Pelosi promises to be a bipartisan House speaker

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic


I recall clearly when you praised SF for its total gun ban.

And? I have no clue what daves views are on gun control and could care less, your point?

And? Other than his pro-gun views, I can't see how anyone could possibly call Dave a "centrist." If that's center to you, when he's actually just a touch to the right of Lenin, it's no wonder you wrongly think I'm on the far right.

Excuse me, Lenin and Bush are your hero's not mine.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Thats funny, where has Dave ever pointed out core socialist values.

Or is anyone who is not some free market cultist so flawed as to not understand how your utopian paradise can never happen unless you educate the poor stupid socialist masses.

Must be frustrating huh? You will outgrow libertarianism in time, reality is your friend, utopian dreams do not come true.

Free Market Utopia/ Communist Utopia

Same difference, same childish naievity, same kind of annoying idealogies and followers dead set on converting the "stupid and uneducated"

The cult of libertarianism is not so much "far right" but it is a hiding place of disenfanchised self-centered authoritarians who just happen to flock to the right.

Well said :thumbsup:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

I know, a hard concept for Religious Radicals to grasp.

Dave, don't start, in all fairness I have never seen Vic in here defending christrianity or admitting he is one.

I know. I wasn't referring to him directly but the Religious base that woke up and turned it's back on the GOP which slapped them in the face. Quite frankly it surprised me to the degree at which they did.

There is hope for the faithful after all.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87
It will be interesting to see where she goes with this. I personally think she will go batshite insane for the public to see. But maybe she will be hamstrung by her own party.

Either way I am sure the left on this board will be disappointed if they dont impeach, raise taxes to the hilt, and get min wage to 30 bucks an hour.

Hey, if that's where it's supposed to be.

You said it not me.

Good way to get fuel to the $5 per gallon.

$2 MacDonals hamburger.

$5 can of soda.

All benifits of raising the minim wage

You of all people surprise me on this being so good with numbers.

Do you feel it's right to never level the playing field?

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic


I recall clearly when you praised SF for its total gun ban.

And? I have no clue what daves views are on gun control and could care less, your point?

And? Other than his pro-gun views, I can't see how anyone could possibly call Dave a "centrist." If that's center to you, when he's actually just a touch to the right of Lenin, it's no wonder you wrongly think I'm on the far right.

from a perspective of civilized, first world nations, Dave's views are very moderate. There are very few people on this forum with political viewpoints that are to the far left. Support of abortion on demand, gun bans, nationalised health care and pharmaceuticals - these are very mainstream positions in the first world. Most first world nations have a social-democratic perspective.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

Pelosi with Jim Lehrer. It's only 8 minuets long.
She speaks of being bipartisan at 4:30~5:15. The mean spirited neocons will not want it to happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scLzSHdbk9s&mode

 

[Fern]

Pelosi promises to be a bipartisan House speaker

And so they all promise...............

Am hopeful, but definately not optomistic.

Fern

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Thats funny, where has Dave ever pointed out core socialist values.

Or is anyone who is not some free market cultist so flawed as to not understand how your utopian paradise can never happen unless you educate the poor stupid socialist masses.

Must be frustrating huh? You will outgrow libertarianism in time, reality is your friend, utopian dreams do not come true.

Free Market Utopia/ Communist Utopia

Same difference, same childish naievity, same kind of annoying idealogies and followers dead set on converting the "stupid and uneducated"

The cult of libertarianism is not so much "far right" but it is a hiding place of disenfanchised self-centered authoritarians who just happen to flock to the right.

Your first mistake here is that libertarianism is not utopist in any way. It's a realist philosophy.

Your second mistake is the idea that I am authoritarian in any way. Put down the Noam Choamsky and his "capitalism is authoritarian" bullsh!t lies. Noam is a perfect example of a utopist. His beliefs make for pretty prose but in real life practice would end up just as authoritarian as marxism. And you fault me for for "childish naivete." That's rich! How's the state of liberty is your hero Chavez' glorious Venezuela? Has he shot any more unarmed protestors lately?

