people who kill themselves: ?

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: sao123

its refreshing to think that some guy names moses started a religion which has lasted for overs 6 thousand years, furthermore, it still has more followeers worldwide than any other. Finally it has a significant nonzero chance that it is actually true.

Other than slinging mudd towards the people who believe that which has not nor will be proven untrue...what the hell have or will you ever accomplish in your lifetime that could even begin to compare.

It has the same "significant non-zero chance" of being true as reaching into your pocket and finding a miniature, living giraffe in a custom-tailored armani suit with built-in diving apparatus. That is to say, it has the same chance as anything you can possibly dream up. Wow that really places it in an exclusive group, don't you think?

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
An interesting theological and/or ethical question. Unfortunately I'm not exactly qualified to answer it as I'm not really sure how to frame my argument. I am Catholic and as many of you know the church has some very detailed positions about it. I can't say I agree with some of what they say though. I've heard it said that 'suicide is how people die from depression'. However, some people do commit suicide for selfish/sinful reasons. I don't think that there is a blanket answer to the question. I suppose I would say that it depends on how much a person is in control of their mental faculties. The mentally ill probably won't burn, but the 'I'm not going to prison' crowd just might. It really depends on the circumstances.

/flamesuit

lolreligion

Ummm....tell us how you really feel?

It's refreshing to see someone claiming to be Catholic and not automatically jumping to the "suicide is sin and everyone who does it will go to hell" garbage.

However, even though nobody knows what happens after death because it's not observable, measurable, or repeatable, I think it's funny that people resort to conjuring up magic invisible zombie deities and believing it without a shred of evidence to try explaining the unknown.

its refreshing to think that some guy names moses started a religion which has lasted for overs 6 thousand years, furthermore, it still has more followeers worldwide than any other. Finally it has a significant nonzero chance that it is actually true.

Other than slinging mudd towards the people who believe that which has not nor will be proven untrue...what the hell have or will you ever accomplish in your lifetime that could even begin to compare.

These lines, such failure.

First, the chance is almost certainly zero. (Things which exist -divided by- things which don't exist) Second, we don't have to prove you wrong, because you're making a claim of existence, meaning you have the burden of proof to show that god, in fact, does exist.


Deluding people for 6000 years isn't something to be proud of.

 

[IronWing]

They die. Their albums sell like hotcakes.

 

[shortylickens]

Yup, this is one of those few threads that went EXACTLY where I thought it would.
All we need now is the P&N crowd and we'll have ourselves a royal bitch-fest.

 

[TestedAcorn]

You ever seen Wristcutters: A love story?

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

The relationship between faith and reason is a very complicated one.

It's really not complicated at all. The more humans learn about science and reason the less they rely on religion. In fact, the church did nothing but obstruct science with an iron fist for hundreds of years.

Religion is a crutch for people who either don't want to think or are too afraid to accept the unknown.

The feelings of confliction and complication only enter the picture when one begins to realize that the beliefs they've been taught not to question may not be true.

Wow, you fail. Have you ever actually studied theology? They are very delicately intertwined, but that does not mean that they conflict. The only 'conflict' arises is when people use religion to answer questions that science is useful for and vice-versa. Such a simplistic view of a linear scale of science and religion to answer any question or to show the 'progress' of humanity only shows you to be ignorant about both.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: thepd7
Really John? Drunk at 11 AM?

ya, really, he's slipping. He waited far too long to crack the first one!

*cracks another

cheers john!

For someone who is drinking, JohnCU is oddly quiet on the IRC channel.

:beer: anyway...

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
However, if you postulate that existence is more than a mere physical one, it opens up a lot more questions. If you try to frame such a question in purely scientific terms, you really seem to be putting blinders on yourself (imho).

Anyone can postulate anything, but with no evidence whatsoever to back it up, such postulation is nothing more than idle thought.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Nik


It's refreshing to see someone claiming to be Catholic and not automatically jumping to the "suicide is sin and everyone who does it will go to hell" garbage.

However, even though nobody knows what happens after death because it's not observable, measurable, or repeatable, I think it's funny that people resort to conjuring up magic invisible zombie deities and believing it without a shred of evidence to try explaining the unknown.

The relationship between faith and reason is a very complicated one. Being part of the church (or any organized religion) should not strip one's ability to think rationally for themselves. It is true that nobody knows what happens to you after death aside from what is physically observable (worm food). However, if you postulate that existence is more than a mere physical one, it opens up a lot more questions. If you try to frame such a question in purely scientific terms, you really seem to be putting blinders on yourself (imho).

