Peshawar could Fall

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
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PESHAWAR, June 24: The security situation in Peshawar is grim. Officials in the home department, who evaluate the situation on an almost daily basis, believe declaring a state of red alert is now only a matter of time.

With militants knocking at the gates of the capital of the NWFP, even the more circumspect government and police officials now grudgingly concede that Peshawar, too, could fall in a few months.

?Peshawar is in a state of siege and if Peshawar falls, the rest of the districts in the NWFP would fall like ninepins?, a worried senior government official told Dawn.

It would be a shame if Peshawar were to fall. It is not Swat. It is home to the headquarters of the 11th Corps, the paramilitary Frontier Corps, the Frontier Constabulary and the police.

Also, the optimists amongst us would like to believe that it would require an organised force to take over Peshawar. But the might of the militant groups operating around Peshawar from one to the other end is all too visible and alarming to ignore.

And if there were still any doubts left, that too have been washed away in recent days by the forays made into Peshawar by the ?moral brigade? of Mangal Bagh.

The kidnapping of Christians from one of the NWFP?s biggest teaching hospitals and the sighting of militants in the very heart of the military cantonment has made even the very laid-back sit up and take notice.

Police stations in rural Peshawar have long given up patrolling at night after a contingent was blown up by a rocket-propelled grenade and charred bodies of policemen were retrieved and buried without allowing their dear ones to see their faces for the last time.

So grim has the situation become that a committee that includes Chief Minister Hoti, Governor Owais and the Corps Commander Masood Aslam met on May 31 to discuss possible options for defending Peshawar.

The prime minister?s adviser on interior, Rehman A. Malik, landed in Peshawar on June 19 to discuss the situation. The two meetings, however, yielded no results.

The military, the paramilitary, the constabulary and the police are unable or unwilling to muster enough force to defend the city.

In some ways, this apparent apathy for Peshawar reflects the federal government?s lack of urgency to handle the situation in tribal regions and cope with a possible fallout of the peace agreements it is pursuing with tribal militants.

President Pervez Musharraf ? whose dramatic volte face on the Taliban and alliance with the United States in 2001 largely contributed to the mess in the tribal region, has taken a back seat. The only person constitutionally mandated to

look after Fata, the president has since the Feb 18 elections more or less lost all interest in the borderlands.

Those who have worked with him closely on Fata say that except for occasional briefings, there have been no ?brainstorming meetings? on the subject with key players for months. The last such meeting took place before the general election, according to credible government officials, and they do not even remember the date!

The National Security Council ? another of Musharraf?s controversial brainchild ? met on Nov 8 last year to discuss, among other things, the situation in Fata.

The elected government, despite being in office for nearly three months now, has yet to find its feet.

Bogged down in the judicial crisis and grappling with economic woes, the coalition government seems to have lost sight of an issue that is exposing Pakistan?s sovereignty to great peril.

The parliament has yet to debate Pakistan?s participation in the ?war on terror?, define its rules of engagement and, more important, prepare a comprehensive counter-insurgency strategy.

The initial calls for redefining the ?war on terror? by the newly-elected political leadership have all evaporated into thin air. Fata, for all practical purposes, has gone to the back-burner.

In the absence of a national policy, the military appears to be in the process of reorienting its strategy. The bureaucracy, required to implement the state?s policy on the ground in Fata, remains as clueless as ever.

Little wonder then that administrators of the seven tribal regions and the regional coordination officers in their meeting with Mr Malik last week were unanimous in seeking policy directives.

Such is Pakistan?s tribal dilemma that Mr Rehman Malik, who, as the prime minister?s adviser, has nothing to do with Fata, has assumed its charge.

As a matter of fact, the interior ministry has no jurisdiction over Fata except for allocating funds to the Frontier Corps.

So in the given circumstances, it is the governor, the corps commander of Peshawar and sector commanders of security agencies, who are trying to give some direction to an otherwise directionless Fata policy.

The prevailing situation resembles that of a bus-load of drivers, with no one really at the steering l and the bus lurching from one side to the other.

What can be more ironical that those who are supposed to be in the driver?s seat are pretending to be passengers.

The June 11 bombing of an FC post on Mohmand borders with Afghanistan should have been a wake-up call. Sadly, this does not appear to be happening.

