Pentium 4 Comments

[Modus]

WingzNut PEZ,

<< Sometimes people here only focus on today's games, and today's internet, and today's apps. Very little is about &quot;today.&quot; >>

A smart computer hardware purchase is one that achieves maximum value today. The industry advances so fast that it is foolish to try to predict what will still be useful a year from now. Ultimately, longevity is simply a function of today's performance degraded over time. The industry pays little respect to hardware that was supposed to last a long time. Newer innovations always bury the old ones -- disposable computing. In the case of SSE, 3DNow, and similar instruction sets, can anyone honestly say that having 3DNow! on their K6-2 gave it a longer useful life? Did the T&amp;L unit on your GeForce1 give it better longevity for today's games? Or what about that Katmai P3/450 -- did SSE1 make it stack up better to today's $46 Duron 800's? Obviously not, illustrating a key point: buy whatever gives you the best bang for your buck today. Let tomorrow bury today.

<< People talk about how AMD is going to stick with Socket A for a while, as if that's some incentive. >>

I thought &quot;very little is about today&quot; That would imply that upgradability is important. Actually, it's irrelevant, for the reasons I mentioned above. Logevity in a computer hardware purchase is always a loosing proposition.

<< Personally, I know a lot of Intel employees. And it amazes me every single day, how much 'brain power' surrounds me. I just don't get how they come up with the things they do. >>

Agreed. People who criticize AMD or Intel should realize that they are building the most complex machines in the universe next to life itself. I can think of no other technology which requires the precise placement and layout of litteraly millions of components less than 0.0000001mm in diameter. It boggles my mind. And Intel's marketing department is perhaps the smartest of the bunch -- they consistently manage to generate incredible brand recognition and sell chips that are, for the majority of users, overkill.

Fkloster,

<< WRONG! Ever play games like Tribes 2 or Giants? NASCAR 4? Maybe Mercedes benz truck racing? Many games run faster on P4 systems. Some don't...but please speak factually... >>

Well, you have to admit the balance of real world tests does tilt toward the Athlon. According to Anand and Tom's benchmarks, the P4 takes Q3A, Dronez, and MBTR, while the Athlon takes UT, Serious Sam, Evolva, and Expendable. This is a diverse collection of old and new games. The P4 is not doing any better on &quot;tomorrow's games&quot; than the Athlon.

Modus

 

[splice]

<< And frankly, I can't even imagine how a current motherboard would work very well (if at all) with a .13um cpu, when those eventually come around. Even though AMD has intentions of making their .13um cpu's work on the current Socket A, I'd be real surprised if it happened with any success. >>




Why is that? There were AMD SocketA motherboards still using the AMD750 chipset which ran the tbirds just fine. The Gigabyte GA-7IXE4 being one of them. Why would it be any different then the AMD760 running a .13um processor? Sure there will be better motherboard products then, but not everyone can afford to constantly upgrade all their parts every 6 months.

 

[Boogak]

<< Ummm, XML is not about text its about flexible remote-control of applications and hardware. >>



You're talking about SOAP, which uses XML to communicate between the different applications. But XML itself is still TEXT, I could write an XML file using notepad.

Personally, I don't have any grudges against Intel, I just find their &quot;market-ese&quot; humorous. You have to admit that AMD does provide more bang for the buck though.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Wow. Talk about getting off the main point and getting into another classis AMD/Intel war. Oh well. BTW, to the person who said that mithrandir just focused on the &quot;silly&quot; portion of the statement and ignored the &quot;gaming&quot; part, look up. >>



I said it and please show me where I said I was specifically talking to Mithrandir. I said guyS, not one person and not even necessarily that person.



<< And to all the posters who insisted on making childish remarks, don't worry, your immaturity shows through. Pat yourselves on the back for using &quot;morons&quot; as frequently as possible. If you have to prove someone wrong, do it intelligently like Wingznut did. But that might be asking too much >>




LOL and I guess its too much to ask you to actally READ a statement thoroughly before attacking isn't it?

Next time, address me up front. You look like a coward.

 

[Konboy]

I remeber a time when quake was optimise to run 3D Now and all the intel people say it is software optimise. Funny how it is now reverse and the intel zealots are saying what the AMD zealots was saying couple of years ago. LOL

 

[SpideyCU]

Modus, to be fair, I'm not sure how much of the Pentium sales are driven by their marketing department as much as it is by plain old name recognition. Since these people buy pre-built PC's I'd have to give more credit to companies like Dell &amp; Gateway.

