Peshawar could Fall

[Lemon law]

I rest my case, a military is a military the world over. And our military is #1 in not knowing its limits.

And palehorse pipes up with our ROE was always too restrictive and tvarad pops up with---The Pakistani Govt. should drive these guys to the border and have the Nato/Afghan forces use them for target practice. That's the best solution for the Afghanistan, the West and Pakistan.

Well, the above always look good on paper. The problem is it almost always flops in practice. It didn't work in Vietnam with 500,000 troops, how do you expect it to work with 62,000 troops? And even if it starts half way temporarily working, you missed the comment about the Talistans you will have to start chasing your own tails into.

As a chess player, I always assume my opponent has both intelligence and a desire to beat me, you total idiots don't realize you are fighting a Taliban that is at least as smart as you are and one hell of a lot more pragmatic. They know their limitation and anyone who does not know their limitations are easy to beat.

 

[tvarad]

Lemon Law,
Stop being an idiot. The West will not leave Afghanistan and the badlands of Pakistan to their own devices, since the former's very survival is being threatened from there. Period. Your analysis-to-death views keep missing this simple point.

And the Viet-Cong didn't bring down a couple of buildings on the U.S. mainland so stop comparing it to Vietnam.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: tvarad
Lemon Law,
Stop being an idiot. The West will not leave Afghanistan and the badlands of Pakistan to their own devices, since the former's very survival is being threatened from there. Period. Your analysis-to-death views keep missing this simple point.

And the Viet-Cong didn't bring down a couple of buildings on the U.S. mainland so stop comparing it to Vietnam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your stinking thinking will only last so long until Al-Quida and not the Taliban starts threatening the West from every gin joint location on the planet.

And by then enough successful attacks will occur and somebody will have the brains to wake up and realize our all offense and no defense strategy only creates more terrorists.

Which our own NIE already admits, but I will not be looking for any people with brains from your way of thinking. Even though our own NIE is already that clear lesson that you are wrong.

But we will sooner or later learn the answer is defense first and then some clearly targeted limited offense second.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
And now the new government is letting them do whatever the hell they want. I'm shocked and disgusted!

But how can this be real? A well trained modern army can not defend one of its own cities? Or are they just unwilling?


TGB

Your country is filled with barbarian zealots. You yourself have espoused Sharia. Why are you shocked?

Obviously you do not understand the fact that Pakistan is a country of 160 million+ people. That's about half of the total American population. America has its conservative belt too does it not? Does it not have its barbarian zealots too that condone torture and some that propose nuking the entire M.E. There is a quite a big cultural difference between the our provinces as well. It's your propaganda and biased media that portrays our whole country as if it's living 1000 years ago! But if you want to trust your brainwashing media more than someone with first-hand experience then I guess you have the "freedom" to do it.

I don't need to stick my head in a toilet to know it's full of shit and puke.

 

[Lemon law]

The alchemize delusion is and remains---I don't need to stick my head in a toilet to know it's full of shit and puke.

Yet if you miss the point The Green Bean made, its alcmemize himself who already has his head deeply stuck down a toilet chock full of GWB&co. shit and puke. And then has the unmitigated gall to say, how dare you critique us Pakistan, please come to us and join me in my delusional toilet of mega failure.

The mystery here is what first hand experience alchemize has and how its possible to ignore the fact that Pakistan does a far better job of controlling its right wing nuts than the USA does.

What part of six plus years of US failure do you endorse? Or do you think your own shit smell like roses?

 

[Stoneburner]

According to some indian news i saw on television, peshawar is all but taken over.

 

[DealMonkey]

I've been bitching about Pakistan's FATA for years ... either Pakistan needs to get control over that region or they need to ask for our help to do so. We've replaced one lawless area (Afghanistan) for another (the FATA). There should be no safe haven for the Taliban or any of their terrorist asshole buddies like AQ.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Another example of how difficult it is to have a largely muslim society maintain a secular government and not become a wacko muslim state. The moderates (read: sane) are not as zealous about guarding a secular government as the wacko religious are about converting it to an islamic government. Turkey is another country facing the same problem. The military is trying it's best to maintain a secular system of government, but with the majority of the population supporting wacko muslim parties, it's an effort doomed to fail. That's one of the reasons Turkey can never be allowed to enter the EU.

The moderates don't really support them per se but fear them. It doesn't take a lot of people willing to die or kill you to change society since most people just want to live in peace and not have their whole family brutally slaughtered for speaking out against the militants. Same with Nazi and Communist take overs where a small militant minority of sociopaths managed to dictate societal direction. The Muslim concept of takfir gives the militants a powerful built in ally. e.g How can Takfir be objected to when it is from al-Islam which even moderate Muslims follow.

The EU? Eurabia is a lost cause as it will be Muslim in 50 years though demographic conquest.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: tvarad
Lemon Law,
Stop being an idiot. The West will not leave Afghanistan and the badlands of Pakistan to their own devices, since the former's very survival is being threatened from there. Period. Your analysis-to-death views keep missing this simple point.

