[pcper] Interview: AMD's Richard Huddy

[Mand]

I think a-sync will quickly eclipse g-sync anyways, proprietary is not going to go anywhere versus a verified VESA standard.

FreeSync, which is the actual functional implementation that contains but also goes beyond Adaptive Sync (the part that is in the VESA standard), is just as proprietary.

Nobody will make an A-Sync display, because it's not enough to get to a functional product. Some people might make a FreeSync display. And that display won't work with an Nvidia GPU.

The claims about proprietaryness are utter nonsense, discredited by AMD's own FAQs about FreeSync. There is no evidence whatsoever that Nvidia is charging display manufacturers for G-Sync - quite the opposite, they're expending significant amount of internal design and development time helping them along. And FreeSync will be just as platform-locked as G-Sync. In order to use it, you will need an AMD GPU.

And even if I were wrong about all of that, open does not always win in standards battles against proprietary. I bet you have a Blu-Ray player and not an HD-DVD player. Blu-Ray is a proprietary standard, HD-DVD was open. I say is and was, because Blu-Ray won, and HD-DVD is now dead.

 

[Despoiler]

Sure, after the game was released and they could use an unstable version to make performance comparision:
http://community.amd.com/community/...ider-launches-with-revolutionary-tressfx-hair

BTW: An internal benchmark is essential for a Gaming Evolved title - surprise, surprise:
http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Planning-Open-Source-GameWorks-Competitor-Mantle-Linux

The TressFX source code is available to anyone. That's how Nvidia fixed the problems they were having with it. ie not the same as Gameworks.

 

[sirroman]

Sure, after the game was released and they could use an unstable version to make performance comparision:
http://community.amd.com/community/...ider-launches-with-revolutionary-tressfx-hair

Mr. Huddy addressed that in the interview... He says that the developer had source code and there was no contractual obligation that prevented nvidia from optimizing tressfx.

Which could mean that:

• AMD wanted to optimize for watch dogs but couldn't.
• Nvidia could optimize for tomb raider but didn't want to.

We should start to ponder if nvidia intentionally DIDN'T optimize for gaming evolved games to put the blame on AMD and justify their own game relations (including gameworks).

Knowing nvidia, I wouldn't put that past them...

 

[sontin]

The TressFX source code is available to anyone. That's how Nvidia fixed the problems they were having with it. ie not the same as Gameworks.

So, pls explain how nVidia could have fixed their "TressFX" problem without having access to the game source code?

Mr. Huddy addressed that in the interview... He says that the developer had source code and there was no contractual obligation that prevented nvidia from optimizing tressfx.

Which could mean that:

• AMD wanted to optimize for watch dogs but couldn't.
• Nvidia could optimize for tomb raider but didn't want to.

We should start to ponder if nvidia intentionally DIDN'T optimize for gaming evolved games to put the blame on AMD and justify their own game relations (including gameworks).

Knowing nvidia, I wouldn't put that past them...

So, why did Nixxes apologize for the game quality?
Maybe Mr. Huddy is lying? Fact is nVidia had only access to the final game a few days prior launch. They were never able to optimize for this.

 

[sirroman]

Nobody will make an A-Sync display, because it's not enough to get to a functional product. Some people might make a FreeSync display. And that display won't work with an Nvidia GPU.

Ok, wait a minute.

Explain to me how this make any sense?

 

[sirroman]

So, why did Nixxes apologize for their game quality?
Maybe Mr. Huddy is lying? Fact is nVidia had only access to the final game a few days prior launch. They were never able to optimize for this.

OFC nvidia will only have the final game a few days prior launch. So did AMD.

It's called "going gold".
http://www.gamespot.com/forums/play...-does-it-mean-when-a-game-goes-gold-26614050/

Pay attention to nvidia's wording. AFAIK they never stated that they didn't have any access to TressFX during the development phase or that the code changed last minute.

If you can bring up the actual responses from nixxes/nvidia/AMD, it would be really helpful to uncover this.

 

[Grooveriding]

Ok, wait a minute.

Explain to me how this make any sense?

It doesn't. It's the same trolling we see in every thread that discusses async or freesync.

The blu-ray analogy was a doozy as well. You can plug a blu ray player into any television you buy. A gsync monitor will only work with an nvidia card, another reason it's going to become obsolete. Choosing to lock yourself to a single vendor with your monitor purchase is not something I think most gamers would want to do.

Many of us are fine using video cards from either gpu company. This is why I would never buy a gsync monitor, that and the roll-out is unbelievably slow and so far there is no indication they're going to get it into monitors that use quality panels.

Warning issued for inflammatory language.
--stahlhart

 

[Mand]

Ok, wait a minute.

Explain to me how this make any sense?

A-Sync is what is in the VESA spec, whereas FreeSync is AMD's implementation. We don't have much in the way of specifics. What we do have is AMD's statements about them:

Q: What is DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync?
A: DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync is a new addition to the DisplayPort™ 1.2a specification, ported from the embedded DisplayPort™ v1.0 specification. DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync provides an industry-standard mechanism that enables real-time adjustment of a monitor’s refresh rate of a display over a DisplayPort™ link.