 

[Duvie]

Wingznut, I am still here to argue your last part on who has longest upgrade path...

&quot;upgrade path&quot;

Heh, this is my current soapbox... People talk about how AMD is going to stick with Socket A for a while, as if that's some incentive. I'm guessing it's because they assume they can buy a setup today, and in 6-12 months just replace the cpu. Well, think of it this way. Had you purchased a top of the line motherboard 12 months ago, you wouldn't be using it with a top Tbird today. Even if you had purchased the motherboard six months ago, you'd still be much better off getting a new motherboard. I have no doubt the same will be true in six months from now, especially if the SIS and nForce chipsets pan out.&quot;



Find me an instance where you can beat this scenario...I buy a kt133a board back in late february...It will hold tbirds from 650mhz to current 1.4 ghz, from 200fsb to 266fsb...It will hold durons from 600mhz to current 950mhz...I can see a very reasonable upgrade path of someone getting 700mhz duron then later on expand his horizons on the computer and bump it up to 1gig tbird (which would be noticeable in many things) and still have room for another 400mhz jump down the round if he needs the extra umph!!! Is it ruled out a palomino wont work on a kt133a...I don't think so...So if they mobo manufacturer offers a bios upgrade then it could open up a few hundred more mhz plus the boost of the advanced palomino features...

Find me an example!!! I think most ppl here are seeing it on lines like this. MOst boards if they have ata100 and run standalone agp and sound theater cards don';t really need to keep changing platform anyways. DDR hasn't shown the greatest improvement yet so many may wish to stick with pc133 sdram for a bit anyways.


&quot;And frankly, I can't even imagine how a current motherboard would work very well (if at all) with a .13um cpu, when those eventually come around. Even though AMD has intentions of making their .13um cpu's work on the current Socket A, I'd be real surprised if it happened with any success. &quot;


Who said they were??? AMD is quite aways from this and could ramp the palomino up to 1.733ghz before the release of that anyways...

 

[SpideyCU]

Texmaster, don't be too proud. DeathlyCurse also likes to use morons, though if you like to play semantics technically he was comparing people to ZDNet readers.

And, oh yes, you caught me, I'm deathly afraid of coming up and saying your name. I feel terrible that you think me coward.

Right now I'm behind a firewall and when I went to reply the entire page didn't come up and I didn't feel like hitting &quot;refresh&quot; (thus the trouble with the double-post). I read your posts all the way through. Wasn't much there to comment on. But if you want I can also commend you for using &quot;LOL&quot; the most.

Edit: Duvie, I believe Socket-A T-birds only came out as slow as 700, not 650. Just something that caught my eye. Curse this slow connection

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< &quot;Lack of vision, thats what it is.&quot;

Probably the best statement I've seen in a long time. Sometimes people here only focus on today's games, and today's internet, and today's apps. Very little is about &quot;today.&quot; >>


Hardly. It's one thing to be a visionary, and another to be a realist. If online shopping is going to become a 3D environment, broadband connections will be required. But look at how many people - the REAL home consumer types who use AOL and fall for marketing departments' speels - still use 56K dial-up. I don't care how fast your CPU is, if you are &quot;experiencing&quot; the Net on a dial-up modem, IT SUCKS. By the time broadband becomes saturated in the US marketplace - a few years from now - the P4 (and everything else on the market) will be obsolete. So why buy a P4 for &quot;tomorrow's apps&quot; when you can buy something just as fast (if not faster) for today's apps and today's Internet connection realities and costs less?

It's foolish to buy an expensive PC today for apps that don't even exist yet. Remember, computer technology plummets in price so quickly that you don't want to buy on the expensive side of the price/performance curve. AMD is a force to be reckoned with now. Who is to say they won't produce a P4 killer in the future? Don't buy into P4 just &quot;because&quot;. It often pays to wait.

Along the lines of online shopping, are we simply innovating for innovation's sake? What advantages am I going to get from a 3D shopping environment, that I can't get from current 2D technology? Sure, 3D may be more neato, but is it worth the expense of all new hardware? And who says high-clocked P3s and Athlons can't render 3D environments either? Heck, you can get over 150fps in Q3A with a P3 and a GF2 Ultra/GF3. I really don't think a 3D shopping environment is going to require expensive technology like the P4. I know enthusiasts can never have enough power, but for the majority of the home PC market, CPU speed is not the limiting factor. And as we all know, for games, the video card you use makes all the difference in the world. CPU is secondary.