THE government came up with warnings on Tuesday of an army action to crush militancy in the vicinity of Peshawar.

The belated move came after the situation in the NWFP took an ominous turn over the past few days with the fall of Jandola, a town on the road to South Waziristan, to Baitullah Mehsud?s men, the relentless advance of Taliban-led militants towards Peshawar and the Swat scenario defying all fire-fighting attempts.

No less a person than Maulana Fazlur Rehman, the chief of JUI, saw it urgent to ring alarm bells, saying in a statement on Tuesday that the government must act to stop the Taliban march before it was too late.?Dawn report

I can't believe that the situation has deteriorated so much that they are even considering the possibility of a major Pakistan city let alone a provincial capital of falling to the Taliban. WTF is the government doing? If they don't get the big guns out Pakistan will fragment and the "Federal Republic" will be no more. WTF is happening in my country? This is ridiculous! Musharraf shouldn't have upset the tribals in the first place. And now the new government is letting them do whatever the hell they want. I'm shocked and disgusted!

But how can this be real? A well trained modern army can not defend one of its own cities? Or are they just unwilling?


TGB
 

Socio

Golden Member
May 19, 2002
1,732
2
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean
PESHAWAR, June 24: The security situation in Peshawar is grim. Officials in the home department, who evaluate the situation on an almost daily basis, believe declaring a state of red alert is now only a matter of time.

With militants knocking at the gates of the capital of the NWFP, even the more circumspect government and police officials now grudgingly concede that Peshawar, too, could fall in a few months.

?Peshawar is in a state of siege and if Peshawar falls, the rest of the districts in the NWFP would fall like ninepins?, a worried senior government official told Dawn.

It would be a shame if Peshawar were to fall. It is not Swat. It is home to the headquarters of the 11th Corps, the paramilitary Frontier Corps, the Frontier Constabulary and the police.

Also, the optimists amongst us would like to believe that it would require an organised force to take over Peshawar. But the might of the militant groups operating around Peshawar from one to the other end is all too visible and alarming to ignore.

And if there were still any doubts left, that too have been washed away in recent days by the forays made into Peshawar by the ?moral brigade? of Mangal Bagh.

The kidnapping of Christians from one of the NWFP?s biggest teaching hospitals and the sighting of militants in the very heart of the military cantonment has made even the very laid-back sit up and take notice.

Police stations in rural Peshawar have long given up patrolling at night after a contingent was blown up by a rocket-propelled grenade and charred bodies of policemen were retrieved and buried without allowing their dear ones to see their faces for the last time.

So grim has the situation become that a committee that includes Chief Minister Hoti, Governor Owais and the Corps Commander Masood Aslam met on May 31 to discuss possible options for defending Peshawar.

The prime minister?s adviser on interior, Rehman A. Malik, landed in Peshawar on June 19 to discuss the situation. The two meetings, however, yielded no results.

The military, the paramilitary, the constabulary and the police are unable or unwilling to muster enough force to defend the city.

In some ways, this apparent apathy for Peshawar reflects the federal government?s lack of urgency to handle the situation in tribal regions and cope with a possible fallout of the peace agreements it is pursuing with tribal militants.

President Pervez Musharraf ? whose dramatic volte face on the Taliban and alliance with the United States in 2001 largely contributed to the mess in the tribal region, has taken a back seat. The only person constitutionally mandated to

look after Fata, the president has since the Feb 18 elections more or less lost all interest in the borderlands.

Those who have worked with him closely on Fata say that except for occasional briefings, there have been no ?brainstorming meetings? on the subject with key players for months. The last such meeting took place before the general election, according to credible government officials, and they do not even remember the date!

The National Security Council ? another of Musharraf?s controversial brainchild ? met on Nov 8 last year to discuss, among other things, the situation in Fata.

The elected government, despite being in office for nearly three months now, has yet to find its feet.

Bogged down in the judicial crisis and grappling with economic woes, the coalition government seems to have lost sight of an issue that is exposing Pakistan?s sovereignty to great peril.

The parliament has yet to debate Pakistan?s participation in the ?war on terror?, define its rules of engagement and, more important, prepare a comprehensive counter-insurgency strategy.

The initial calls for redefining the ?war on terror? by the newly-elected political leadership have all evaporated into thin air. Fata, for all practical purposes, has gone to the back-burner.

In the absence of a national policy, the military appears to be in the process of reorienting its strategy. The bureaucracy, required to implement the state?s policy on the ground in Fata, remains as clueless as ever.

Little wonder then that administrators of the seven tribal regions and the regional coordination officers in their meeting with Mr Malik last week were unanimous in seeking policy directives.

Such is Pakistan?s tribal dilemma that Mr Rehman Malik, who, as the prime minister?s adviser, has nothing to do with Fata, has assumed its charge.

As a matter of fact, the interior ministry has no jurisdiction over Fata except for allocating funds to the Frontier Corps.

So in the given circumstances, it is the governor, the corps commander of Peshawar and sector commanders of security agencies, who are trying to give some direction to an otherwise directionless Fata policy.

The prevailing situation resembles that of a bus-load of drivers, with no one really at the steering l and the bus lurching from one side to the other.

What can be more ironical that those who are supposed to be in the driver?s seat are pretending to be passengers.

The June 11 bombing of an FC post on Mohmand borders with Afghanistan should have been a wake-up call. Sadly, this does not appear to be happening.

THE government came up with warnings on Tuesday of an army action to crush militancy in the vicinity of Peshawar.

The belated move came after the situation in the NWFP took an ominous turn over the past few days with the fall of Jandola, a town on the road to South Waziristan, to Baitullah Mehsud?s men, the relentless advance of Taliban-led militants towards Peshawar and the Swat scenario defying all fire-fighting attempts.

No less a person than Maulana Fazlur Rehman, the chief of JUI, saw it urgent to ring alarm bells, saying in a statement on Tuesday that the government must act to stop the Taliban march before it was too late.?Dawn report

I can't believe that the situation has deteriorated so much that they are even considering the possibility of a major Pakistan city let alone a provincial capital of falling to the Taliban. WTF is the government doing? If they don't get the big guns out Pakistan will fragment and the "Federal Republic" will be no more. WTF is happening in my country? This is ridiculous! Musharraf shouldn't have upset the tribals in the first place. And now the new government is letting them do whatever the hell they want. I'm shocked and disgusted!

But how can this be real? A well trained modern army can not defend one of its own cities? Or are they just unwilling?

TGB

I believe they are just flat out unwilling, they are Muslim and it goes against their beliefs, they perceive the Taliban as fighting a jihad to take back land that belongs to the Muslim ( Afghanistan).

Their belief with regard to this in a nut shell;

Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.

Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By abandoning a Jihad i.e. fighting instead of aiding the Taliban they believe Islam is destroyed and they fall into an inferior position of weakness. Thus their honor would be lost, as well the rule and authority of Islam and they as Muslims are not allowed to let that happen.

The real scary part is if they continue along this path of religion induced ignorance of reality and allow the Taliban to seize control of Pakistan a Nuclear armed Taliban will not be allowed to exist by anyone on the planet. This would likely result in a preemptive nuclear strikes by ?world? forces as that would be the only way to ensure they could never use Pakistan's nuclear arsenal against anyone else.


 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
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The prevailing situation resembles that of a bus-load of drivers, with no one really at the steering l and the bus lurching from one side to the other.
Pretty much sums up the situation, not only for the provinces but also, perhaps, for the country itself.



 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
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Originally posted by: Socio
The real scary part is if they continue along this path of religion induced ignorance of reality and allow the Taliban to seize control of Pakistan a Nuclear armed Taliban will not be allowed to exist by anyone on the planet. This would likely result in a preemptive nuclear strikes by ?world? forces as that would be the only way to ensure they could never use Pakistan's nuclear arsenal against anyone else.
The pashtuns don't support the taliban because they are muslim. The support them because the Taliban are Pashtuns too.

The situation in Pakistan is somewhat like this. Not too many in the larger two provinces (especially Punjab) really care for NWFP and Balochistan. Both those are poor and both have been fighting for independence. Most of the military is made up of Punjabis and a few Sindhis. Pashtun's and Balochis hardly have a say in it. If Peshawar does fall even for a few hours Pakistan will become fragmented for sure. Balochis will fight harder for independence. Sindh and Punjab have enough issues between themselves to ensure that they will not remain together once the other two seperate. Indpendent; they will be at constant war with each other over the water treaty. Joining the Indian federation would be an option; but I doubt that would come without bloodshed.

As far as the nuclear assets go; we need to start destroying them if it ever comes to the point where Peshawar is lost. The rest of the weaponry should be distributed amongst the provinces which would then get to decide whether to join an adjoining country or to stay independent.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,141
37,452
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Socio
The real scary part is if they continue along this path of religion induced ignorance of reality and allow the Taliban to seize control of Pakistan a Nuclear armed Taliban will not be allowed to exist by anyone on the planet. This would likely result in a preemptive nuclear strikes by ?world? forces as that would be the only way to ensure they could never use Pakistan's nuclear arsenal against anyone else.
The pashtuns don't support the taliban because they are muslim. The support them because the Taliban are Pashtuns too.

The situation in Pakistan is somewhat like this. Not too many in the larger two provinces (especially Punjab) really care for NWFP and Balochistan. Both those are poor and both have been fighting for independence. Most of the military is made up of Punjabis and a few Sindhis. Pashtun's and Balochis hardly have a say in it. If Peshawar does fall even for a few hours Pakistan will become fragmented for sure. Balochis will fight harder for independence. Sindh and Punjab have enough issues between themselves to ensure that they will not remain together once the other two seperate. Indpendent; they will be at constant war with each other over the water treaty. Joining the Indian federation would be an option; but I doubt that would come without bloodshed.

As far as the nuclear assets go; we need to start destroying them if it ever comes to the point where Peshawar is lost. The rest of the weaponry should be distributed amongst the provinces which would then get to decide whether to join an adjoining country or to stay independent.

I'm not sure if I can think of anything more unsettling than loose nukes running around that corner of the world right now should the Pakistani state start to break up.

If that starts to happen I'd support the unilateral forcible retrieval of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal and the destruction of their military nuclear infrastructure. Musharraf would probably tell us where everything is if he hasn't already since the US is not and has never been a strategic threat.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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If that starts to happen I'd support the unilateral forcible retrieval of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal and the destruction of their military nuclear infrastructure.
I would, too. The last thing anybody needs is some broken state with no money and God knows what loyalty to who knows what with nuclear weapons. Unlikely to come to that, though, but I would expect nothing elss than a thorough intervention by the US and hopefully others to sort that out. I can only assume India would assist.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Pakistan crawled into bed with the Taliban.

Now they are finally opening their eyes to see what they slept with.

The government needs to decide what they want to do, how do to it, and get it done.

Even if they have to ask for outside assistance.
 

neodyn55

Senior member
Oct 16, 2007
230
2
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Socio
The real scary part is if they continue along this path of religion induced ignorance of reality and allow the Taliban to seize control of Pakistan a Nuclear armed Taliban will not be allowed to exist by anyone on the planet. This would likely result in a preemptive nuclear strikes by ?world? forces as that would be the only way to ensure they could never use Pakistan's nuclear arsenal against anyone else.
The pashtuns don't support the taliban because they are muslim. The support them because the Taliban are Pashtuns too.

The situation in Pakistan is somewhat like this. Not too many in the larger two provinces (especially Punjab) really care for NWFP and Balochistan. Both those are poor and both have been fighting for independence. Most of the military is made up of Punjabis and a few Sindhis. Pashtun's and Balochis hardly have a say in it. If Peshawar does fall even for a few hours Pakistan will become fragmented for sure. Balochis will fight harder for independence. Sindh and Punjab have enough issues between themselves to ensure that they will not remain together once the other two seperate. Indpendent; they will be at constant war with each other over the water treaty. Joining the Indian federation would be an option; but I doubt that would come without bloodshed.

As far as the nuclear assets go; we need to start destroying them if it ever comes to the point where Peshawar is lost. The rest of the weaponry should be distributed amongst the provinces which would then get to decide whether to join an adjoining country or to stay independent.

TGB, you're wasting your breath with this one. In that entire paragraph, the only two words that would appeal to him are "muslim" and "destroying". Everything else would only be a faint buzz.

Is the situation really this bad? apart from dawn.com, I don't see any other news reporting something this dire. Peshawar falling should be a pretty big deal...

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Be very very very careful for what you wish for, The Green Bean, because you will soon have the USA volunteering to help make the situation even more screwed up than it is now.
And even harder to repair later.