And your 3rd mistake is grouping all of American Libertarianism under some kind of right-wing Randite-ism, as though it were all of one mindset. Not so. I am in fact a left libertarian, aka a classical liberal, ala Jefferson, Payne, Sinclair, Heinlein, and MacWilliams. (Peter MacWilliams' book "Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do" probably had more influence on my personal politics than anything else)

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Dave, don't start, in all fairness I have never seen Vic in here defending christrianity or admitting he is one.

I defend Christianity the same way I defend anyone's freedom of belief, and yes, I have done that here many times. But no, I am not a Christian, and I stand firmly opposed to fundamentalism. I find it telling of your own tolerance that you would say that someone would have to "admit" to being one. But hey, thanks for the defense to Dave's usual trolling.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic


I recall clearly when you praised SF for its total gun ban.

And? I have no clue what daves views are on gun control and could care less, your point?

And? Other than his pro-gun views, I can't see how anyone could possibly call Dave a "centrist." If that's center to you, when he's actually just a touch to the right of Lenin, it's no wonder you wrongly think I'm on the far right.

from a perspective of civilized, first world nations, Dave's views are very moderate. There are very view people on tis forum with political viewpoints that are to the far left. Support of abortion on demand, gun bans, nationalised health care and pharmaceuticals - these are very mainstream positions in the first world.

I'm pro-choice but otherwise all those positions, mainstream or not, are all about as anti-liberal and as pro-authoritarian as anything could be. What's next for Australia? A state religion? Or are you planning on recognizing the direct absolute rule of the Queen?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87
It will be interesting to see where she goes with this. I personally think she will go batshite insane for the public to see. But maybe she will be hamstrung by her own party.

Either way I am sure the left on this board will be disappointed if they dont impeach, raise taxes to the hilt, and get min wage to 30 bucks an hour.

Hey, if that's where it's supposed to be.

You said it not me.

Good way to get fuel to the $5 per gallon.

$2 MacDonals hamburger.

$5 can of soda.

All benifits of raising the minim wage

You of all people surprise me on this being so good with numbers.

Do you feel it's right to never level the playing field?

You don't "level the playing field" by pushing people down.

 

[OrganizedChaos]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Give me a break, your idea of radical leftist is dave mcownen from AT forums?? dave is a centrist, with a good dose of wingnut kookery, how is dave a quasi-socialist :roll:

Go back to filtering the chloride out of your water so the commies dont sap your prcious bodily essesence, you and lamerkeeper, genxhitleryouth, nutz etc. are both some of the biggest authoritarian kooks in here, enjoy your "libertarian" marganilizing of yourselfs, you lost.

kudos for the dr. strangelove reference if nothing else.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87
It will be interesting to see where she goes with this. I personally think she will go batshite insane for the public to see. But maybe she will be hamstrung by her own party.

Either way I am sure the left on this board will be disappointed if they dont impeach, raise taxes to the hilt, and get min wage to 30 bucks an hour.

Hey, if that's where it's supposed to be.

You said it not me.

Good way to get fuel to the $5 per gallon.

$2 MacDonald's hamburger.

$5 can of soda.

All benefits of raising the minim wage

You of all people surprise me on this being so good with numbers.

Do you feel it's right to never level the playing field?

Everytime the playing field is attempted to be leveled, it is at the expense of someone.

Increase the fixed costs and the prices of everything has to go up to compensate for it.

The only one that wins is the tax man and the inflation pundits.

When your living costs (not discretionary) go up; you feel as if you are being left behind.

You want a pay increase if you are going to stay on the job. Where does the employer get the cost of funds to satisfy you. From the customers; And so the inflation cycle starts.
The customers have to pay more; therefore they will charge more for their goos and services to compensate.

Now if your employer does not want to pay your and everyone else that wants the salary increase; he has choices.
Let someone walk so he can pay others an increase as requested;
or pay no increases at all - every one keeps their job but is unhappy with the external fixed costs dragging down their value.

Someone walks - extra funds may become available and more productivity is demanded.

The extra money to raise the min wage has to come from some pocket and will be passed along to the customer.
To freeze costs will not work - it has been tried before with failure.

If McDonald's costs go up $1/hr that translates to 6 employees (per shift) * 2 8 hr shifts/day.

In other words and extra $100/day that the place has to shell out.