I made the original post because it really struck me how directionless Intel looks (or at least their marketing department). It seems like they developed a product and now they need to create buyers from air. The P4 does have some very good potential and looks to scale up in speed quickly over time. The P4 may also become the dominant CPU in the future as well. But this is the worst reception the marketplace has ever given to a new Intel CPU...and for good reason. It's not worth the expense and the quote I originally posted is a marvel of clueless marketing gobbledy-beloved patriot.

 

[Texmaster]

<< yes, you caught me, I'm deathly afraid of coming up and saying your name. I feel terrible that you think me coward. >>



Its ok. You screwed up no biggie. I wont bring it up again.


In your typical &quot;thorough&quot; post, you conviently forgot to mention this little tidbit:



<< Wow. Talk about getting off the main point and getting into another classis AMD/Intel war. Oh well. BTW, to the person who said that mithrandir just focused on the &quot;silly&quot; portion of the statement and ignored the &quot;gaming&quot; part, look up. >>



And of course as I stated, I never even mentioned his name nor did I even use a single person as a reference, in fact it was plural. But of course you knew that right? LOL

I know its a little hard for you to be confrontational but you should try it more, get out of that shell.



<< But if you want I can also commend you for using &quot;LOL&quot; the most. >>



Thank you but you deserve the credit. Your ignorant statements keep it amusing.

As I said before, next time read someone's post thoroughly before attacking. It will save you the embarassment.

 

[Duvie]

texmaster,

&quot;Thank you but you deserve the credit. Your ignorant statements keep it amusing..&quot;

9 nine days later you are a senior member and I am already tired of your crap...Why don't you try to act a bit more civilized in these discussions? Follow Fklosters and Wingznuts example.

I was guilty of using some names awhile back and realized the only one who looks foolish is the one calling the names. Find joy in writing a well thought out reply that gets the point across without zealot tactics and childish comments.

OK so your first 125 plus post were worthless...you are learning...now try acting like a senior member...

 

[SpideyCU]

Texmaster, to date you have not said one meaningful thing in this thread. You simply keep rehashing your childish statements and playing semantics which bear no fruit. If you're truly starved for attention, go post some coupon codes in the Hot Deals forum or something (of course you might not even be familiar with the rules there seeing as you've been here a very LONG time, eh?). This is the final time I will even bother to acknowledge your presence.

Mirth, while it may make the best economical sense to purchase after hardware has fallen in price, not everyone does that. There're always folks that'll want to have &quot;the best&quot; no matter what the cost; I believe that's what's been fueling what exists of P4 sales these days. However, the fact that this platform &quot;should&quot; provide longevity is a moot point with that crowd since they'll probably jump on the next big thing as well...it's a real kicker. The folks who buy on the upper side of the price curve for that tiny bit more performance will always fuel our economy, and God bless 'em. Heck, there were people crazy enough to purchase RDRAM for the PIII, and we all remember the substantial boost that gave us.

 

[fkloster]

<< Heck, there were people crazy enough to purchase RDRAM for the PIII, and we all remember the substantial boost that gave us. >>




(...Ouch, that was me back in January of 1999 w/my i820 based ASUS P3C-E Oh well, At least I'm using the same PC-800 memory that I have owned for 2-1/2 years )

 

[smp]

Putting people down is disgracefull. Just because I like this or that product for whatever reason. That's fvckin bigotry for chrissakes. Are we still living in the colonial slave days? I agree with all intelligent posts. Both are good. I think that Modus said it best though when he said



<< they consistently manage to generate incredible brand recognition and sell chips that are, for the majority of users, overkill. >>



and also



<< they are building the most complex machines in the universe next to life itself. I can think of no other technology which requires the precise placement and layout of litteraly millions of components less than 0.0000001mm in diameter. It boggles my mind >>



Nice post Modus. Let's all relax and praise whatever you believe in (god, allah, money, whatever) for having a computer PERIOD!!! Only like 6% of the world's population is on the internet. Halleluya, I got's me a P90 and I can IRC.. that is a beautiful thing.

 

[sandorski]

More marketing gibberish. It worked with MMX, kinda worked for 3dnow, sort of worked for SSE, made little difference for 3dnow+(or extended 3dnow), and I don't see much enthusiasm for SSE2. The consumer is getting educated, finally.

 

[SpideyCU]

Heh heh, I had a feeling you might have fkloster since you said you preferred the P4 for top performance even though it cost quite a bit more. I figured you were just that kinda person. At least you held onto it and are still making use of it.

