perpetual motion machines

TDSLB

Member
Jun 19, 2001
178
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0
i was wondering about the principle of perpetual motion machines. I understand newtons third law but with gravity acting on a object how can it be self sustaining? what keeps the object from being slowed down by friction/gravity? Are there acually perpetual motion machines or is it just a theory?

I was just thinking about this, I'm sure it's been discussed before but I couldn't find any search results.
 

blahblah99

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 2000
2,689
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One way to do it would be to suspend a disc in a magnetic field in a perfect vacuum. The disc would spin forever once given that initial spin because there would be no losses due to friction from air resistance.
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
To cut a long story very short - "perpetual motion" machines are not feasible. Energy cannot be created and must always be traded. Conservation of energy is the undoing of every "perpetual motion" machine I have ever heard of (and also no one has ever succeded in making one).

With respect to the disc electromagnetically suspended in a perfect vacuum I have a couple of questions (the first 2 being more of a feasibility study rather than a fundamental problem):

1. How do you obtain and then maintain a perfect vacuum (or a perfect anything for that matter)?

2. Is the disc slightly charged? Are there any dipoles present? EM braking would I'm sure come into this if so?

3. What powers the EM field?

Cheers,

Andy
 

PrinceXizor

Platinum Member
Oct 4, 2002
2,188
99
91
While the concept of a perpetual motion machine is fundamentally flawed, the concept of a highly efficient machine that could be used to generate energy from something that is for all practical purposes limitless (like heat) is a neat idea. I remember me and a buddy of mine were thinking about those mechnical birds in birdbaths that move. The head is top heavy and the beak goes in the water. Water travels through the beak to the "back" of the bird, until the back becomes heavier than the head. Then the head rises. Heat from the sun slowly evaporates the water from the back end and it loses weight. The head becomes the heavier part and sinks to the water again. Repeat. My friend and I were considering 100 foot tall versions with magnetic coils and such for generating electricity. Except they would look uglier than #@$.

P-X
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: PrinceXizor
While the concept of a perpetual motion machine is fundamentally flawed, the concept of a highly efficient machine that could be used to generate energy from something that is for all practical purposes limitless (like heat) is a neat idea. I remember me and a buddy of mine were thinking about those mechnical birds in birdbaths that move. The head is top heavy and the beak goes in the water. Water travels through the beak to the "back" of the bird, until the back becomes heavier than the head. Then the head rises. Heat from the sun slowly evaporates the water from the back end and it loses weight. The head becomes the heavier part and sinks to the water again. Repeat. My friend and I were considering 100 foot tall versions with magnetic coils and such for generating electricity. Except they would look uglier than #@$.

P-X

Good for scaring cats though.

Andy
 

BruceLee

Member
Sep 18, 2002
158
0
76
Most patents that are potential perpetual motion machines are not even considered anymore. From my understanding so many guys have tried to make this a reality that now a days the people in charge of granting patents will just disregard something like this without even considering it seriously. It's a great idea, but I doubt it will surface anytime soon as a reality. Maybe one day when the laws we hold today (Thermodynamics) are refuted (or revised) we could see this as a possibility. However, there really isn't much right now in the way of a successful perpetual motion machine. I could be wrong though, I sure haven't kept up with it lately.

edit: Wow, I am really fallin off I can't even formulate sentences correctly, been a long day time for bed.
 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
681
0
0
What Fancer128 says is true. Perpetual motion machines are unfeasable mostly due to conservation of energy. Simply put if work is being done, energy is being used. but once its used it can't be destroyed so it is going to be given off in the form of heat (most likely). Effeciency for any engine is measure by W/Q (work over heat) or
e=1-Qcold/Qhot.
IN order for a perpetual motion machine to work(efficency=1) the ratio given by heat of the hot resivoir over heat of cold resivoir would have to equal 0. and this is, as we know it, impossible because Qcold=Qhot*(Temp cold/temp hot). ANd with heat being given off we cannot achive this. WE could try to cool it but then we would be using energy to cool the hot resivor, thus no perpetual motion.
I hope my ramblings made sense
 

TDSLB

Member
Jun 19, 2001
178
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0
But in that case wouldn't the possibility of one be in space without gravity. If you just started spinning a disc wouldn't it keep spinning for lack of work done?
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: TDSLB
But in that case wouldn't the possibility of one be in space without gravity. If you just started spinning a disc wouldn't it keep spinning for lack of work done?

Are we not moving away from "perpetual motion" machines with that example?

How do you extract the energy in order for its motion to be useful?

How is that then counterbalanced to keep the disc rotating?

I can see lots of examples of how you can have, in theory, perpetual motion. However, this is not feasible in practice (ie there is no perect vacuum nor gravity "free" space) and having perpetual motion does not make a "perpetual motion" machine (In the sense of a never ending supply of energy).