All kinds of blame games can be played, to a certain extent the Taliban is partly a Pakistani creation, it worked to Pakistani interests in Afghanistan, but when Al-Quida used the Taliban to attack the USA, the world sided with the USA and the Taliban had to go. As we all know, the US invasion pushed many of the Taliban into Pakistan's out of sight out of mind tribal regions. And now the Taliban are trying to take over parts of Pakistan's tribal regions instead of playing nice peaceful rustics willing to honor the truces. There is a power vacuum and the Taliban will fill it if the Pakistani central government does not.

The modern world has come to the tribal areas of Pakistan, carrying with it none of modern technology's blessings, and instead it only comes with bigger and better ways to kill and exploit those stuck in technology more typical of a thousand years ago. And sad to say, the Taliban message fits the culture of the tribal areas better than the message of your own larger Pakistani central government that has embraced modern technology.

If you will let me presume to advise you, here is what I would recommend to Pakistan now that the crisis has come to bite Pakistan.

1. This is something Pakistan has to confront head on to maintain its sovereignty. Playing blame games will get you no where, but you have one big advantage, you have the failed Nato model to tell you how not to do it. Because this is a matter of winning hearts and minds, and your secret weapon is bring in the blessing of modern technology to the tribal areas of Pakistan.

2. Put aside the political divisions inside of Pakistan, this is the biggest threat you have faced in your history, no half way measures will do, get a plan and stick with it.

3. Step one is an absolute bill of rights for the Pakistani people, decide what parts of the Taliban message is acceptable and what things are not. I think you will find it the same for the rest of Pakistan that is economically developed. Initially the Pakistani military must concentrate on patrolling the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan and seal it tight. Stay a few miles back of the border to avoid any border confrontations with the cancers that comes from Afghanistan. Reach out to various tribal moderates who must either accept that bill of rights or be outlawed. The moderates, be they Taliban or not, are not your worries, the extremists are the ones to worry about. Let the moderates control the extremists.

4. Then the painful part, its going to take billions in economic development, roads schools, employment, the rule of law, and bringing in the blessing of a modern technology to improve the stands of living.
Some of the funding can come from the bribes of the Nato land route into nAfghanistan, except you don't need it in the form of military aid, you need it to fund economic development in the tribal areas. Other monies can be gotten from the international community, and Pakistan can pony up the rest. The roads can then also open up trade routes, with a little luck foreign companies will find it prudent to build pipelines to markets in Southern Pakistan and India, and then things become self financing.

5. Although seeming not the shortest route between A and B, in a more modern world, the Taliban will lose in the free market of ideas without a shot being fired.

Just my thoughts on the matter, but if Pakistan ducks and Nato tries to do the job for you, Pakistan will get decades of misery and anarchy in the tribal regions.
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
A part of the problem is factions in Pakistan Intelligence are sympathetic to Taliban issues so the military is not the single actor people might think.

This situation is a reason Obama was so ignorant to talk about sending troops in when resentment to Pakistan co-operation with US:


Pakistan: Obama remark 'irresponsible'

"Obama triggered anger in Pakistan, a key ally of the United States in its war on terror, when he said in a speech Wednesday that as president he would order U.S. military action against terrorists in Pakistan's tribal region bordering Afghanistan if intelligence warranted it...

"It's a very irresponsible statement, that's all I can say," Pakistan's Foreign Minister Khusheed Kasuri told AP Television News. "As the election campaign in America is heating up we would not like American candidates to fight their elections and contest elections at our expense."

" Deputy Information Minister Tariq Azim said no foreign forces would be allowed to enter Pakistan, and said Obama appeared to be "not aware of our contribution" to the fight on terrorism

http://www.usatoday.com/news/w...3-pakistan-obama_N.htm


Obama = inavde your best allies and talk with your enemies.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,023
8,056
136
Originally posted by: Lemon law
If you will let me presume to advise you, here is what I would recommend to Pakistan NOW THAT THE SHIT HAS HIT THE FAN.

1. This is something Pakistan has to confront head on to maintain its sovereignty. Playing blame games get you now where, but you have one big advantage, you have the failed Nato model to tell you how not to do it. Because this is a matter of winning hearts and minds, and your secret weapon is bring in the blessing of modern technology.

NATO?s failure is in refusing to kill its enemies in Pakistan. You cannot win a war while providing your opponent a safe and secure base of operation.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
The sheer ignorance of Butterbean's post above is breathtaking, and almost inspirational.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Pakistan crawled into bed with the Taliban.