And the Viet-Cong didn't bring down a couple of buildings on the U.S. mainland so stop comparing it to Vietnam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your stinking thinking will only last so long until Al-Quida and not the Taliban starts threatening the West from every gin joint location on the planet.

And by then enough successful attacks will occur and somebody will have the brains to wake up and realize our all offense and no defense strategy only creates more terrorists.

Which our own NIE already admits, but I will not be looking for any people with brains from your way of thinking. Even though our own NIE is already that clear lesson that you are wrong.

But we will sooner or later learn the answer is defense first and then some clearly targeted limited offense second.

I bet we can kill them faster than they are created currently.

Dream on even blue state grannys will be calling for blood. Collective punishment will become the rule rather than a war crime. We haven't forgotten how to kill en masse and certainly will if attacked "from every gin joint location on the planet." Those on the right look forward to your scenario.

Even AQ is not as stupid as you and crawled back into their hole after 911 knowing not to awaken our wrath. Or do you think those yellow alerts are saving us?

 

[Lemon law]

Zebo, do you know how to read? Our own NIE proves you are wrong! How can you believe we can kill them faster than they are created when that definitively is not the conclusion of our own NIE?

Now if you spend two god damned seconds thinking, why should Al-Quida waste anytime attacking again, when they have us doing exactly what we want, namely bankrupting ourselves, spending money like water while being tied up in two quagmires, and being their best recruiting agents to boot? When Al-Quida has a sweetheart deal like that, it don't get better than that.

As for Al-Quida crawling back into a hole, the evidence does not support that at all. In terms of tactics, they seem to be a clueless bunch of idiots in their own right. They done wore out their welcome with their Sunni hosts in Iraq, they side with Israel and Fatah in Lebanon and with the Palestinians, and Al-Quida is not exactly the sharpest knives in the terrorist drawer either.

But at least you are right that the yellow alerts have done fooliani no good, and GWB is just like a rock, only dumber.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The alchemize delusion is and remains---I don't need to stick my head in a toilet to know it's full of shit and puke.

Yet if you miss the point The Green Bean made, its alcmemize himself who already has his head deeply stuck down a toilet chock full of GWB&co. shit and puke. And then has the unmitigated gall to say, how dare you critique us Pakistan, please come to us and join me in my delusional toilet of mega failure.

The mystery here is what first hand experience alchemize has and how its possible to ignore the fact that Pakistan does a far better job of controlling its right wing nuts than the USA does.

What part of six plus years of US failure do you endorse? Or do you think your own shit smell like roses?

I see you are no stranger to shit and puke, as your verbal diarrhea pours forth.

What exactly does GWB&co. have to do with my post and Pakistan being a shitpile? It was that way FAR before GWB came into office. Talk about obsessive and delusional...

As far as "controlling right wing nuts" - how would you classify radical islam - left wing? :roll:

What first hand experience do YOU have with Pakistan? If none, then I suppose we could share a nice cup of STFU.

 

[Zebo]

I don't subscribe to the NIE's findings. Life is getting better in Iraq -less Iraqis are dying - less US soldiers are dying - AQ is slowly being defeated both on the ground and intellectually with many influential Imams speaking out against violence and terror. While I don't think it was 'worth' it in any sense and I think we did create way more militants initially, and probably more than before OIF started, the report is three years behind. That's government for you.

As far as the quagmires thats by Bush's design not AQ. You seriously think we just couldn't win either war? i'm not talking about a kill em' all senario either - but shifting missions, falling out with allies (former Bath and NA freinds), ever switching alliances etc all due to the money being made by the Eric Princes of the world. It's a Grover Norquist starve the beast dream come true. They thought they'd have to give their money to grannies and cripples to bankrupt gov't - but instead they give it and our money back to themselves and bankrupt the gov't. They hit the Trifecta when combined with oil prices , high, coincidently, due to the wars they started!

Zebo, do you know how to read?

Not really, ask Vic.

 

[Lemon law]

To Zebo,

You certainly will not discredit the NIE by just citing Iraq. The NIE is more of a global estimate and Iraq is an especially bad way to look at it.

Because Iraq started out 0% AQ and at no point was AQ more than 15% of the total Iraqi insurgencies. And now by AQ shortsighted stupidity, AQ is far
less than 15% because they wore out their welcome with their Sunni hosts. But you Zebo, seem to have swallowed the GWB&co lie, hook line and sinker,
by equating Al-Quida with the Iraqi insurgencies. When the real Iraqi insurgencies are thousands of various local strongman types who organized militias
right after Saddam fell. Its simply a variant of Montazuma's revenge except in Iraq it might be better called Shinseki's revenge, we needed 500,000 troops
to prevent this types of anarchy in an occupation, it was already well known military doctrine, and Rummy thought he knew better. Well, Rummy may have fired
Shinseki, but Rummy got his ass fired because the Iraqi insurgencies rapidly took over. At best AQ crashed the party later and now its the other Iraqi insurgencies
that are giving AQ the old heave ho.