One could easily frame the question in terms of ethics/philosophy. Is sucide morally wrong? If so, why and to what extent? You don't necessarily have to jump to theology to answerr the question. Even so, you are left with the same use of appealing to 'evidence' of something not physically measurable - a sense of ethincs/morality/right/wrong. You cannot restrict yourself to a purely scientific mindset here either. However, reason/logic plays just as important a role. You cannot separate reason from any way you frame the question.

If there's no evidence, why believe? How do you know you're believing in the right no-evidence no-reason-to-believe faith?

 

[clamum]

They become an heros.

 

[ahenkel]

I get their stuff

 

[Perknose]

Successful suicides obviously learn the important lesson that suicide is bad, because NONE of them ever do it again.

 

[IronWing]

People,
People who kill themselves
Are the luckiest people in the world
Were children killing other children
And yet letting our grown-up pride
Hide all the death inside
Killing more like children than children
Killers
Are very special people
They're the luckiest people in the world
Kill one person,
Kill very special person
A knife deep in your calf
Says you are whole now you're half
No more hunger and thirst
But first be a person who kills people
People, people who kill themselves
Are the luckiest people in the world.


yeah, people <sigh>

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Nik


It's refreshing to see someone claiming to be Catholic and not automatically jumping to the "suicide is sin and everyone who does it will go to hell" garbage.

However, even though nobody knows what happens after death because it's not observable, measurable, or repeatable, I think it's funny that people resort to conjuring up magic invisible zombie deities and believing it without a shred of evidence to try explaining the unknown.

The relationship between faith and reason is a very complicated one. Being part of the church (or any organized religion) should not strip one's ability to think rationally for themselves. It is true that nobody knows what happens to you after death aside from what is physically observable (worm food). However, if you postulate that existence is more than a mere physical one, it opens up a lot more questions. If you try to frame such a question in purely scientific terms, you really seem to be putting blinders on yourself (imho).

One could easily frame the question in terms of ethics/philosophy. Is sucide morally wrong? If so, why and to what extent? You don't necessarily have to jump to theology to answerr the question. Even so, you are left with the same use of appealing to 'evidence' of something not physically measurable - a sense of ethincs/morality/right/wrong. You cannot restrict yourself to a purely scientific mindset here either. However, reason/logic plays just as important a role. You cannot separate reason from any way you frame the question.

If there's no evidence, why believe? How do you know you're believing in the right no-evidence no-reason-to-believe faith?

believing is the essence of faith, faith the essence of religion.
contrary to popular opinion round here, john 3:16 does not say

For God so loveth the world, that he gave his only begotten son, tha whoever shall proveth that God existeth shall have everlasting life.

If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Nik


It's refreshing to see someone claiming to be Catholic and not automatically jumping to the "suicide is sin and everyone who does it will go to hell" garbage.

However, even though nobody knows what happens after death because it's not observable, measurable, or repeatable, I think it's funny that people resort to conjuring up magic invisible zombie deities and believing it without a shred of evidence to try explaining the unknown.

The relationship between faith and reason is a very complicated one. Being part of the church (or any organized religion) should not strip one's ability to think rationally for themselves. It is true that nobody knows what happens to you after death aside from what is physically observable (worm food). However, if you postulate that existence is more than a mere physical one, it opens up a lot more questions. If you try to frame such a question in purely scientific terms, you really seem to be putting blinders on yourself (imho).

One could easily frame the question in terms of ethics/philosophy. Is sucide morally wrong? If so, why and to what extent? You don't necessarily have to jump to theology to answerr the question. Even so, you are left with the same use of appealing to 'evidence' of something not physically measurable - a sense of ethincs/morality/right/wrong. You cannot restrict yourself to a purely scientific mindset here either. However, reason/logic plays just as important a role. You cannot separate reason from any way you frame the question.

If there's no evidence, why believe? How do you know you're believing in the right no-evidence no-reason-to-believe faith?

believing is the essence of faith, faith the essence of religion.
contrary to popular opinion round here, john 3:16 does not say

For God so loveth the world, that he gave his only begotten son, tha whoever shall proveth that God existeth shall have everlasting life.

If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123
If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

That's just your belief, Nik.

 

[CrackRabbit]

How about you try it and report back here.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123
If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

That's just your belief, Nik.

That's right. It is. However, I asked sao a question and I'm waiting for a reply

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123
If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

That's just your belief, Nik.

But his belief is justified, yours isn't. Get over it.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123
If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

That's just your belief, Nik.

That's right. It is. However, I asked sao a question and I'm waiting for a reply

Yeah, but the point is, your question can't possibly pertain to sao if he believes otherwise. You understand that, don't you?

You are making a suppostion (not real) that even you agree is just your belief.

You can't just treat this belief of yours as established fact which somehow contravenes his belief, as a basis for asking the question you did.