Now they are finally opening their eyes to see what they slept with.

The government needs to decide what they want to do, how do to it, and get it done.

Even if they have to ask for outside assistance.

Yes, Pakistan had no idea what the Taliban were like all these years until now.

Where do you come up with this crap?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Lemon law
If you will let me presume to advise you, here is what I would recommend to Pakistan NOW THAT THE SHIT HAS HIT THE FAN.

1. This is something Pakistan has to confront head on to maintain its sovereignty. Playing blame games get you now where, but you have one big advantage, you have the failed Nato model to tell you how not to do it. Because this is a matter of winning hearts and minds, and your secret weapon is bring in the blessing of modern technology.

NATO?s failure is in refusing to kill its enemies in Pakistan. You cannot win a war while providing your opponent a safe and secure base of operation.

You sound like Osama bin Laden defending 9/11.

While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women.

It's interesting to note the history of the chain of events on things like this.

We're in Iraq because of a 'war on terror' triggered by 9/11. 9/11 was planned in response to our helping Israel invade Lebanon and kill civilians. We helped Israel for reasons including our 'alliance' of them as our proxy military force in the middle east for our own interests, and because we 'owed' them for Israels' then-secret role as a middleman in the illegal Reagan selling arms to Iran for illegaly funding the Nicaraguan Contra terrorists.

We were funding the contras out of our desire to dominate Central American economics for our own benefit. Israel was created out of a response to Hitler's genocide of Jews and Europe's and America's unwillingness to accept them. Hitler was able to rise to power by scapegoating the Jews because of the harsh terms forced on Germany in Versailles after WWI. We could go into the pointless causes of WWI, but...

Our relations with Iran when selling them missiles, the fact there were hostages to buy, were largely set by the rulers being Mullahs who could get power because of our having overthrown Iranian democracy in 1953 to maintain exploitatively low oil prices. The challenges we face between Sunni and Shiites in Iraq today are caused because Iraq was formed to have those conflicts, to make Iraq easier for England to colonize the local people by throwing them together, to secure cheap oil.

The radical, violent fundamentalist Muslim groups we face today have roots to being powerful now largely because the west caused the creation and helped them, in order to have these groups as opponents to the Arab nationalists who resisted the colonization by the west, for the west to secure cheap oil.

I think it's useful to note the ongoing causes and effects of these actions. No 'side' has clean hands; but throughout you can find the masses are often the victims of the policies.

The people of Iraq did not deserve to be killed by the hundreds of thousands in the current war, displaced by the millions; they did not deserve the tyranny of Saddam Hussein.

The people of Saudi Arabia do not deserve to live under the tyranny of the House of Saud, the natural wealth of their nation usurped.

The people of Iran do not deserve to live under the tyranny of Mullahs or Shah; they did not deserve to be invaded by Saddam in a war with a million casualties.

The people of Israel did not deserve to be so murdered and discrmiminated against and refused welcome by the west.

The history, the political chatter, concentrates on the corrupt regimes and their actions, but not much on the masses who are all but forgotten in the politics.

If there are 50 comments about Saudi Arabia, probably all 50 will be about the ruling Saudi family or the Wahabis they are allied with, and zero about the majority of Saudi people.

How far are our political talks going to do much if they are stuck in the situations like the House of Saud ruling that nation? Why aren't we talking about liberating the Saudi people, through means other than war? The reason is because it's in our 'interest' to have the Saudi rulers working with us where we keep them in power and our citizens send them large sums of money, while they send back smaller but still large sums where it's 'needed' in the US, to certain firms (need I mention who bailed our GWB or donated to 41's library?)
 

Vonkhan

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
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Well, this made me laugh After these years of pakistani state sponsored terrorism, the chickens have come home to roost

As you sow, so shall you reap - have fun
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Pakistan crawled into bed with the Taliban.

Now they are finally opening their eyes to see what they slept with.

The government needs to decide what they want to do, how do to it, and get it done.

Even if they have to ask for outside assistance.

Yes, Pakistan had no idea what the Taliban were like all these years until now.

Where do you come up with this crap?

