hah it's funny that you ask about the tolerances. That head mounting apparatus actually costs $6000 because it has to be made to the tightest tolerances. The measurements are accurate to a tenth of a millimeter. The way to locate exactly what brain region penetrated is to make measurements relative to the earbars. I would've thought that there would be more variation in rats for something that's the size of a pinhead for a single nucleus of the hypothalamus, but supposedly it's extremely precise to make measurements from the earbars.God this kind of attitude disgusts me! "They are not aware of what is happening to them..." That's precisely the idea!
OP: Awesome stuff! What are the tolerances on that equipment? How much can you miss by while drilling/cutting, without ending up with a snack instead of a science experiment? Ever kill any by accident? What are you working on?
just don't fap too much Francis...you may want to get your Curious George tat touched up for the weekend. Competition is stiff *wink wink*
Bully's the wrong word, but you're right about backing down.
God this kind of attitude disgusts me! "They are not aware of what is happening to them..." That's precisely the idea!
No, that is why it is sad.
Performing scientific experiments involving cutting open the brain on small animals who have no idea what is happening to them makes it sad because it invokes a lot of unrecognizable fear and pain for the animal.
Like I said, it's just sad. Doesn't mean we don't need to do it but it also doesn't mean you should be grateful for the sacrifices of the mice.
Noble creatures.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
No, that is why it is sad.
Performing scientific experiments involving cutting open the brain on small animals who have no idea what is happening to them makes it sad because it invokes a lot of unrecognizable fear and pain for the animal.
Like I said, it's just sad. Doesn't mean we don't need to do it but it also doesn't mean you should be grateful for the sacrifices of the mice.
Noble creatures.
Is your name Willard by any chance?
How is it fearful or painful when they're drugged beyond all get out?
the common standard policy to sac mice, is to blast them with CO2. It is considered the most humane method, b/c it is believed by those who write this policy, and have obviously never performed these techniques, that CO2 simply puts them to sleep.
This is far from true. Put any number of mice in a small aquarium, close the lid, and blast in CO2. They'll jump, claw, tear each other pieces, do whatever they can to get the fuck out. it takes about 1 minutes for them to settle down, then 2 or 3 more, depending on size and age, to actually die.
It's suffocating. It's the exact same thing as drowning, or being in a burning house. It's pretty fucking terrible, actually.
as far as anesthetizing, it's usually done with an injection for short quick surgeries. Of course, mice don't like to be grabbed, immobilized at their necks, and have a giant needle plunged into their lower abdomen. They will absolutely bite and claw if you give them that chance.
Now, on this point, I won't criticize you again for making simple assumptions with zero knowledge to back it up, as your experience...is essentially zero. Whereas I, and obviously quite a few others in this thread have done this on a daily basis. Not only that, but the idiots that implement such policy seem just as clueless.
The most humane way to sac a mouse is a quick decapitation, or cervical dislocation, which is pretty much what most researches will do if they're only working with one mouse.
Rats are actually a bit more docile than mice, though. It's rare, in comparison, for them to bite.
I was asking about drugs, not CO2.
Additionally, what does your explanation have to do with the OP's lab? I can't be bothered to re-read this whole thread to look for it, but I don't believe the OP's said his rat was blasted with CO2.
The only one making assumptions here is you. You don't have a clue what kind of experience or knowledge I have. Keep trying, though. I'm entertained.
Why do you keep posting in threads like this when it's clear that the discussion has become a small flame fest? It was the same in the Haiti thread a while back and others.
The same reason you're driven to reply.
I was asking about drugs, not CO2.
Additionally, what does your explanation have to do with the OP's lab? I can't be bothered to re-read this whole thread to look for it, but I don't believe the OP's said his rat was blasted with CO2.
The only one making assumptions here is you. You don't have a clue what kind of experience or knowledge I have. Keep trying, though. I'm entertained.
as far as anesthetizing, it's usually done with an injection for short quick surgeries. Of course, mice don't like to be grabbed, immobilized at their necks, and have a giant needle plunged into their lower abdomen. They will absolutely bite and claw if you give them that chance.
I was driven to reply earlier in the thread because I felt that I had something to input but when I saw that I was talking to a brick wall in terms of swaying peoples opinion I didn't see the need to continue.
you've made it perfectly clear that you haven't worked in a lab, with mice. this much is obvious. You also didn't read what I wrote about anesthesia. which is directly related to your "It's under, what the fuck does it know about pain?" comment.
seriously dude...crack kills, nicky boy.
OMG, look, I copy and pasted my comment for you! I actually went out of my way to repost my comment, b/c I know you are blind to information:
now, please tell me again how that doesn't relate to your "question about drugs."
so you do brain surgery? meh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
One doesn't need to be Willard to feel for mice and rats. Rats are surprisingly smart animals and make good pets.
lol brain surgery actually was surprisingly easy, well when you're working with expendable subjects at least. Just align everything up and dial the knobs to the correct coordinates.
My cats and dogs I have owned have proven time and time again they do not operate on pure instinct or hormones/etc. They are definitely sentient and think. Yes, they do operate in the 'moment', but they also remember. They have a much much much simpler conscious than a human...they just are looking to make tomorrow better most of the time or even just as good. While we are looking at 1, 5, 10, 50 years down the road.
I'd love to see Nik try to demonstrate that he himself is conscious.
I'll take the negative: Nik is not a sentient being, has no consciousness, and is driven exclusively by primal instinct.
Prove me wrong.