Simply put, by your own admission here, your question is logical nonsense based on your unprovable supposition.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123
If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

That's just your belief, Nik.

But his belief is justified, yours isn't. Get over it.

My belief that something that doesn't exist isn't justified but his belief in something that isn't real is?

:laugh:

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123
If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

That's just your belief, Nik.

But his belief is justified, yours isn't. Get over it.

Beliefs of every stripe are just that, beliefs, based on suppostions that can't be PROVEN, which is ispo facto why they are called beliefs and not facts.

You can't prove or disprove the existence of God. Ultimately, for each side, it is what they chose to believe.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123
If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

That's just your belief, Nik.

But his belief is justified, yours isn't. Get over it.

My belief that something that doesn't exist isn't justified but his belief in something [...] is?

:laugh:

:thumbsup:

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Nik


It's refreshing to see someone claiming to be Catholic and not automatically jumping to the "suicide is sin and everyone who does it will go to hell" garbage.

However, even though nobody knows what happens after death because it's not observable, measurable, or repeatable, I think it's funny that people resort to conjuring up magic invisible zombie deities and believing it without a shred of evidence to try explaining the unknown.

The relationship between faith and reason is a very complicated one. Being part of the church (or any organized religion) should not strip one's ability to think rationally for themselves. It is true that nobody knows what happens to you after death aside from what is physically observable (worm food). However, if you postulate that existence is more than a mere physical one, it opens up a lot more questions. If you try to frame such a question in purely scientific terms, you really seem to be putting blinders on yourself (imho).

One could easily frame the question in terms of ethics/philosophy. Is sucide morally wrong? If so, why and to what extent? You don't necessarily have to jump to theology to answerr the question. Even so, you are left with the same use of appealing to 'evidence' of something not physically measurable - a sense of ethincs/morality/right/wrong. You cannot restrict yourself to a purely scientific mindset here either. However, reason/logic plays just as important a role. You cannot separate reason from any way you frame the question.

If there's no evidence, why believe? How do you know you're believing in the right no-evidence no-reason-to-believe faith?

believing is the essence of faith, faith the essence of religion.
contrary to popular opinion round here, john 3:16 does not say

For God so loveth the world, that he gave his only begotten son, tha whoever shall proveth that God existeth shall have everlasting life.

If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

my personal experiences are enough to prove to me it is real, which is not to say it will prove it to you, nor will I try.

My motivation is simple: to spend eternity with Jesus Christ in heaven, as opposed to in a lake of fire for eternal punishment.

I dont need proof, only faith.

you however who needs proof, there is one available for you...eventually

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Nik


It's refreshing to see someone claiming to be Catholic and not automatically jumping to the "suicide is sin and everyone who does it will go to hell" garbage.

However, even though nobody knows what happens after death because it's not observable, measurable, or repeatable, I think it's funny that people resort to conjuring up magic invisible zombie deities and believing it without a shred of evidence to try explaining the unknown.

The relationship between faith and reason is a very complicated one. Being part of the church (or any organized religion) should not strip one's ability to think rationally for themselves. It is true that nobody knows what happens to you after death aside from what is physically observable (worm food). However, if you postulate that existence is more than a mere physical one, it opens up a lot more questions. If you try to frame such a question in purely scientific terms, you really seem to be putting blinders on yourself (imho).

One could easily frame the question in terms of ethics/philosophy. Is sucide morally wrong? If so, why and to what extent? You don't necessarily have to jump to theology to answerr the question. Even so, you are left with the same use of appealing to 'evidence' of something not physically measurable - a sense of ethincs/morality/right/wrong. You cannot restrict yourself to a purely scientific mindset here either. However, reason/logic plays just as important a role. You cannot separate reason from any way you frame the question.

If there's no evidence, why believe? How do you know you're believing in the right no-evidence no-reason-to-believe faith?

believing is the essence of faith, faith the essence of religion.
contrary to popular opinion round here, john 3:16 does not say

For God so loveth the world, that he gave his only begotten son, tha whoever shall proveth that God existeth shall have everlasting life.

If you think religion needs proof in order that you should believe in it, you have no understanding of religion at all.

So what's your motivation to believe in something that's not real?

my personal experiences are enough to prove to me it is real, which is not to say it will prove it to you, nor will I try.

My motivation is simple: to spend eternity with Jesus Christ in heaven, as opposed to in a lake of fire for eternal punishment.

I dont need proof, only faith.

I have faith that, when I die, I will be reincarnated in Valhalla into a glorious battle where I will fight next to my comrades in arms until I'm killed and then I'll be reborn on earth to live another peaceful life before dying and being reborn in Valhalla again.

My religion is right and yours is wrong. My personal experiences are enough to prove to me it is real. I don't need proof, only faith.

:roll: