Physics question...

White Widow

Senior member
Jan 27, 2000
773
0
71
When cosmologists and astronomers speak of the expansion of the universe they do not usually say what is expanding. Do they mean that the distance between clusters of galaxies is increasing, or possibly that the clusters themselves are increasing in size? Or could it be that the expansion is occurring on smaller scales too? Possibly stars, planets or even atoms
take part in the expansion...? If it is simply space itself that expands, would this not affect all the objects IN space as well?

If I inflate a balloon slightly and draw 2 dots with my sharpie and then continue to inflate the balloon, the distance between the dots increases. This setup has been used to demonstrate the increasing distances between galaxy clusters as space expands. Except that in the balloon experiment, the dots are getting bigger, too. How is this to be reconciled?

How can space be expanding without expanding the things that exist in space? And yet, even if normal matter (all the way down to sub-atomic particles) were expanding, would this not wreak total havok?

I would very much appreciate and explanation from someone with a physics background.

Cheers,
Aaron
 

SuperjetMatt

Senior member
Nov 16, 2007
406
0
0
Space itself is said to be expanding.
The relative distance between objects stays the same, because all ways to measure said distance expand as well.

At least that's how I understand it.

 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
43
91
One word Forces. Space is expanding, everywhere in each and ever square mm. But all that you see, feel and experience is made up of particles of matter and energy. These interact via the 4 known forces of physics (Gravity, Strong Nuclear, Weak Nuclear, Electromagnetic). These forces are far more powerful on the scales that we are familiar with than the expansion of space. Therefore things stay together. Over VAST distances though one starts to notice the effect of the expansion of space and only HUGE conglomerates of matter like super clusters of galaxies manage to hold together and even they are being separated from one another as space expands.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
452
126
Gravity has an effect to a certain distance depending on mass, but when things aren't close enough to be pulled together they'll expand. What I'm saying is, things like our galaxy should (in theory) stay relatively the same since things are being pulled together in a certain way. But the space between galaxies is constantly expanding since the galaxies aren't close enough to be pulled by each other.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: SuperjetMatt
Space itself is said to be expanding.
The relative distance between objects stays the same, because all ways to measure said distance expand as well.

At least that's how I understand it.

Although it seems that you're suggesting that as a 1 meter wide object expands, so does a meter stick to measure it with, distance isn't only measured with physical objects. Distance can be measured using the speed of light. And, the speed of light is presumed to be a constant.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
452
126
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: SuperjetMatt
Space itself is said to be expanding.
The relative distance between objects stays the same, because all ways to measure said distance expand as well.

At least that's how I understand it.

Although it seems that you're suggesting that as a 1 meter wide object expands, so does a meter stick to measure it with, distance isn't only measured with physical objects. Distance can be measured using the speed of light. And, the speed of light is presumed to be a constant.

True, but when that 'constant' is measured using units that may be expanding (like meters/second) is it still a constant?
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: shinerburke
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
Because there's ah heck all down here on Earth
 

darkxshade

Lifer
Mar 31, 2001
13,749
6
81
Maybe you shouldn't have drawn dots on the balloon with a sharpie but instead sprinkled glitter on it and then inflate the balloon more?
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: gorcorps
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: SuperjetMatt
Space itself is said to be expanding.
The relative distance between objects stays the same, because all ways to measure said distance expand as well.

At least that's how I understand it.

Although it seems that you're suggesting that as a 1 meter wide object expands, so does a meter stick to measure it with, distance isn't only measured with physical objects. Distance can be measured using the speed of light. And, the speed of light is presumed to be a constant.

True, but when that 'constant' is measured using units that may be expanding (like meters/second) is it still a constant?

But our dimension of one meter would never expand if the speed of light is a constant. Technically, you can no longer measure the speed of light. All you're really doing is seeing how well calibrated your equipment is. The speed of light (in a vacuum) is defined as exactly 299,792,458 meters per second. The meter is the distance light travels through a vacuum in 1/299792458th of a second. So, unless time is changing too, our measurement of a meter will always be the same, regardless of any expansion.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Originally posted by: gorcorps
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: SuperjetMatt
Space itself is said to be expanding.
The relative distance between objects stays the same, because all ways to measure said distance expand as well.

