Ok, I am about ready to agree with this. The plane can not take off and stand still.
No one is claiming it can (other than Row1and, who is completely wrong).
It takes off because it is still moves forward.
Ok, I am about ready to agree with this. The plane can not take off and stand still.
Originally posted by: Row1and
Originally posted by: Armitage
Originally posted by: edro
Originally posted by: Armitage
Originally posted by: Row1and
yes it can cause the speed of the plane is increasing. As soon as the plane gets to it's require Knots, it will take off. so yes it can take off, but it will be on the same spot. That would actually be cool to see i think,
No - the plane has to be moving relative to the earth/air to take off. And it will be.
You are missing the whole point of the question...
I don't think so - Row1and says it will take off, but will stay in the same spot. A convential plane can't do that. The whole wind over the wings everybody keeps on about.
It will take off, but not in the manner Row1and describes.
no, the plane will take off but it will look like it's taking off from a stand still position from someone looking at it far away. That's what I meant by take off but will be in the same spot.
Originally posted by: Chryso
Ok, am I right in thinking that the conveyor and the wheels of the plane will be constantly increasing to an infinite speed as the plane begins to move forward until it is no longer on the conveyor or it leaves the ground?
Originally posted by: juiio
Skateboard picture
Here's another one...
What happens when the fan is plugged in? Does the skateboard move?
(Pretend that the cord doesn't impede movement at all)
Originally posted by: edro
You are on crack. You think what makes an airplane fly is the engine alone? You MUST have airflow across a wing to create lift... it is that simple.Originally posted by: DaiShan
You're right. I may have said differently earlier (dunno if I posted) but yeah, you're right.Originally posted by: notfred
This thread's already about 3 million posts long, but I have to give my input. The plane WILL take off. The engines of an airplane move it relative to the air around it, not relative to the ground, like many people have said before.
Let's make an analogy. Pretend the plane is propelled forward by a giant winch. There's a rope attached to the front of the plane, and that rope is attached to a winch at the far end of the conveyor. Now, when the winch starts winding in and pulling the plane forward, do you think it matters how fast the conveyer under the plane moves? It doesn't the winch is going to keep pulling in rope at the same rate, and move the plane forward. The only thing that the conveyer will change is the rotation speed of the wheels, but the plane will keep moving forward at a constant rate because it's being pulled by a rope.
The engine on an airplane is like the rope, except the rope and the winch is air instead the engine pulls the plane through the air, independent of the movement of the ground.
Exactly.Originally posted by: Chryso
Thrust does not equal lift. You need airflow over the wings for lift.Originally posted by: Armitage
One more time ...
All the naysayers - please tell me what force opposes the thrust of the engines to keep the plane stationary?
I could put a jet engine on a car but that won't make it fly.
If the plane DOES move forward in relation to the stationary Earth... it completely defeats the purpose of the question. The whole point is that the plane is not moving in relation to the Earth.Originally posted by: Armitage
No kidding? Hang with me here!Originally posted by: Chryso
Thrust does not equal lift. You need airflow over the wings for lift.Originally posted by: Armitage
One more time ...
All the naysayers - please tell me what force opposes the thrust of the engines to keep the plane stationary?
So - if we have thrust...
And no force opposes that thrust...
The plane moves.
If the plane moves...
There is airflow over the wings.
If there is airflow over the wings..
There is LIFT!
But it WOULD make if move forward, relative to the earth, on the conveyer! Which a conventional car could not do given the scenario in the OP.I could put a jet engine on a car but that won't make it fly.
If you have a conveyor moving at 10mph and an engine propelling the plane @ 200mph, of course it will take off.
Read the question... it says that the conveyor MATCHES the thrust exactly, thus, no movement and no airflow over the wing.
This is the wrong analogy. the fan is sitting directly on the skateboard, so there is a large amount of friction present. An airplane does not sit directly on the runway (or conveyor). It's on WHEELS. Try putting the fan on wheels and then put that assembly on the skateboard. Either the fan will push itself off the back of the skateboard, or if the fan is fixed in position (as the conveyor belt would be) then it would push the skateboard out from under it.
The wheels is what makes the difference here because they remove 99% of the friction that would otherwise keep the plane form moving.
Originally posted by: letdown427
but that isn't very interesting as we all know that that wouldn't work.
Originally posted by: juiio
Originally posted by: letdown427
but that isn't very interesting as we all know that that wouldn't work.
Bzzzt! Try again.
Originally posted by: Chryso
I saw Bugs Bunny do it to get away from Elmer Fudd.
Originally posted by: letdown427
Originally posted by: juiio
Originally posted by: letdown427
but that isn't very interesting as we all know that that wouldn't work.
Bzzzt! Try again.
Either you're going to tell me that the white board falls over or blows away, or that that somehow works, and the skateboard moves.
The only way I can see that moving is the skateboard would move backwards(to the fan end) becaus the white board wouldn't capture all of the air?
Otherwise it would seem on first impressions that surely it can't be propelled forwards (towards the white sheet) as it would seem that the fan blowing air forwards would push the skateboard backwards, and this would be counteracted by the air pushing the white panel, thus pushing the skateboard forwards, and cancelling it all out.
I presume you have seen this in a lecture or something and it in fact works contrary to first impressions?
Meh, my firs tthought would be either it stays still in theoretical physics world, but RL it moves slightly backwards (fan end) as the white sheet doesn't feel the force of all the air.
Please enlighten me!
And yes, whilst you can try and thread jack (the 0.999...=1 jacking has been beaten) ultimately, people will read the topic and bluntly propse their it cant take off opinion without reading the thread, and it will eventually be steered back on course
Originally posted by: edro
If the plane DOES move forward in relation to the stationary Earth... it completely defeats the purpose of the question. The whole point is that the plane is not moving in relation to the Earth.
Originally posted by: letdown427
The only way I can see that moving is the skateboard would move backwards(to the fan end) becaus the white board wouldn't capture all of the air?
Originally posted by: SophalotJack
So, you have to be kidding right?
There is a massive difference between moving a vehicle forward on a reverse-moving plane compared to that same vehicle taking off.
A jet powered car would do the same thing.... but we know for sure that it wouldn't take off because it's not an airplane.
Don't let the "wings" fool you all... you need "lift." Which can only be attained if wind is hitting the wings. Seeing as though the only wind generated is behind the airplane (from the jet engines), there is no lift.
The thing that the people (who think this airplane might take off) are severely not understanding is that just because a plane moves forward (countering the reverse covneyer belt) doesn't mean that the airplane's wings are getting any lift. The air in front of the plane is still perfectly still (except the air immediately around the jet intakes, and that air doesn't get to the wings at the intake speeds).
Maybe if there was a hurricane force wind blowing toward the airplane.... then it might take off.
Man, how to people not get this?
I suppose parachutes can open up on the ground based on the way most people think.
Originally posted by: Rayden
I repeat, can someone use physics to prove that the plane doesn't move? I have seen many people say it doesn't move, but no one uses physics in their reasoning.