"PC's get more virus's than Macs'"

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drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
well your sense of scale is a bit off there on the virus count.

Say you have a 1000 animals and out of those 985 are cats and 15 are condors. Now say the one of the condors got sick once in the past 5 years, but their is a average of 300-400 cats getting sick every month for the past 5 years. Many of them with a dozen sicknesses at one time. I'd say that the cats then are quite prone to getting ill.

Of course this all is pretty stupid, which is why computer analogies usually don't make much sense.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Originally posted by: drag


Of course this all is pretty stupid, which is why computer analogies usually don't make much sense.

I'm waiting for the obligatory car analogy....
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,512
4,607
136
If I send you file.jpg.bat, and you doubleclick it, I know own you


on linux, you have to save the attachment, chmod it to make it executable, and then double click it....why the hell would I try and make a picture file executable before opening it?

Thank you for making my point for me. Why would anyone ( that isn't stupid ) go around double clicking a file with an extensions like File.jpg.bat. The same goes for making a picture file executable and double clicking it in Linux. Both of these actions require some amount of carelessness or stupidity...

You shouldn't try and drive a car unless you know what you are doing. There that should take care of this.
I'm waiting for the obligatory car analogy....

Cars designs are flawed where trucks are inherently safer. duh.

pcgeek11
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Question to ponder:

So consider viruses, spyware etc to just be "software". Call them "bad software".



What is the ratio of "good software" to "bad software" for the Mac versus PC? I don't know what this ratio would be...it might very well come out in the Macs favor, I dunno.

Windows having that huge marketshare obviously has the downside of making it a richer target for bad software but it has the upside of making it a more lucrative market for good software.

What I do know: There isn't much "bad software" for a Mac, but heck the offering of good software for the mac is pretty sad compared to windows. I wonder what the ratio is?



I'm not sure how to bring cars into this particular one.


 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Originally posted by: pcgeek11
If I send you file.jpg.bat, and you doubleclick it, I know own you


on linux, you have to save the attachment, chmod it to make it executable, and then double click it....why the hell would I try and make a picture file executable before opening it?

Thank you for making my point for me. Why would anyone ( that isn't stupid ) go around double clicking a file with an extensions like File.jpg.bat. The same goes for making a picture file executable and double clicking it in Linux. Both of these actions require some amount of carelessness or stupidity...

You shouldn't try and drive a car unless you know what you are doing. There that should take care of this.
I'm waiting for the obligatory car analogy....

Cars designs are flawed where trucks are inherently safer. duh.

pcgeek11

eh...on windows, I only see "picture.jpg" not jpg.bat, and you don't have to mark a file executable, like you do on linux.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
Originally posted by: Smilin
Question to ponder:

So consider viruses, spyware etc to just be "software". Call them "bad software".

What is the ratio of "good software" to "bad software" for the Mac versus PC? I don't know what this ratio would be...it might very well come out in the Macs favor, I dunno.

Windows having that huge marketshare obviously has the downside of making it a richer target for bad software but it has the upside of making it a more lucrative market for good software.

What I do know: There isn't much "bad software" for a Mac, but heck the offering of good software for the mac is pretty sad compared to windows. I wonder what the ratio is?

I'm not sure how to bring cars into this particular one.
There's a some problems with that argument. First "not malicious" !(necessarily)= "good software". I'm sure there are plenty of well intentioned but stupid and incompetent developers out there so you should also address the relative usefulness of the "good software". I can't speak for others but I don't personally care how much software is available on windows because I don't really need anything that doesn't run on the platforms I do use. Hell, I probably don't need most of the stuff that I have now anyway

Of course if you talk about business software, then it's obvious that windows does have a major advantage there...

I'm gonna try something new and daring and draw a car analogy. Try to follow me if you can. Lets say there's a car from manufacturer A and one from manufacturer B. Car A gets me to work and back for a decent price. So does car B but car B but car B also has a huge aftermarket parts industry. Particularly you can buy these huge anti-theft devices, which are cumbersome but necessary, since thieves have so much more opportunity to practice their techniques on car B, which is much more common.

People also tend to stick a lot of flyers on the windshield of car B when it's parked, to the point that you have to get special wipers to get them off so you can see to drive. Fortunately, you can generally get these wipers for free and people sometimes install 4 or 5 of them at the same time. Car A has a different windshield design and nobody's bothered to figure out how to stick flyers to it yet.

Now neither car comes with a cd player, but most people like to add one, because you often swap cds with friends or business associates. Manufacturer B makes an insanely expensive cd player that has a billion bells and whistles, most of which I don't ever need to touch. This cd player works best in car B, but there is a version for car A if you need it (but it's usually a bit out of date and nobody markets it so hardly anyone buys it). Manufacturer A doesn't really make cd players but, amazingly, there are many cd players that are given away for free that work just fine in car A. None are quite as comprehensive as the one from manufacturer B, but they do offer a lot more choice and fill most people's needs. The downside is that they sound a bit funny when playing cds made for manufacturer B's player and people switching from one to the other sometimes get confused because the buttons are in different places.