Edit: just outta curiosity, how much did that little puppy set ya back? I remember when that stuff cost more than a new system...I figured a relative would have to die for me to afford those goodies!

 

[Gstanfor]

Wingznut, wingznut, wingznut...



<< &quot;upgrade path&quot;

Heh, this is my current soapbox... People talk about how AMD is going to stick with Socket A for a while, as if that's some incentive. I'm guessing it's because they assume they can buy a setup today, and in 6-12 months just replace the cpu. Well, think of it this way. Had you purchased a top of the line motherboard 12 months ago, you wouldn't be using it with a top Tbird today. Even if you had purchased the motherboard six months ago, you'd still be much better off getting a new motherboard. I have no doubt the same will be true in six months from now, especially if the SIS and nForce chipsets pan out.

And frankly, I can't even imagine how a current motherboard would work very well (if at all) with a .13um cpu, when those eventually come around. Even though AMD has intentions of making their .13um cpu's work on the current Socket A, I'd be real surprised if it happened with any success. >>



Need I remind you of Socket7 and the state Intel left it in (233mhz Pentium MMX) vs the state AMD left it in 600mhz K63+, with technologies such as .18 manufacturing process, ondie L2 cache, SIMD instruction set, PowerNow, low voltage operation and more?

Greg

 

[Wingznut]

Riiight. And the K6-3 performed how well next to a Slot 1 cpu?

Wait, aren't you the guy who posted a private message from pm? Hmmm...

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Wow, I must first say that this thread contains, by far, the most civilized exchange (aka &quot;war&quot between two memebers theat I've seen in over a year and a half.

Gentlemen, you have my respect, despite your differences.

Now, to the subject, which, I believe, has to do with future developments in the computer world.

Right before reading this thread, I saw the other thread concerning the Rambus lawsuit. It seems Rambus will lose.

This afflux of cheap, high-speed memory has the potential to establish a breakthrough for a certain part of the processor market... do you see where this is going?

Also, if ATI really goes to doing what it needed to do earlier - that is, allow other companies use its Radeon, and the upcoming Radeon 2, we're definitely going to see a change in the market, in a few months from now.

Indeed, the obsolescence factor is something to be afraid of. I wonder how long my own P3-900/Geforce 2/SBlive Platinum! setup will be able to keep up with the wave.

 

[Gstanfor]

What has the performance of a K6-3+ vs a slot1 cpu got to do with the discussion?

But since you asked, if you exclude FPU tasks the original K6-3 450 outperformed intels P3 450 in integer tasks, go look at some of the reviews at the time.

Yes, I am the person who posted a private message from PM. And everytime an intel employee comes into these forums trying to talk AMD down, he can expect an argument out of me.

Greg

 

[Doctorweir]

Uh? Damn, I am browsing that much, I need this text-optimized P4 for perfect Web-experience...
I'd better also buy a Geforce because of this T&amp;L (Text and Language) support...

slowly walking away to the next hw store...

Buahahhahahaaa

 

[Wingznut]

&quot;And everytime an intel employee comes into these forums trying to talk AMD down, he can expect an argument out of me.&quot;

Well, don't worry. You won't get an argument in return. As a matter of fact, you won't even get a reply from here on out, because it's obvious you have an agenda, and rational discussion is not a part of it.

 

[Gstanfor]

I'm not the one with the agenda...

You and PM are the people who have made misleading statements about AMD vs Intel on these forums; I've merely burst your bubble for you.

If you are going to comment, get your comments correct, or I'll correct them for you.

Greg

 

[StanFL]

I could care less about who's been pissin on whom in the posts to date. The thread is called Pentium 4 comments, here's mine:

Where I work we sell components (not whole systems). I've personally sold and seen go out the door at least 50 P4's with mobos (Intel 850 boards), many with the rest of the system components as well. My other co-workers have sold many, many more as well. We've only been carrying P4's for 3 months to accumulate those numbers.

We have not had ONE cpu or motherboard come back with a problem, NOT ONE!! I don't even believe a P4 owner has had to call our tech support. They just flat out work.

I wish I could say the same about other platforms.

 

[bjc112]

i like the p4.. but i can't afford it!

i still say, why don;t people just get what is the best price/performance out..
instead of &quot;hail Intel&quot; or &quot;AMD is god&quot; !!

Fkloster..

good post about who needs an upgrade path !!

Bryan