Either reduce the employees to 5 per shift or pass along the costs as a percentage of sales.

Increases the cost of food by 10-15% (using the example of the labor costs going up 20%).

And what happens if the shift supervisor is not making less than the min wage; They will want an increase to keep them above the min wage workers. And so you have a wage ripple effect through the system where a person below you now is paid closer to you than the work responsibilities

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic

And your 3rd mistake is grouping all of American Libertarianism as though it were all of one mindset. Not so.
I stand firmly opposed to fundamentalism.

Problem is, speaking with a well read Libertarians the way they buy into this whole anti-authoritarian anarcho-market aspect IS fundamentalist, in the same way commies are annoying always preaching about how everyones usually rational basis of how the world works is flawed, -thats fundamentalist. (Realitist? What is real is realitive to our own individual views just the phrase Realitist is cockyness and authoritarian -you all will never get that)
You know damn well regardless of how thought out and "realist" your ideas are to you, they will not work unless everyone is part of it. (A revoloution my comrade)

Originally posted by: Vic

But hey, thanks for the defense to Dave's usual trolling.

I don't like the way Dave jumps all over someone with his nuttiness, annoying that you brought him in here.

 

[Vic]

While I do support labor laws, rallying behind a cry of increasing the minimum wage is just mindless populism. Certain candidates tell us that *THEY* are fscking us, so we have to elect those candidates in order to fsck *THEM* back. Conveniently, those candidates always neglect to inform their faithful followers that of their own personal affiliation in the group of *THEM*.
Really, what passes for "liberalism" in most of the world is just knee-jerk populism. You can always tell it because it stinks of conspiracy, divisiveism, fear, and hate. It's very similar to fascism in that fashion, there's always some evil scapegoat group to be afraid of. Fear of that scapegoat, and not actually helping anyone in particular, is the very basis of their political involvement.
That's how it is that anyone who disagrees with them is automatically lumped into their enemies, and why everything is a desparate emergency.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87
It will be interesting to see where she goes with this. I personally think she will go batshite insane for the public to see. But maybe she will be hamstrung by her own party.

Either way I am sure the left on this board will be disappointed if they dont impeach, raise taxes to the hilt, and get min wage to 30 bucks an hour.

Hey, if that's where it's supposed to be.

You said it not me.

Good way to get fuel to the $5 per gallon.

$2 MacDonals hamburger.

$5 can of soda.

All benifits of raising the minim wage

You of all people surprise me on this being so good with numbers.

Do you feel it's right to never level the playing field?

Leveling the playing field is a utopian dream.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic
While I do support labor laws, rallying behind a cry of increasing the minimum wage is just mindless populism. Certain candidates tell us that *THEY* are fscking us, so we have to elect those candidates in order to fsck *THEM* back. Conveniently, those candidates always neglect to inform their faithful followers that of their own personal affiliation in the group of *THEM*.
Really, what passes for "liberalism" in most of the world is just knee-jerk populism. You can always tell it because it stinks of conspiracy, divisiveism, fear, and hate. It's very similar to fascism in that fashion, there's always some evil scapegoat group to be afraid of. Fear of that scapegoat, and not actually helping anyone in particular, is the very basis of their political involvement.
That's how it is that anyone who disagrees with them is automatically lumped into their enemies, and why everything is a desparate emergency.

As you free-market types would say: knee-jerk populism sells

I see your point but as I said, one day you will come back to earth and realize people are flawed, our society is flawed, and we are just people, unless you are going to brainwash the masses into being somewhat honest and less self centered someone is going to need to be regulated by the a state somewhere or another.

Same reason communism wont work free markets are a utopian dream and capitalism will always eat its own.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Problem is, speaking with a well read Libertarians the way they buy into this whole anti-authoritarian anarcho-market aspect IS fundamentalist, in the same way commies are annoying always preaching about how everyones usually rational basis of how the world works is flawed, -thats fundamentalist. (Realitist? What is real is realitive to our own individual views just the phrase Realitist is cockyness and authoritarian -you all will never get that)
You know damn well regardless of how thought out and "realist" your ideas are to you, they will not work unless everyone is part of it. (A revoloution my comrade)

Ah, not so. The very basis of my "ideas" is that no one has to take part who doesn't want to take part. In fact, that is IMO the very essence of liberty -- the right to withdraw oneself from society.