I drive car A. I happen to be a bit of a mechanic (no expert, but better than most of my friends). It gets really annoying when people ask me to fix problems on their carBs when I'm pretty sure the problems wouldn't have occurred on my car, but whatever...
 

ObscureCaucasian

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2006
3,934
0
0
Originally posted by: kamper
Originally posted by: Smilin
Question to ponder:

So consider viruses, spyware etc to just be "software". Call them "bad software".

What is the ratio of "good software" to "bad software" for the Mac versus PC? I don't know what this ratio would be...it might very well come out in the Macs favor, I dunno.

Windows having that huge marketshare obviously has the downside of making it a richer target for bad software but it has the upside of making it a more lucrative market for good software.

What I do know: There isn't much "bad software" for a Mac, but heck the offering of good software for the mac is pretty sad compared to windows. I wonder what the ratio is?

I'm not sure how to bring cars into this particular one.
There's a some problems with that argument. First "not malicious" !(necessarily)= "good software". I'm sure there are plenty of well intentioned but stupid and incompetent developers out there so you should also address the relative usefulness of the "good software". I can't speak for others but I don't personally care how much software is available on windows because I don't really need anything that doesn't run on the platforms I do use. Hell, I probably don't need most of the stuff that I have now anyway

Of course if you talk about business software, then it's obvious that windows does have a major advantage there...

I'm gonna try something new and daring and draw a car analogy. Try to follow me if you can. Lets say there's a car from manufacturer A and one from manufacturer B. Car A gets me to work and back for a decent price. So does car B but car B but car B also has a huge aftermarket parts industry. Particularly you can buy these huge anti-theft devices, which are cumbersome but necessary, since thieves have so much more opportunity to practice their techniques on car B, which is much more common.

People also tend to stick a lot of flyers on the windshield of car B when it's parked, to the point that you have to get special wipers to get them off so you can see to drive. Fortunately, you can generally get these wipers for free and people sometimes install 4 or 5 of them at the same time. Car A has a different windshield design and nobody's bothered to figure out how to stick flyers to it yet.

Now neither car comes with a cd player, but most people like to add one, because you often swap cds with friends or business associates. Manufacturer B makes an insanely expensive cd player that has a billion bells and whistles, most of which I don't ever need to touch. This cd player works best in car B, but there is a version for car A if you need it (but it's usually a bit out of date and nobody markets it so hardly anyone buys it). Manufacturer A doesn't really make cd players but, amazingly, there are many cd players that are given away for free that work just fine in car A. None are quite as comprehensive as the one from manufacturer B, but they do offer a lot more choice and fill most people's needs. The downside is that they sound a bit funny when playing cds made for manufacturer B's player and people switching from one to the other sometimes get confused because the buttons are in different places.

I drive car A. I happen to be a bit of a mechanic (no expert, but better than most of my friends). It gets really annoying when people ask me to fix problems on their carBs when I'm pretty sure the problems wouldn't have occurred on my car, but whatever...

This is only half true.

Car A is like your basic reliable car, but there are not many accessories.

Car B is very customizable which is both good and bad. You need to make sure you have a good security system, but they can be set up cheap and easy (PC virus protection doesn't require purchased software). Car B can also have all those cool GPS, Stereos, XM radios, etc. It also comes in several models: Sedan, Van, Truck, SUV, so it can fit everyones needs.

Car A will always just be Car A.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: BlameCanada
This is only half true.

Car A is like your basic reliable car, but there are not many accessories.

Car B is very customizable which is both good and bad. You need to make sure you have a good security system, but they can be set up cheap and easy (PC virus protection doesn't require purchased software). Car B can also have all those cool GPS, Stereos, XM radios, etc. It also comes in several models: Sedan, Van, Truck, SUV, so it can fit everyones needs.

Car A will always just be Car A.

I'm so confused. If Car A is supposed to represent OS X or Linux or BSD or something, then there are plenty of accessories.
 

ObscureCaucasian

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2006
3,934
0
0
The analogy is confusing, i think after market parts/accessories were meant to be software (or thats how i took it)

OS X has some, but Windows has much more.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
eh....I think CarA has a better stereo, with more features. What's more, you can't open the CD Player and tweak anything in carB


Touting "amount of software available" does notheing for the windows versus linux, as there is a TON of linux only stuff. Talking commercial, and yes, windows has more, but just because you pay for it, as opposed to open source it, doesn't change quality.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: BlameCanada
The analogy is confusing, i think after market parts/accessories were meant to be software (or thats how i took it)

OS X has some, but Windows has much more.

That doesn't mean that there "are not many accessories". It just means there are fewer than Windows has. That's what confused me.

OS X has a lot, not just some.
 

ObscureCaucasian

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2006
3,934
0
0
I think we should all just agree to drop the whole Car A/ Car B thing....... Theres a reason it hasn't been done before
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
the reason the car analogy isn't working is because the documentation didn't exist, and we are reverse engineering the analogy prior to it working. For now, use this Ndisanalogy wrapper to install the drivers from the cat/dog analogry
 

ObscureCaucasian

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2006
3,934
0
0
I think we need a company, like Apple, but they install Linux on all their machines, and get rid of that price premium for a non open source OS, an OSOS if u will. Configure it to a usable point, and then sell it below what Apple and MS boxes go for.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: BlameCanada
I think we need a company, like Apple, but they install Linux on all their machines, and get rid of that price premium for a non open source OS, an OSOS if u will. Configure it to a usable point, and then sell it below what Apple and MS boxes go for.

system76?
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: nweaver
eh...on windows, I only see "picture.jpg" not jpg.bat, and you don't have to mark a file executable, like you do on linux.

