the final code. That would explain why Hawaii cards did so well in the Beta and suddenly bombed in the final release. AMD didn't have enough time to fix the performance before launch.

A driver increased performance where now an R9 290 beats a 780Ti.