Q: What is Project FreeSync?
A: Project FreeSync is an AMD effort to leverage industry standards, like DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync, to deliver dynamic refresh rates. Dynamic refresh rates synchronize the refresh rate of a compatible monitor to the framerate of a user’s AMD Radeon™ graphics to reduce or eliminate stuttering, juddering and/or tearing during gaming and video playback.


Q: How are DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync and Project FreeSync different?
A: DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync is an ingredient DisplayPort™ feature that enables real-time adjustment of monitor refresh rates required by technologies like Project FreeSync. Project FreeSync is a unique AMD hardware/software solution that utilizes DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync protocols to enable user-facing benefits: smooth, tearing-free and low-latency gameplay and video.


Q: Is DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync the industry-standard version of Project FreeSync?
A: The DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync specification was ported from the Embedded DisplayPort™ specification through a proposal to the VESA group by AMD. DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync is an ingredient feature of a DisplayPort™ link and an industry standard that enables technologies like Project FreeSync

With that in mind, read what I wrote again.

 

[Mand]

It doesn't. It's the same trolling we see in every thread that discusses async or freesync.

If you can't discuss the topic without insulting the people discussing it, you have no business here.

 

[sontin]

OFC nvidia will only have the final game a few days prior launch. So did AMD.

It's called "going gold".
http://www.gamespot.com/forums/play...-does-it-mean-when-a-game-goes-gold-26614050/

Pay attention to nvidia's wording. AFAIK they never stated that they didn't have any access to TressFX during the development phase or that the code changed last minute.

Right, paying attention:

We are aware of performance and stability issues with GeForce GPUs running Tomb Raider with maximum settings. Unfortunately, NVIDIA didn’t receive final game code until this past weekend which substantially decreased stability, image quality and performance over a build we were previously provided. We are working closely with Crystal Dynamics to address and resolve all game issues as quickly as possible.

http://techreport.com/news/24463/nvidia-acknowledges-tomb-raider-performance-issues

When you work with a game developer up to the gold status you have every informations for a day 1 driver.
This doesnt really work when you have only access to the gold version...

And nVidia has been saying that their version with the "ultra settings" was the gold version:

"We know of real examples where we have actually explicitly been forbidden from seeing builds—forget source code, even just binary builds—of games that include high-end effects," Cebenoyan said. "The full game with all of the effects, the important PC ultra quality settings, [was] hidden from us until say a few weeks before launch, something like that. These were things that were contractually obligated."]

http://techreport.com/news/26521/nvidia-responds-to-amd-gameworks-allegations

*hint*Tomb Raider*hint*
And they had never access to the game source code. They only got game builds...

/edit: And TressFX was only released 3 weeks after the release of Tomb Raider: http://www.geeks3d.com/20130523/amd-tressfx-dx11-code-sample-published/
Fun fact: After 17 months it's only supported by two games. I guess there is no future for techniques which runs very bad on certain hardware.

 

[Mand]

The blu-ray analogy was a doozy as well. You can plug a blu ray player into any television you buy. A gsync monitor will only work with an nvidia card, another reason it's going to become obsolete. Choosing to lock yourself to a single vendor with your monitor purchase is not something I think most gamers would want to do.

But you can't put an HD-DVD disc into a Blu-Ray player and get it to work. That's what competing standards means.

And if you really do believe that choosing to lock yourself into a single vendor with your monitor purchase is not something you think most gamers would want to do, then you should be just as opposed to FreeSync, as it will only work on AMD GPUs. Don't take my word for it, take AMD's:

Q: What are the requirements to use FreeSync?
A: To take advantage of the benefits of Project FreeSync, users will require: a monitor compatible with DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync, a compatible AMD Radeon™ GPU with a DisplayPort™ connection, and a compatible AMD Catalyst™ graphics driver. AMD plans to release a compatible graphics driver to coincide with the introduction of the first DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync monitors.

 

[sontin]

For variable refresh with variable frametimes you need the advanced display controller in the GPU. Right now only AMD supports this. They made their version open but it only works on their hardware for the next few years.

 

[Gloomy]

Yeah there's no guarantee current or future Nvidia cards will support GSync on A-Sync monitors. Freesync is the only game in town there.

 

[Mand]

For variable refresh with variable frametimes you need the advanced display controller in the GPU. Right now only AMD supports this.

Uh

G-Sync exists. Right now, in a product. To say only AMD supports it is simply factually incorrect (especially since they've never demonstrated variable refresh with variable frametimes in either of their public demos).

 

[Mand]

Yeah there's no guarantee current or future Nvidia cards will support GSync on A-Sync monitors. Freesync is the only game in town there.

There won't be any "A-Sync" monitors. There will be G-Sync monitors, and there will be FreeSync monitors (maybe - it'd be nice if EVEN ONE display partner were announced as being on board with making a product. If they really were getting them into reviewers' hands in September, you'd think that a hardware partner might have been announced just three months away? Hmmm....). Just like there are Intel motherboards and AMD motherboards, and nobody seems to gripe when we can't jam a different company's CPU into it.