At least that's how I understand it.

Although it seems that you're suggesting that as a 1 meter wide object expands, so does a meter stick to measure it with, distance isn't only measured with physical objects. Distance can be measured using the speed of light. And, the speed of light is presumed to be a constant.

True, but when that 'constant' is measured using units that may be expanding (like meters/second) is it still a constant?

The meter is a constant, it is defined as the distance over which light travels in 1/c seconds. Most units are now defined to be absolute constants.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
452
126
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: gorcorps
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: SuperjetMatt
Space itself is said to be expanding.
The relative distance between objects stays the same, because all ways to measure said distance expand as well.

At least that's how I understand it.

Although it seems that you're suggesting that as a 1 meter wide object expands, so does a meter stick to measure it with, distance isn't only measured with physical objects. Distance can be measured using the speed of light. And, the speed of light is presumed to be a constant.

True, but when that 'constant' is measured using units that may be expanding (like meters/second) is it still a constant?

But our dimension of one meter would never expand if the speed of light is a constant. Technically, you can no longer measure the speed of light. All you're really doing is seeing how well calibrated your equipment is. The speed of light (in a vacuum) is defined as exactly 299,792,458 meters per second. The meter is the distance light travels through a vacuum in 1/299792458th of a second. So, unless time is changing too, our measurement of a meter will always be the same, regardless of any expansion.

:thumbsup: Good info. Didn't realize the meter was based off of the speed of light.

Dr. Pizza for elite... erm, for mod... oh dammit, thanks either way.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Lot of good explanations here, but as far as local effects go, that is a predicted effect of what is called the "big rip", where the expansion of the universe exponentially accellerates, first ripping apart galactic superclusters, to galaxies, to star systems, to stars, to planets, to even atoms... Whether this will happen opposed to the big crunch or eventual expansion until "heat death" of the universe is anyone's guess..
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: White Widow
When cosmologists and astronomers speak of the expansion of the universe they do not usually say what is expanding. Do they mean that the distance between clusters of galaxies is increasing, or possibly that the clusters themselves are increasing in size? Or could it be that the expansion is occurring on smaller scales too? Possibly stars, planets or even atoms
take part in the expansion...? If it is simply space itself that expands, would this not affect all the objects IN space as well?

If I inflate a balloon slightly and draw 2 dots with my sharpie and then continue to inflate the balloon, the distance between the dots increases. This setup has been used to demonstrate the increasing distances between galaxy clusters as space expands. Except that in the balloon experiment, the dots are getting bigger, too. How is this to be reconciled?

How can space be expanding without expanding the things that exist in space? And yet, even if normal matter (all the way down to sub-atomic particles) were expanding, would this not wreak total havok?

I would very much appreciate and explanation from someone with a physics background.

Cheers,
Aaron

No.

I don't feel like explaining it, just trust me on this one.
 

nineball9

Senior member
Aug 10, 2003
789
0
76
OP - regarding expansion of the universe, try reading about Hubble's Law and the Hubble constant. In short, the redshift of light (caused by space expanding) from distant galaxies is proportional to their distance. From our point of view on the Earth, distant galaxies appear to be moving away faster than nearer galaxies. (This may seem somewhat of an Earth-centric definition but it's our only vantage point. On a large scale, the universe appears to be pretty much isotropic, i.e. uniform in all directions, so if you were standing on a planet in some far away galaxy, you'd still see the same expansion.)

The balloon example is a good one if, as one poster noted, you use "sprinkles" instead of Sharpie dots. Another analogy is raisin bread. Start with a generally homogeneous lump of dough (analogous to space) and raisins (analogous to galaxies), cook it and it expands to a homogeneous loaf of raisin bread (analogous to an expanding universe). The dough expands and not the raisins (they may, but here the analogy fails). Moreover, the raisins (and dough) at the outer parts of the loaf expanded more rapidly than the raisins in the inner parts.