Then you Zebo make the other mistake in your post, you equate the strength of the Iraqi insurgencies with the violence levels. When in fact, its a poor measure. And truth be told, the non AQ Iraqi insurgencies are better armed and better organized than ever. If you think of Iraq as a bunch of Mafia fiefdoms prospering by looting their share of
the US largess and Iraqi oil wealth, you would finally have things about right. Only in the last three months or so, has Maliki finally made an effort to confront the powers of the Iraqi insurgencies with a central government, before that the Iraqi central government might as well have been located on the moon for all the influence it had in Iraq.
As it is, so far Maliki has been successful in a divide and conquer, but one over reach by Makiki and it will all collapse. As it is, much of the Iraqi government serves the insurgencies, who will not allow the political progress that will stop their good times for the Iraqi insurgencies from rolling on forever.

Sadly in Afghanistan, its far worse, the Taliban was the only force that tried to unify anything, and Karzai is content to be the de facto mayor of Kabul. The Taliban has free run of all of Afghanistan, but since there is no US largess to divy up, local war lord thugs and now even the Taliban are getting their financing from the opium trade. And unlike Iraq, the violence levels are up not down, and the Afghani occupation is in worse shape than it was when it started over six years ago.

Then Zebo asks--------You seriously think we just couldn't win either war? Get a damn clue, we won both wars in the first 2 weeks. After the war, comes the other part, winning the peace which is only part of the job of a military in a military occupation. And the answer there is, not even close in Iraq, and we are clearly losing in Afghanistan.
The missing elements must come in the form of diplomacy, economic aid, and in winning the hearts and minds of the occupied people. And instead, we fail to make things better, we don't get at the root causes that fuel the insurgencies, and worse yet, we are now tending to destabilize surrounding countries.

At least you have the wit to equate rising oil prices with instability and realize GWB&co are idiots, but you still fail to see this does not aid terrorists world wide. You reject the NIE which is the honest effort of our best intelligence experts, just on your gut feelings. And then somewhat show zero insight into what motivates those opposed to the USA
and its interests.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
...
Sadly in Afghanistan, its far worse, the Taliban was the only force that tried to unify anything, and Karzai is content to be the de facto mayor of Kabul. The Taliban has free run of all of Afghanistan, but since there is no US largess to divy up, local war lord thugs and now even the Taliban are getting their financing from the opium trade. And unlike Iraq, the violence levels are up not down, and the Afghani occupation is in worse shape than it was when it started over six years ago..

...

By who's estimates?

The Taliban when attempting to control an area, get their buts kicked.

They have to run back to Pakistan when confronted by NATO forces.

They are like roaches, but are getting squashed and areas are being kept bug free.

 

[Lemon law]

Common Courtesy when confronted by the assertion that the Afghani occupation is now in worse shape than it was six years ago come back with.---------------

"By who's estimates? ( Well certainly by my estimates, but then again, we could ask what means do you use to gage success or failure? Within a few months of starting the Afghani occupation, the Nato alliance plus the existing Northern Alliance, had succeeded in pushing nearly all Taliban and Al-Quida forces into Pakistan. Since then, they have been coming back in greater numbers and creating greater mischief each and every year since. And for the first time in history, there are more US troops deaths in Afghanistan than in Iraq. This week's butcher bill is 20 US troops killed. And now for two weeks running, overall US troop deaths are over pre surge levels. That is partly how I measure things. )

The Taliban when attempting to control an area, get their buts kicked.
( Making a control stand in any one given area is never the object of an insurgency. Its their objective to extend their amount of overall control, and as the stronger military occupations weakens itself in other areas, the insurgency simple moves to where the occupation forces
are weak. But 2008 has been especially unprecedented as the Taliban is openly trying to extend its local control from mere small village units to actual major cities. Forcing Nato and the Afghani army to move troops from elsewhere to expel them, thus weakening the Occupation forces everywhere else. )

They have to run back to Pakistan when confronted by NATO forces.
( Now somewhat in doubt, where they now run is less well known. They now have the basic free run of Afghanistan, the supplies they can smuggle in from Pakistan is not that great, and if they can shelter with Afghani family units, they are indistinguishable from the overall Afghani local populace from which they come. Unlike occupation troops, their life need not be consumed by being a fighter 24/7/365 )

They are like roaches, but are getting squashed and areas are being kept bug free."
( Exactly the point, the bug free areas are being reduced year after years after year. Kabul has always been fairly safe in a 20 mile radius around Kabul, but 2008 has seen a
major Karzai assassination plot and a major prison break, which means even Kabul is starting to crack. )

We all know what you were trying to assert, Common Courtesy, but the evidence simply does not support your assertions.