 

[Gloomy]

There won't be any "A-Sync" monitors. There will be G-Sync monitors, and there will be FreeSync monitors. Just like there are Intel motherboards and AMD motherboards, and nobody seems to gripe when we can't jam a different company's CPU into it.

Please don't speak to me if you're going to go on one of your little tirades. You know precisely what I meant. Otherwise just ignore my posts, I don't want to have to deal with your inanity you crazy person. D:

Infraction issued for personal attack.
-- stahlhart

 

[Grooveriding]

Yeah there's no guarantee current or future Nvidia cards will support GSync on A-Sync monitors. Freesync is the only game in town there.

It's possible. But some of the wording refers to industry-standard and it makes use of the new DP standard. I think the reality is that there will be vastly more monitors that support this than we ever see for gsync.

Nvidia will find themselves having to support it I believe. To just insist that to get adaptive refresh rate support with their hardware you must buy a gsync panel is not going go over well with what is an extremely sparse monitor selection as far as gsync goes. Every monitor producer will adopt new DP standards into their products, enabling async and freesync functionality, whereas you're not going to see them adding in a proprietary board for something like gsync. That will remain relegated to a few niche products like we see right now.

Are we hearing that there is a need for a special add-in board for async or freesync ? Currently it appears only the new DP is needed and support on the video card end. If this remains consistent eventually every new monitor will support it.

 

[Mand]

Every monitor producer will adpot new DP standards into their products

But not every monitor producer adopts new OPTIONS contained within standards into their products. A-Sync is optional, and it does require new hardware development. It is not a foregone conclusion that every new DP monitor will have A-Sync support.

Considering that not a single display partner has announced a FreeSync product compared to a half-dozen big players for G-Sync, I don't see how you can complain that G-Sync has an extremely sparse selection yet assume that FreeSync is going to have much broader acceptance.

 

[stahlhart]

Reopening thread, though I have no idea why I should even bother to.
-- stahlhart

 

[Final8ty]

No thanks.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Very interesting interview it's a nice look at PC gaming and graphics hardware from the inside. Ryan comes up with some good counterpoints/questions to Huddy in regards to AMD touting "open" initiatives versus the locked down approach. But Nvidia does look really poor when talking about GameWorks, although it looks like NV has backed down somewhat probably at the protest of the game devs. I mean who wants a bunch of DLLs sent to you with no knowledge of what they are doing?

What is not up for debate IMO is the impact of Mantle, it has moved the industry forward. We've had DX11 since 2009 that's way too long for an API that is not that great in the first place. Also is sounds like a complete Mantle SDK will be released for anyone that wants it.

One thing I did not think of is, even though DX12 promises to remove bottlenecks and make better use of hardware, it still won't be able to compete with Mantle in several respects. One, Mantle can (and currently is) be specifically written for a particular architecture, and two it will be updated much quicker than anything Microsoft will provide. So really DX12 won't level the playing field with Mantle at all, even if it turns out to be as efficient as Mantle which is doubtful. Every update to their architecture AMD comes out with, they can have Mantle immediately take advantage.

 

[Granseth]

But not every monitor producer adopts new OPTIONS contained within standards into their products. A-Sync is optional, and it does require new hardware development. It is not a foregone conclusion that every new DP monitor will have A-Sync support.

Considering that not a single display partner has announced a FreeSync product compared to a half-dozen big players for G-Sync, I don't see how you can complain that G-Sync has an extremely sparse selection yet assume that FreeSync is going to have much broader acceptance.

The thing is that nVidia could use a-sync and the new option in the DP standard to make a variable framerate solution but AMD can't use the G-sync sollution.
And I as a customer want a product that don't lock me to one GPU vendor.

 

[monstercameron]

I watched it but I dont remember if ryan asked about 20nm or newer gpu uarchs...

 

[AnandThenMan]

I watched it but I dont remember if ryan asked about 20nm or newer gpu uarchs...

I watched the entire video, pretty sure nothing about 20nm was asked.

 

[BrightCandle]

I wanted the entire video, pretty sure nothing about 20nm was asked.

No nothing about 20nm at all, it was entirely about the three topics I mentioned (and some GPU and game evolved give-aways).

Things like async monitors coming for review in September and release January ties up with prior AMD timelines so isn't new news, although them saying all their future cards would support the technology I guess is new, just not exactly a surprise and I doubt anyone assumed they would say anything different. The alternative of saying that not all future cards would support it would kill the support for the technology so obviously at this point before its out they would say they intend to support it.

I feel people are getting caught up in the freesync v gsync too much. Right now we know what we don't know about Freesync and every interview since hasn't changed that fact. AMD is meant to be releasing a whitepaper but I was expecting it already. Everytime they talk about the technology they don't talk about it correctly, they seem to misunderstand what it is and when they throw untrue statements at gsync, things we know have been categorically proved false well that is concerning. On gameworks they have a good point, I hate what Nvidia is doing there, but on Freesync v gsync I don't think they have this right and if they don't get it right they might not be competing.