[pcper] Interview: AMD's Richard Huddy

[Mand]

The thing is that nVidia could use a-sync and the new option in the DP standard to make a variable framerate solution but AMD can't use the G-sync sollution.
And I as a customer want a product that don't lock me to one GPU vendor.

They theoretically could, sure. But they won't, because they feel they have a better solution.

Variable refresh will lock your GPU choice, period. Should it be that way? Maybe, maybe not. But it will, just as surely as your choice of motherboard defines what processors fit in it.

 

[Grooveriding]

The thing is that nVidia could use a-sync and the new option in the DP standard to make a variable framerate solution but AMD can't use the G-sync sollution.
And I as a customer want a product that don't lock me to one GPU vendor.

I think they will inevitably have to go that way if async/freesync delivers the goods. Gsync is proprietary and requires an expensive module in every monitor to support it. They've also said that the module needs to be tuned on a per monitor basis. So every monitor model needs a specifically tuned module to provide support. This will keep the cost high and in a narrow selection of monitors.

Contrast that against what is a capability of the standard DP port available in all new monitors and support for adaptive refresh rate handled on the GPU end.

 

[DarkKnightDude]

To reviewers Sept/Oct and release Jan/Feb.

He also said that an entire lineup of GPUs would be available at the time these monitors hit the market that support A-sync (currently only GCN 1.1 gpus support it, they're the only ones with the "required complexity" in the display controllers atm). Pretty much confirming the next gen.

Can't believe I missed this, yeah basically confirmed new AMD cards for this fall. Probably going to be 28nm again.

 

[Despoiler]

So, pls explain how nVidia could have fixed their "TressFX" problem without having access to the game source code?



So, why did Nixxes apologize for the game quality?
Maybe Mr. Huddy is lying? Fact is nVidia had only access to the final game a few days prior launch. They were never able to optimize for this.

They did have access to the source code. It's even in their apology that they had access to the source code the entire time. It's just that the gold build they got didn't run like the one before it. As they were given the source code they could and did fix their issues. ie not Gameworks.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/...e-a-look-at-tomb-raider/post/3752523/#3752523

 

[Techhog]

I'm still not clear why AMD thinks it deserves access to Gameworks code just because a game developer is using it.

That's fine, but completely locking the game off from AMD until it's finished just to make it look like AMD failed to optimize drivers for the game? Not cool. Some of you guys are bringing up Gaming Evolved, but this problem clearly doesn't happen with that. How many games does AMD have a massive advantage in?

 

[KaRLiToS]

I'm about to ditch PC gaming. Tired of all this crap.
I'm tired or seing AMD and Nvidia fight together.
I'm tired to see them brake a game intentionnally in order to look better from their competitor.

In the end, it's the consumer that is the victim of all these fights.

 

[sontin]

They did have access to the source code. It's even in their apology that they had access to the source code the entire time. It's just that the gold build they got didn't run like the one before it. As they were given the source code they could and did fix their issues. ie not Gameworks.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/...e-a-look-at-tomb-raider/post/3752523/#3752523

They never wrote "source code".
I find "game code" and "final build". And the "final build" was the only version with the new "ultra detail" settings:

We know of real examples where we have actually explicitly been forbidden from seeing builds—forget source code, even just binary builds—of games that include high-end effects,"

http://techreport.com/news/26521/nvidia-responds-to-amd-gameworks-allegations

 

[3DVagabond]

Ok, wait a minute.

Explain to me how this make any sense?

It doesn't. Somebody has been feeding him misinformation and he's bought into it.

 

[3DVagabond]

There won't be any "A-Sync" monitors. There will be G-Sync monitors, and there will be FreeSync monitors (maybe - it'd be nice if EVEN ONE display partner were announced as being on board with making a product. If they really were getting them into reviewers' hands in September, you'd think that a hardware partner might have been announced just three months away? Hmmm....). Just like there are Intel motherboards and AMD motherboards, and nobody seems to gripe when we can't jam a different company's CPU into it.

