*ultra snip*
What you all will no doubt realize is that in spite of these arguments, you still prefer a world without Gods. This is our sin, that we prefer to make our own way; when God has shown a path to life and meaning and fullness of joy that is freely offered to all if we will admit our rebellion, repent, and ask for forgiveness.
Are YOU serious? Do you think an Atheist would kill or rape someone if they knew they wouldn't get caught?
The bible doesn't say that you'd go to hell for "accidentally stealing a pen" from anyone.
At least his medication fails.
The tomb of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The nether world is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
Across the River Styx, out of the lamplight
His nemesis is waiting at the gate
The Snow Dog, ermine glowing in the damp night
Coal-black eyes shimmering with hate.
By-Tor and the Snow Dog
Square for battle, let the fray begin.
The battle's over and the dust is clearing
Disciples of the Snow Dog sound the knell
Rejoicing echoes as the dawn is nearing
By-Tor in defeat retreats to Hell
Snow Dog is victorious
The land of the Overworld is saved again.
It's considered normal to some day realize that Santa Claus isn't real; so why do people continue to believe in religion? It has the same degree of implausibility as believing in Santa Claus, yet people take the make believe seriously?
*ehem*
commandment number 8, "thou shall not steal">gods law> you break it, you may go to hell after you die, if you don't repent. amirite? If I worshiped another god and don't repent, I may also go to hell. Wether I "accidently" took a pen from a bank or stealing someones car, stealing is stealing.
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Ahem... Matthew 22
So what are people supposed to do? Ignore the 10 commandments?
It matters because we say it matters.Why does this matter? Why does the progression of humanity matter?
Again, it's arbitrary. No, the Universe doesn't care what's good for humanity.So? Why does it matter if it's ideal? Ideal according to who? The universe and everything else doesn't care what is ideal for humanity or not.
No, our need to survive is instinctual, brought on by eons of evolution. A life form with a powerful drive to survive is more likely to do so than one that really doesn't give a damn. (No evolutionary need for us to survive? Buh...wha?)See above. Does not matter if any of these things happen or not. They are nice for us, but whether or not our species survives does not matter. There is no evolutionary need for us to survive. Our need to survive is assumed. To pass on our genes, to reproduce-- why does it matter if we reproduce or not, if we survive? It doesn't.
And that's where we diverge.No deity required to act this way but there _IS_ a deity required to explain why we prefer it to be this way and why we consistently choose to erect societies where these morals are upheld. Survival of the society is not an explanation, because as I have already shown, survival of society does not matter to the universe or anything for that matter. There is no need for us to survive that evolution can fill/meet in an atheistic worldview.
Yes, the same old "people are bad widdle critters" thing.What you all will no doubt realize is that in spite of these arguments, you still prefer a world without God. This is our sin, that we prefer to make our own way; when God has shown a path to life and meaning and fullness of joy that is freely offered to all if we will admit our rebellion, repent, and ask for forgiveness.
It matters because we say it matters.
As George Carlin said about our "morals":
"We made the whole thing up!"
Humans have rights? Some of these rights are supposedly god-given? Yeah right, that's why governments - human-made governments - are needed to spell them out, and in places where it's not spelled out, these "divine rights" are taken away so very easily. Hell, we even discard them when it's convenient, or when we're paranoid and scared.
Were you of Japanese descent, living in the US during WWII? Uh oh, suddenly some of those god-given rights of yours are gone, and we're going to lock you away for a little while, because we're scared of you.
Rights go away whenever a government wants them to go away. You'd think something granted by divinity would be more difficult to revoke.
Likewise, why does progression matter? Because we say it does. Simple as that. The world is our sandbox, it's up to us to figure out what we want to do with it. Some people choose to believe that there's a Sandbox Master watching over the sandbox, who's going to tell them how to play. Thing is, no one can see this Sandbox Master, and some of us are of the school of thought that faith, or belief in that for which there is no evidence, is really not all it's cracked up to be. We choose things like the scientific method, which is based largely on observation. That which cannot be observed, and that whose effects cannot even be observed, is of little consequence to us. If you can't see it, and it has no visible effect on us or our environment, then for all intents and purposes, it does not exist. Case in point: The invisible Sandbox Master.
Again, it's arbitrary. No, the Universe doesn't care what's good for humanity.
Humanity does care, thus it's something of a concern to us. But of course we can't all agree on what "ideal" is. Thus far, the best way we have to deal with this is democracy in some form. It's a way of saying that we all can't have exactly what we want, but your voice can at least have some influence on our direction. It's a way of sharing dissatisfaction.
Though really, I'd say that, given the standard of living in this country, I think that the level of dissatisfaction is quite tolerable.