I am parroting TGB on how wonderful the Taliban are.
They mean Pakistan no harm, it is AQ that is evil.
06/11/2008 09:43 AM
Originally posted by:The Green Bean
We are now at peace with the militants in Pakistan. There has been a peace treaty signed. It's shameful for your country that even an unorganized group of militants are more loyal to treaties than your country is to its "allies."

06/13/2008 04:35AM
Originally posted by:The Green Bean
Originally posted by: :Common Courtesy
Pakistan arrests AQ operatives, yet also allows them to operate freely along with the Taliban in their NW sectors. The current issue is an example. They knew that the Taliban were within a km of their location but were interested (if they were regulars) in confronting the US & Afgans rather than teaming up to remove the Taliban.

They provide intelligence to AQ and in all possibility provide logistics to some.

It demonstrates that Pakistan is playing both ends against the middle.

Exactly! AlQaeeda is our enemy; the taliban is not! Not anymore atleast. We signed a peace deal with the Pakistani taliban last month.



06/16/2008 08:24AM
Originally posted by:The Green Bean
We will capture or kill every Taliban we find. period.

Not if you find them in Pakistan. Not until every last Pakistani soldier has been killed, wounded or captured.


"The fight" simply means that the Taliban must be destroyed, one way or another. The choice of who makes that happen is entirely yours... but, the clock is ticking.

We will first make the choice if the taliban must be destroyed or not. We will take our own time for their decision. But with the current options on the table it's not worth fighting them so the likely answer is no.




 

deathstorm78

Member
Oct 1, 2007
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0
61
I seem to remember someone going off about America not being welcome in Pakistan and that we were finding ourselves closer to acts of war with our behaviour.

Now some mess is stirring up and people want to know where our intervention is?
 

Vonkhan

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
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0
71
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Pakistan will become fragmented for sure. Balochis will fight harder for independence. Sindh and Punjab have enough issues between themselves to ensure that they will not remain together once the other two seperate. Indpendent; they will be at constant war with each other over the water treaty. Joining the Indian federation would be an option; but I doubt that would come without bloodshed.

What makes you think that India would want any part of that craphole?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
What this boils down to, IMHO, is simply an attempt to fight an ideology and a label. And the natural presupposition is that there is a given people, be they Afghani, Pakistani, Vietnamese, or whomever, and these people must be rescued from an evil oppressing ideology and that its somehow both necessary and possible to aggressively cut those cancers out to effect a cure. Because we are the all knowing great white hopes and they are wallowing in dark ignorance.

And then we seem to ignore three things.

1. Almost every time we try that stunt, it goes over like a lead balloon. Because our cure becomes worse than their disease.

2. We ignore the fact that our prior behavior is directly responsible for increasing the local appeal of the very ideology we are trying to exterminate. And unlike a human being,
an idea cannot be killed. So net effect is often is, the more "bad guys" we kill, the more of the people we are trying to save will embrace their ideas.

3. A military occupation is always a go big or stay at home proposition. If its not done big and does not have the net effect of reducing chaos, it instead creates total anarchy,
then everything is lost, and the local thugs take over.

It seems to me as a prime postulate given the Taliban is a local home grown movement, that we are fighting is the Taliban's prime assumption.

And best put, the Taliban asserts that Western and modern influences are the root of all evil. And the answer is therefore to throw those rascals out, and go with the time honored principles of Sharia law.

So we suck right in and bring in the Western influences while also bringing in corruption, unprecedented violence, anarchy, empowering local thugs, and turn their entire homeland into a shooting gallery where any level of collateral damage is perfectly acceptable to us. And to sweeten the deal even more, we spend next to nothing to develop
any kinds of economic development

And as we can see from six years in Afghanistan, by gum, we are doing a heck of a job proving the Taliban is a 100% right. And proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Western influences are the root of all evil.

And WE WONDER WHY WE FAIL?
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
shocker.

You should have stopped them seven years ago when they ran like rats into the region... instead, you courted them and allowed them to fester.

Welcome to our world.

Originally posted by: Lemon law
So we suck right in and bring in the Western influences while also bringing in corruption, unprecedented violence, anarchy, empowering local thugs, and turn their entire homeland into a shooting gallery where any level of collateral damage is perfectly acceptable to us.
If you actually believe that "the evil West" introduced any of those issues to the region, then you're even dumber than I ever imagined... and that's pretty fucking dumb.

seriously, wow.
 
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