Does the icon look like a little painting or a little program?

 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
EGAD!!!!!


I step away for a short while and when I come back there is some metaphysical discussion about what constitutes "good software" and some jacked up (no pun) car analogy that I can't even bear to finish reading.


Rephrasing....

What is the ratio of software written for a PC to viruses written for a PC compared to software written for a Mac to viruses written for a Mac???


RULES:
1. No devils advocate you know WTF I mean. :| :| :|
2. No F'n Car analogies. :| :| :|
3. Break 1 or 2 = [cartman]kick you in tha nuts![/cartman] :| :| :|


So, thoughts??

 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
Originally posted by: Smilin
EGAD!!!!!


I step away for a short while and when I come back there is some metaphysical discussion about what constitutes "good software" and some jacked up (no pun) car analogy that I can't even bear to finish reading.


Rephrasing....

What is the ratio of software written for a PC to viruses written for a PC compared to software written for a Mac to viruses written for a Mac???


RULES:
1. No devils advocate you know WTF I mean. :| :| :|
2. No F'n Car analogies. :| :| :|
3. Break 1 or 2 = [cartman]kick you in tha nuts![/cartman] :| :| :|


So, thoughts??


i think everyone is pretty well-aware of each side of the issue. its rather apparent how much more windows-based software vs. apple-based software (both good an bad) exist.
it would be nice if apple could gain the sort of hardcore software-creating frenzy that microsoft-based systems have.
i, much like the OP, find the ads obnoxious. but i try not to worry about it as its just a turn of phrase and is a euphemism...lets not go crazy, no matter how much our expertise allows our indignation to be labeled as righteous.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,512
4,607
136
eh...on windows, I only see "picture.jpg" not jpg.bat, and you don't have to mark a file executable, like you do on linux.

No. Actually I see "picture.jpg.bat" in windows.

pcgeek11
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,512
4,607
136
Originally posted by: Nothinman
No. Actually I see "picture.jpg.bat" in windows.

You do, but it's not like that by default.

I know. That is exactly what I mean, if you are smart and not stupid you won't shoot yourself in the head.

Even with the defaults there are several clues.
1.) The Icon isn't right with a *.jpg.bat extension it will have an executable Icon instead of a graphic Icon.

2.) Why would one file be showing an extension and all the other files not showing an extension. With the default settings it should just show " File " and no extension, instead of " File.jpg ".

Default settings are just too generic, even on linux. You have to read before you click. That is why I change the defaults so I can see exactly what I have.

A stupid person will always find a way to screw himself, no matter how idiot proof you try to make the OS. A smart person will learn the limitations on the OS and work with it. I've done pretty well at almost 20 years and no infections or worms etc... with MS DOS, Windows, and Linux.

Knowledge is power. Ignorance is ... well, just Ignorance!

pcgeek11

 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
Originally posted by: Smilin
I step away for a short while and when I come back there is some metaphysical discussion about what constitutes "good software"
You started it ...
and some jacked up (no pun) car analogy that I can't even bear to finish reading.
... and you (sorta) asked for one.

Sorry it distressed you so much
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
The jpg.bat thing in Windows is better now then it used to be.

It's just a easy target because of how obviously bad it is.
Partial list of executable file formats:
ade adp bas bat chm cmd com cpl crt dll do* exe hlp hta inf ins isp js jse lnk mdb mde msc msi msp mst ocx pcd pif pot ppt reg scr sct shb shs sys url vb vbe vbs wsc wsf wsh xl*


But as far as having a virus embedded into a jpeg or whatnot that exploits vunerabilities in firefox or IE or whatnot is going to be a problem irregardless of what OS your using. The only solution for that is anti-virus..
but the problem with that in Linux and OS X is that most propriatory anti-virus stuff is worse then the viruses! Most anti-virus stuff is very invasive and they want to do fancy stuff to your machine that requires root access and even kernel drivers. Vunerabilities they open up are worse then anything they may currently defend against.

It's not like writing a virus is paticularly difficult for Linux or OS X. (It's not)
http://www.linuxsecurity.com/resource_f...n/virus-writing-HOWTO/_html/index.html
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
Originally posted by: MrChad
Originally posted by: spikespiegal
I honestly don't care what they 'meant', nor interested in a pop culture explanation of platform security when I'm a security admin for +10,000 users. As a sidebar, we don't get virus's, and we don't have armies of A+ certified geeks running around doing spyware scans.

The commercial says; "PC's get more virus's than Macs", and I'd like Mac/Apple users to explain it.

More viruses target Windows then they do OS X. That is a fact.

That is becuz people don't know apple exists. Hence the need to self promote.
 
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