No, our need to survive is instinctual, brought on by eons of evolution. A life form with a powerful drive to survive is more likely to do so than one that really doesn't give a damn. (No evolutionary need for us to survive? Buh...wha?)
"Oh no, that predator is going to eat me! Bah....who cares."
*munch*
Apathy just got digested out of the gene pool.
Life with some kind of drive to preserve itself is more likely to do so, it's as simple as that. If life never developed any such drive, we likely wouldn't be here to ask any silly questions.
And that's where we diverge.
Fine, this deity, where'd he come up with these rules for existence? Why is his way the right way? Who made him the dictator of everything? (For that matter, how does anyone know that God is truly good?)
Yes, the same old "people are bad widdle critters" thing.
Where's this path shown? Where's this whole thing of forgiveness coming from? The Bible?
(And perhaps to answer Zstream's "definition of god" issue from before as well...):
Time to pull out the Wheel of Faith.
How do you know God is good? How do you know the path God's set out.
It says so in the Bible.
(Which, interestingly enough, why would you need evidence to support your faith-based belief?)
How can you trust what's in the Bible?
The Bible says it's valid.
And yet somehow that's not circular logic.
The only missing piece is faith, which is pretty much useless anyway.
Mental hospitals have quite a few people who have great faith that their worldview is correct - and that's why they're in there. I can have 100% faith that I can fly, but gravity really doesn't care what I think.
When real reality confronts the imagined reality in our brains, real reality always wins.
I dunno... personally, I always trying actually reading the subject material of whatever it is I'm trying to criticize BEFORE I criticize it. I suggest you do the same.
In ancient Jewish/Mosaic law, there are 613 commandments (of which the Christian 10 are but a part of). In Matthew 22 there, a lawyer (of the time) is asking Jesus (as teacher, meaning rabbi), which of those 613 is the most important (because those 613 commandments were the same as law then). It's a trick question, because none of the commandments is supposed to be more important than any other, but Jesus' answer is quite excellent, no?
What you're missing here is that all religions teach the ethic of reciprocity. You don't not commit evil because you fear God's judgment, to think so would be missing the point, both for the atheists and religious alike. Instead, you do good because you wish for good to be done to you, and you choose not to do evil because you don't want evil to be done to you. IOQ, you don't not steal because stealing could lead to jail, you don't steal because you don't want others to steal from you.
Make sense?
I think you missed my point. Your sole reason for not misbehaving is because of the consequences of being caught. what if you won't get caught?
That's ridiculous. This thread is very illuminating because the christians posting in it have some extremely strange ideas as to how atheists think. Maybe you guys should do less telling in these threads and more listening.
People do not need god to tell them to be good to one another any more than any other animal needs god to. Altruism and goodness to others is pervasive throughout many social animals throughout the animal kingdom, and I doubt that each one of them is doing it to impress jesus or because a corresponding gorilla, orangutan, or vampire bat was crucified for their sins.
You guys seem to be trying to cram the evidence into your perception of how the world must work instead of the other way around, and the evidence is right in front of you. While you can never prove a negative, I am about as certain as it is possible to be that there is no god. I find the evidence for one nonexistent, and that there is no need for one anyway. Yet I do not go around raping, pillaging, and murdering. I take satisfaction in my life. I feel a sense of purpose, I am kind to my friends and neighbors, and I pet puppies when I see them.
Maybe you should be asking me or yourself why and how others accomplish this instead of arrogantly telling me that you know how I should feel.
Oh good, the Atheist Missionaries are back spreading the sacred word.
Erm, I hate to tell you this, but the reasons the days of modern easter and christmas fall on the days they due is because of the Romans. When you have a large population that already celebrated those days due to the equinoxes and tell them they are now christian what do you think they are going to do. Keep on celebrating them by making them christian holidays.
The rest of your post I couldn't make heads or tails of.
What you're missing here is that all religions teach the ethic of reciprocity. You don't not commit evil because you fear God's judgment, to think so would be missing the point, both for the atheists and religious alike. Instead, you do good because you wish for good to be done to you, and you choose not to do evil because you don't want evil to be done to you. IOQ, you don't not steal because stealing could lead to jail, you don't steal because you don't want others to steal from you.
Make sense?
Not true. . Look at the ethical statements found in the Hadith and Koran. A Muslim should not lie, cheat, kill or steal from other Muslims but a Muslim may indeed lie, deceive or kill an unbeliever if it advances Islam. (see Al-Takeyya or verses of sword)
Do what I do, just don't open the door.
Man Zebo there is were more to you than I thought . But would you expand on the above. Whats your thoughts on lieing killing ect ect of nonbelievers.