Cheers,

Andy
 

PrinceXizor

Platinum Member
Oct 4, 2002
2,188
99
91
You hit the nail on the head with that post. The whole concept is a paradox...you cannot have something that is in perpetual motion (even if such a thing were possible) and do work (i.e be a "machine") at the same time. I think that someday there will be an efficient enough mechaism that can output a net positive electrical output from ambient heat energy at a high enough current to be useful. But I would hardly call such a mechanism a "perpetual motion machine".

P-X
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
1,547
0
0
What do you mean by "ambient heat"? If you mean getting energy from heat that has been done for centuries, the steam engine is a good example. If you mean "ambinet heat" as in 295 K (room temperature) that is not possible.
Heat is basically disordered energy, you can get "ordered" energy from it but the maximum efficiency is limited by the temperature difference in the system , in ordet to generate electricty from 295 K you need access to a cold "dump" which you would need to cool somehow ...
 

Amorphus

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
5,561
1
0
it's not perpetual motion if you're putting energy into the system to keep it going.

so the bird and water thing wouldn't work, because it utilizes evaporation (*cough* solar energy), it needs water to function, and it needs something to get the water there.

also, perpetual motion is impossible. laws of thermodynamics - energy is in a constant state of decay. if you were able to get a perpetual motion machine, then kudos to you, and I will become an evolutionist, because the floodgates open to allow all the (otherwise flawed) theories of evoltuion to work.

however, "laws" of physics means that it IS true. no doubts, no ifs, no buts. tough, eh?

I'd like to be on a merry-go-round that went on forever. yep.
 

TDSLB

Member
Jun 19, 2001
178
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0
Originally posted by: Amorphus
... laws of thermodynamics - energy is in a constant state of decay. however, "laws" of physics means that it IS true. no doubts, no ifs, no buts. tough, eh?

I'd like to be on a merry-go-round that went on forever. yep.

I'm not saying I know alot about the laws of energy but, doesn't the Law of Consevation of matter say that energy not mass can be destroyed? just reformed right? please enlighten me...

 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: TDSLB
Originally posted by: Amorphus
... laws of thermodynamics - energy is in a constant state of decay. however, "laws" of physics means that it IS true. no doubts, no ifs, no buts. tough, eh?

I'd like to be on a merry-go-round that went on forever. yep.

I'm not saying I know alot about the laws of energy but, doesn't the Law of Consevation of matter say that energy not mass can be destroyed? just reformed right? please enlighten me...

Here's a quick summisation:

1. Energy and mass are interchangable (i.e. E=mc^2)

2. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It only "changes" (i.e. heat --> light --> movement --> etc) This is where "conservation" of energy comes from. The total amount of energy is always constant. If you "lose" energy somewhere it is "gained" elsewhere.

Hope that helps,

Andy
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
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well the initial energy of the universe had to come from somewhere, therefore the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy was false at some point in time, or before time even existed...
 

BruceLee

Member
Sep 18, 2002
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Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
well the initial energy of the universe had to come from somewhere, therefore the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy was false at some point in time, or before time even existed...

Unless of course you are a creationist. However, IIRC there are a number of theories trying to get to the bottom of this little problem of what exactly happened at the beginning of the universe. There was actually a conference about 3 or 4 months ago with some of the top physicists and philosophers concerning the potential theories. A few guys presented their views and discussed what they thought happened. It was pretty cool actually, unfortunately I lost the NY Times article that talked about it.

 

Shalmanese

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,157
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No, the initial energy of the universe is exactly the same as the energy we have now. Its ENTROPHY which has been ramping up since the beginning of the universe.
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
1,547
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As far as I rembember the total energy of the úniverse is exactly zero, gravity supplies the "negative energy", i.e. gravitational energy+the rest of the energy=0

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
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Originally posted by: f95toli
As far as I rembember the total energy of the úniverse is exactly zero, gravity supplies the "negative energy", i.e. gravitational energy+the rest of the energy=0

Well... close.

If the universe popped out of something called de Sitter space, the net energy is 0. It is as if we were living on 1/2 of a virtual particle pair. To us that half is "real", but the other (in this case unobservable) "particle" still exists, equal and opposite. If you were to recombine the two, you would have no net energy. More precisely, the local event of the universe would return to the base energy level of deSitter space and become homogeneous with it. Another way to think of it is like an electron-hole complex in semiconductors, although that is not a precise analogy.
 

imgod2u

Senior member
Sep 16, 2000
993
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"Perpetual motion" is perhaps a flaws term. It doesn't actually mean "constant motion". It refers to the fact that you can't transfer energy indefinitely (transfer energy, not maintain it). If you had a disc spinning in a vacuum, there'd be no transference of energy, the energy-state of that disc will remain the same.