Let's use some specific examples...
Compare that to abortion-on-demand, for example. What if someone is morally opposed to paying for another's abortion? No choice, comrade, they pay or they go to jail, their freedoms of belief and expression mean nothing.
Next, gun bans. Why should a person with no criminal record be forced to suffer losing his right to defend himself and his property simply because someone else committing crimes using a gun? Once again, everyone is forced to take part or they go to jail.
Then, "universal" health care. Suppose I'm healthy, eat right and exercise, and don't want to take part in the system? Suppose I'd be just as willing not to receive benefits and I would be not to pay. Could I do that? No. Whether I'd use the system or not, I'd pay or I'd go to jail.

Now who's the authoritarian? Compare that to the ideals of libertarianism: you don't want to take part, you don't want to pay into society? Fine, don't. But don't expect to receive any of the benefits of society either. Tell me, how is that authoritarian? How is that a requirement that everyone take part? Maybe you wouldn't take such offense to the word "realist" if your own views were so freakin' skewed from reality to the point that you make Orwell look like a prophet.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic
-- the right to withdraw oneself from society.

That is not being a realist, it is running or isolating yourself, which is why I say libertarianism it is nothing less then a utopian economic cult people grow out of sooner or later.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674





Excuse me, Lenin and Bush are your hero's not mine.

I like Lennon

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
As you free-market types would say: knee-jerk populism sells

I see your point but as I said, one day you will come back to earth and realize people are flawed, our society is flawed, and we are just people, unless you are going to brainwash the masses into being somewhat honest and less self centered someone is going to need to be regulated by the a state somewhere or another.

Same reason communism wont work free markets are a utopian dream and capitalism will always eat its own.

The very basis of liberal theory is accepting the flaws of humanity. Believe what you want, do what you want (provided you don't harm anyone else), live how you want.
And (we've been over this part a thousand times before) it isn't anarchy. The state is there to regulate and defend the rights of the people.

Wow... you are whacked.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic
-- the right to withdraw oneself from society.

That is not being a realist, it is running or isolating yourself, which is why I say libertarianism it is nothing less then a utopian economic cult people grow out of sooner or later.

My first act as utopian economic cult leader would be to replace the water with lemonade.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic
-- the right to withdraw oneself from society.

That is not being a realist, it is running or isolating yourself, which is why I say libertarianism it is nothing less then a utopian economic cult people grow out of sooner or later.

My first act as utopian economic cult leader would be to replace the water with lemonade.

More like grape kool-aid. "The statists and socialists are coming to get us, Drink up kiddies!"

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic
-- the right to withdraw oneself from society.

That is not being a realist, it is running or isolating yourself, which is why I say libertarianism it is nothing less then a utopian economic cult people grow out of sooner or later.

You are a double-thinking nutball.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Excuse me, Lenin and Bush are your hero's not mine.

I like Lennon

Lennon was talking to rot in this one:

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world.
You tell me that it?s evolution,
Well, you know
We all want to change the world.
But when you talk about destruction,
Don?t you know that you can count me out.
Don?t you know it?s going to be alright,
Alright, alright.
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We?d all love to see the plan.
You ask me for a contribution,
Well, you know
We?re all doing what we can.
But if you want money for people with minds that hate,
All I can tell you is brother you have to wait.
Don?t you know it?s going to be alright,
Alright, alright.
You say you?ll change a constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head.
You tell me it?s the institution,
Well, you know
You better free your mind instead.
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao,
You ain?t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.
Don?t you know it?s going to be alright,
Alright, alright.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic
-- the right to withdraw oneself from society.

That is not being a realist, it is running or isolating yourself, which is why I say libertarianism it is nothing less then a utopian economic cult people grow out of sooner or later.

My first act as utopian economic cult leader would be to replace the water with lemonade.

More like grape kool-aid. "The statists and socialists are coming to get us, Drink up kiddies!"

I prefer lemonade...when its your turn as economic cult leader...then you can switch out to grape kool-aid.