Space between galaxies is expanding, not the galaxies themselves (unless caused by other means like galaxy collisions.) Galaxies - collections of billions of stars - are gravitationally constrained, that is, gravity holds them together. Clusters of galaxies - collections of tens to thousands of individual galaxies - are assumed to be assumed to be gravitationally constrained too. Our own Local Group of 40+ galaxies, while not generally considered to be a galaxy cluster though there is no absolute line between a "group" and a "cluster", is contracting. Light from galaxies in the Local Group, of which the Milky Way and Andromeda are the biggies, is blue shifted from our perspective.

So "when cosmologists and astronomers speak of the expansion of the universe", they are generally referring to space between galaxies, and not galaxy clusters or the individual stars, planets, atoms etc which make up a galaxy. In gravitationally constrained systems, the strength of gravity far exceeds any expansion (if any) of space within the system. This is fortunate for life on earth. Our solar system is gravitationally constrained which is why the earth, Mars, Jupiter etc aren't all receding from the sun. Moreover, like other galaxies, our own is held together by gravity; the solar system is not leaving the Milky Way.

In the 20th century, cosmologists and astronomers discovered that universe threw us a couple of curve balls, namely dark matter and dark energy but no one knows what they really are!

Galaxies rotate, and the angular velocity of outer stars should be enough to cause them to fly away from the galaxy, but they don't. Some unknown source of gravity is holding them together. Hence the term dark matter - we can't see it anywhere in the EM spectrum but we can observe its effects. (There are other theories too.)

The standard cosmological model of the universe has the universe expanding ever since the Big Bang. Most models include some form of extreme expansion (called inflation) right after the Big Bang, but that lasted only 10^-35 seconds or so. Studies of type Ia supernova in distant galaxies in 1998 revealed a big surprise; not only is the universe expanding, but about 5 billion years ago, the expansion began to accelerate. Other studies have confirmed this observation (though, like dark matter, there are other theories.)

Finally, a meter stick can indeed contract (besides thermal contraction/expansion.) It's the Lorentz contraction which Einstein incorporated in his Special Theory of Relativity. However, the definition of a meter remains constant as does the speed of light (in vacuo.) Fortunately, we don't have to redefine the length of a meter every time we measure the speed of light travelling from one medium to another.
 

Arcadio

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2007
5,637
24
81
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
I expected this to be a 'arcadio troll job

Only you would think this thread could be considered a "troll job".
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
0
71
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: gorcorps
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: SuperjetMatt
Space itself is said to be expanding.
The relative distance between objects stays the same, because all ways to measure said distance expand as well.

At least that's how I understand it.

Although it seems that you're suggesting that as a 1 meter wide object expands, so does a meter stick to measure it with, distance isn't only measured with physical objects. Distance can be measured using the speed of light. And, the speed of light is presumed to be a constant.

True, but when that 'constant' is measured using units that may be expanding (like meters/second) is it still a constant?

But our dimension of one meter would never expand if the speed of light is a constant. Technically, you can no longer measure the speed of light. All you're really doing is seeing how well calibrated your equipment is. The speed of light (in a vacuum) is defined as exactly 299,792,458 meters per second. The meter is the distance light travels through a vacuum in 1/299792458th of a second. So, unless time is changing too, our measurement of a meter will always be the same, regardless of any expansion.

To me, it would seem that light would be able to travel a further distance in a second as the universe is expanding, assuming again that the balloon analogy is correct. My reasoning here is also assuming that there is a finite amount of matter in space (I am no physicist though).

It's like a frog who can jump from lilypad to lilypad, and every jump takes a constant amount of time, and the frog can jump as far as it possibly wants. Thus its overall speed is determined by how far apart the lilypads are. To translate that to the issue at hand, the frog would be light, and the lilypad would be the smallest possible piece of matter.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,912
2,144
126
Originally posted by: Analog
Originally posted by: Fritzo
I blame universe expansion on my waistline.

What do you blame shrinkage on then?

Microscopic black holes. They cause the atoms in my nether regions to compact to become incredibly compact and dense.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Originally posted by: Analog
Originally posted by: Fritzo
I blame universe expansion on my waistline.

What do you blame shrinkage on then?

The inevitable heat death of the Universe. Seriously though, it used to be a lot warmer around here, it's just gotten a lot colder.
 
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