On the other hand, if you had a ball bouncing off two walls (think pong in space), energy is transfered from the ball, to the wall, back to the ball, then to the other wall, etc. Energy is continually being transfered but it cannot go on forever. Free energy is lost with every interaction and entropy increases.

To understand why this is fundamentally so, you'll have to consider how work is done. Work is done through a difference of energy states (a high energy state transfers energy to a low-energy state in the attempt to reach an equilibrium). In order for energy to be perpetually transferred, all of the energy from the high energy state would have to be transferred to the low energy state.

This picture should demonstrate what I'm talking about. After the reaction (transference of energy from high to low state) both states remain idle and none of the energy can be used (because there is no more high or low state). Now, you can either use the remaining energy and find another energy state that's lower (since with each reaction, the total energy state will become more even, it'll become harder and harder to find an energy state that is lower) or you can artificially create a higher energy state (such as lighting up gasoline) so that it can react and produce work.

Either way, with each transference of energy (action-reaction), all the energy states of the universe become more and more even. As it becomes more and more even, less and less work can be done (work relies on high energy states and low energy states, if they're all medium-energy states, no highs and lows, no work can be done). This is what perpetual motion means. That energy transfers (from high to low state) cannot continue indefinitely, each transfer "evens out" the energy states, afterwards, there is no high and low state anymore and hence, no work can be done.

In order for an energy transfer to end up with just as much useful energy as before (that is, there is another high energy state just as high as before and a low energy state just as low as before), you'd have to have a 100% transfer of energy from one place to another. That doesn't happen, not naturally. It would require a 0-level energy state (that is, a place with absolutely no energy). As far as we observe, there is no such place (microwave background radiation appears to exist everywhere).

Now, here's the disclaimer. In order for the above to be true, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. If you could just create energy, you can just generate higher and higher energy states. In recent (not sure just how recent, maybe 10+ years already) experiments, at a very small scale (at the subatomic level), it appears that indeed energy is created and destroyed all the time. It's created in very miniscule amounts (so small that they weren't detected before) and then quickly vanishes again. This was predicted by physicists before it was actually observed (at least, I think that's it). The Uncertainty Principle states that the momentum and position of a particle (which is just a bending of space-time) can be known or predicted. That is, it's not defined. Well, if any point in spacetime was at a certain, definite energy level (say 1 Kelvin), then it is defined and known. If a point in spacetime had no energy (0-level), then that would be known and defined. And so, it was hypothesized that there is an underlying flux (Zero-level energy I think it's called) in which the energy state constantly (and, as far as we can tell, non-deterministically) shifts. With no observable reaction from the outside (no energy being transfered to it), particles (such as an electron) would suddenly gain enough energy to move and break through certain barriers. "Quantum effects" as its sometimes refered to.

If this effect could be harnessed (and in some ways, it can, such as the Casimir effect), it could potentially produce true perpetual motion devices and prevent the universe from dying. After all, if usable energy is constantly diminishing, there will reach a point where there will be no more usable energy in the universe. All energy-states will be the same, no more highs or lows. The universe will reach a state of thermal equilibrium (all points being the same) and no work will be done (and hence, no life). Depressing isn't it?
 

pg22

Platinum Member
Feb 9, 2000
2,644
0
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Say, somehow, someway, a <FONT face=Verdana size=1>perpetual motion machine is created.

What would be the ramifications?</FONT>
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
1,547
0
0
Originally posted by: pg22
Say, somehow, someway, a <FONT face=Verdana size=1>perpetual motion machine is created. What would be the ramifications?</FONT>

The laws of nature as we know them would turn out not to be true. It would be more dramatic than when Kepler demonstrated that the earth is not the center of the universe.

It would be really scary...

 

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,775
3
81
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: TDSLB
Originally posted by: Amorphus
... laws of thermodynamics - energy is in a constant state of decay. however, "laws" of physics means that it IS true. no doubts, no ifs, no buts. tough, eh?

I'd like to be on a merry-go-round that went on forever. yep.

I'm not saying I know alot about the laws of energy but, doesn't the Law of Consevation of matter say that energy not mass can be destroyed? just reformed right? please enlighten me...

Here's a quick summisation:

1. Energy and mass are interchangable (i.e. E=mc^2)

2. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It only "changes" (i.e. heat --> light --> movement --> etc) This is where "conservation" of energy comes from. The total amount of energy is always constant. If you "lose" energy somewhere it is "gained" elsewhere.

Hope that helps,

Andy

Concepts such as the brake system in the toyota Prius and the Honda variant are going in the right direction. Although using somethign as transfering stoping power to a battery, they are finally letting the machine gain back some of its energy.

perhaps a perpetual machine that does work to bat is unachievable, but getting closer and closer to it in terms of efficiency is the way to go.

 
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