You have it backwards. A-Sync is the monitor standard, Free-Sync is what AMD does with their cards and drivers to leverage A-Sync for variable real time refresh.

 

[RussianSensation]

Can't believe I missed this, yeah basically confirmed new AMD cards for this fall. Probably going to be 28nm again.

He said next gen will be available by the time the monitors hit the market. Then he said they should be available around Jan/Feb 2015. That doesn't confirm that AMD's next gen will come in Oct/Nov 2014.

As far as G-Sync vs. FreeSync/A-Sync, I would very much like an industry standard solution, or otherwise I spend $1000+ on a 4K monitor and get locked down for 6-7 years to a specific GPU vendor to get the benefits?? No thanks.

Still, waiting for GPUs to get much faster and for quality 4K monitors above 30" to come down in price before I consider a monitor upgrade. At this pace, looks like I may need to wait until Pascal in 2016-2017. By that time we will know what the market desires in terms of G-Sync vs. A-Sync. Right now the G-Sync monitors have a very large price premium and are TN-based. Not interested.

 

[RussianSensation]

I'm about to ditch PC gaming. Tired of all this crap.
I'm tired or seing AMD and Nvidia fight together.
I'm tired to see them brake a game intentionnally in order to look better from their competitor.

In the end, it's the consumer that is the victim of all these fights.

Don't quit PC gaming. Take 6 months off all PC gaming forums and see how you feel. I did that because of work requirements but it also opened a new perspective. If you don't want to deal with all the fanboism online, you can just enjoy gaming and new hardware, and you can say visit the PC Gaming section where the discussion is about the games themselves.

If you start focusing on the games rather than the hardware driving it, you might even upgrade less frequently.

 

[BrightCandle]

This sort of petty cheating has been happening for a decade. Both parties have been caught cheating benchmarks time and time again. The way its being done is relatively new but it doesn't really matter how you go about constraining them they will find a way to cheat. Its in both these companies nature to do so.

Its better now than it has been in the psst with outright cheating benchmarks by not even rendering the scene fully. If this sort of thing gets you riled up enough to give up on PC gaming...this is mild compared to the rubbish they pulled years ago. Its not like the consoles are immune from it either, massive war of words over there as well. None of it has a massive impact honestly.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Right now the G-Sync monitors have a very large price premium and are TN-based. Not interested.

I think you kind of need the response time of TN to do high refresh rates without really awful motion blur. Eizo fixes this with strobing on that VA panel, but will that play nice with variable refresh?

I don't mind TN that much, it'll be interesting to see if there will be ~30-60 Hz displays with variable refresh priced like normal ones.

 

[f1sherman]

I'm pretty sure that the most of this AMD's "Give us the source code!" is due to their concern that Nvidia might change their libraries in the future,
therefore affecting performance and whatnot. And AMD not wanting to constantly watch out and optimize against new Ganeworks builds.

And not due to AMD's inability to optimize without the source code against the binaries.

"Historically, in all the games we've worked with, we don't typically need the source code to a game to optimize for it," he told me. "We don't typically have the source code to most games. Our driver engineers typically—actually almost never have looked game source code. So that's not really the operating model."

I asked whether, prior to the establishment of the GameWorks licensing model, AMD would have had access to the code for games with Nvidia middleware. "No, I don't think so," Cebenoyan replied. "In general, most game developers don't really give people source code, anyway.

John McDonald
‏@basisspace
@killyourfm @ExtremeTech @Raton_Laveur the fact that AMD doesn't get source code doesn't preclude the ability to analyze and optimize. 1/

driver still sees the complete call sequence and shaders, which is enough for opto 2/2

https://twitter.com/basisspace/status/471368809924665346

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

He said next gen will be available by the time the monitors hit the market. Then he said they should be available around Jan/Feb 2015. That doesn't confirm that AMD's next gen will come in Oct/Nov 2014.

The only reasonable time frame for them to launch a new line is Oct/November 2014 if they want it to be available in sync with hardware coming out in Jan/Feb 2015. What was the last GPU that launched in Jan/Feb?

 

[GaiaHunter]

The only reasonable time frame for them to launch a new line is Oct/November 2014 if they want it to be available in sync with hardware coming out in Jan/Feb 2015. What was the last GPU that launched in Jan/Feb?

7970.

 

[sontin]

I'm pretty sure that the most of this AMD's "Give us the source code!" is due to their concern that Nvidia might change their libraries in the future,
therefore affecting performance and whatnot. And AMD not wanting to constantly watch out and optimize against new Ganeworks builds.

And not due to AMD's inability to optimize without the source code against the binaries.

Which is not different from AMD's behaviour.

I think it has more to do with having access to the R&D ressources of your competition than anything else. So they dont need to invest in the same techniques and get the whole benefit from it.

 

[DeathReborn]

I'm about to ditch PC gaming. Tired of all this crap.
I'm tired or seing AMD and Nvidia fight together.
I'm tired to see them brake a game intentionnally in order to look better from their competitor.

In the end, it's the consumer that is the victim of all these fights.

It's worse for consoles where you will never see Halo on the PS4 or Gran Turismo on the XBONE but on the PC you can play Watch Dogs/Tomb Raider/(Insert Game Here) on both AMD & Nvidia.

As has been suggested just avoid Graphics/GPU forums/sections of forums and focus on the games instead.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

7970.

I take it back then. Guess they can ship a successful product in the dead zone.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

If you have a part with the best performance you can ship it at any time.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

If you have a part with the best performance you can ship it at any time.

My guess is that enthusiast level products are decoupled from the seasonal sales fluctuations. Speaking with a few retailers, I got the image that January/February are the dry months for most consumer electronics.

 

[Despoiler]

They never wrote "source code".
I find "game code" and "final build". And the "final build" was the only version with the new "ultra detail" settings:
http://techreport.com/news/26521/nvidia-responds-to-amd-gameworks-allegations

I don't even get your point. We are talking about source code availability. In the article you just posted it even says

The terms do, however, forbid developers from sharing Nvidia's GameWorks middleware code—which, when that code is integrated into a game engine, may mean AMD doesn't get access to that portion of a game's source code.

The fact is that TressFX source code is available in AMD's SDK. Nvidia can rewrite the source to work better on their hardware if they choose. That is not possible with Gameworks middleware code. Again, this is industry standard. Everyone has all of their source available in their SDKs, until Gameworks.

 

[sontin]

I don't even get your point. We are talking about source code availability.

For Tomb Raider.

The fact is that TressFX source code is available in AMD's SDK. Nvidia can rewrite the source to work better on their hardware if they choose. That is not possible with Gameworks middleware code. Again, this is industry standard. Everyone has all of their source available in their SDKs, until Gameworks.

TressFX was released after Tomb Raider. They couldn't have "rewritten the source" because they had no access to the source code of the game and TressFX.

AMD complains about this exact same behaviour.

 

[AnandThenMan]

That is not possible with Gameworks middleware code. Again, this is industry standard. Everyone has all of their source available in their SDKs, until Gameworks.

The situation was so egregious that according to Huddy (I believe what he says here) Nvidia did back down in some instances and started supplying source instead of "black box" DLLs. But that was only to certain devs and certainly not available to AMD.

Really really low blow by Nvidia here.

TressFX was released after Tomb Raider. They couldn't have "rewritten the source" because they had no access to the source code of the game and TressFX.

AMD complains about this exact same behaviour.

You are misinformed and obviously did not watch the video.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The situation was so egregious that according to Huddy (I believe what he says here) Nvidia did back down in some instances and started supplying source instead of "black box" DLLs. But that was only to certain devs and certainly not available to AMD.

Really really low blow by Nvidia here.

You are misinformed and obviously did not watch the video.

The video is a oneside view of the story. It couldnt be more biased. So its worrying in the term of source critisism that you blindly believe it.

AMD does exactly the same as nVidia.