Physx is just a gimmick.

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

We had destructible environments in Half Life 2, sparks in Doom 3 , steam/fog in a million games, without the need for PhysX

You are absolutely right, we had environments that fell apart in nicely scripted ways and fog we clipped through. The difference with a physics simulation is how things respond to interaction, not just that some things can respond to physical interaction(and in the case of fog, it doesn't even respond without a physics simulation running).

...Right. And my question was...why couldn't they have just left the nicely scripted ways environments blew apart and keep the fog we could clip through when PhysX is not enabled? But then make them realtime when PhysX *is* enabled?

That's what makes it an nV showcase.

Wouldn't that take quite a bit more programming time? I'm not a programmer, so I really don't know what would be involved in having essentially two games in one. One with PhysX for dynamic, random environmental reactions. And one with static, scripted action.

 

[SirPauly]

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

We had destructible environments in Half Life 2, sparks in Doom 3 , steam/fog in a million games, without the need for PhysX

You are absolutely right, we had environments that fell apart in nicely scripted ways and fog we clipped through. The difference with a physics simulation is how things respond to interaction, not just that some things can respond to physical interaction(and in the case of fog, it doesn't even respond without a physics simulation running).

...Right. And my question was...why couldn't they have just left the nicely scripted ways environments blew apart and keep the fog we could clip through when PhysX is not enabled? But then make them realtime when PhysX *is* enabled?

That's what makes it an nV showcase.

I would say it is indeed a nV showcase at times and see nothing wrong with that. When I do see some 10.1 titles -- think it is great to see AMD/ATI get behind some titles to push their vision to the consumer.

These guys have to convince the consumer and sell GPU's after all. See no harm here at all.

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: sbuckler
The fact that it doesn't work on ati hardware is more ati's fault for not having anything like physx and 3d vision, and not trying to get developers to use it.

You can't blame ATi because they didn't chose to adapt their competitors technology. Its like blaming nVidia because of the lack of support for DX10.1 or Stream. Implementation of new technology in games depends sorely in the developers relationship and how good they sell themselves to support their technology. It happened a couple of times with technologies that came from ATi like 3Dc, Fetch4, Anti Aliasing calculation through shader, DX10.1, HDR with Anti Aliasing, or with nVidia like PhysX, custom shadow filtering support, NVAPI, and their overall optimizations under TWIMTBP program which has better developer support than ATi's Get in the Game.

 

[Rezist]

Well I'm sure batman on the consoles is running physx lol. They did remove the elements of the PC game so it could only be enjoyed by nVidia users. Your best answer if own an ATi card is just not buy it. That being said I think Phsyx is a good thing while I haven't seen anything particularly great or anything worth the performance hit. Future cards will run it better and developers will get better with it. The question is though if nVidia can release cards that are powerful enough to max out the game and run the physx.

The ideal solution is an open standard like openCL, but ATi won't spend the money to push it. But should they land a console deal for the next xbox or PS4 and it's a usable feature it will get adopted very quickly since consoles are now driving PC development sadly.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
LOL . Lithith . Your like all men . How dare a women claim equality! Mysteries remain mystries to the blind. Your view is same view as the HRCC/ JEWS/ Moslems. LOL!

You didn't see AMDs dance. Go utube . What part of AMD using CL with Havoc don't You understand. CL arrivies with DX11.

Look been good thread . Don't muddy up waters. You have already used this tactic on another poster. I won't play as I would be banned and you wouldn't . But your NO match for me. Larrabee gets here when it gets here . Imagination gets here when it gets here . DX 11 and CL gets here when it gets here . The promised show starts when they arrive . What part of that don't you understand?

Not my view and Women DO dare to claim it now .. finally; but not what Lilith wanted :brokenheart:
- you *completely miss* what is underlying your "mysteries" .. it is too simple

Larrabeast gets here next year .. crippled by heat and too slow in real applications
- but it will be nice IG and a good improvement over what they have now
. . . Lilith ... she never makes it; i think she gets held up at the hairdresser

and i still don't see what is happening "special" with AMD, physics and DX11
- .. letsee, it was supposed to "happen" with DX9 and Havok .. way back then when PainKiller has some pretty good use of it and we were hoping for something that never came

 

[Nemesis 1]

Your right about Havoc and ATI on DX9 / But differant companies now. Its AMD/ATI now and Intel/Havoc. Intel makes cpus AMD makes CPUs AMD makes GPUs Intel makes cheesey GPUs .

Point being the differance between than and now is the CPU has changed alot a hugh amount . More of them . Havok is going to use both cpu and gpu .

Ya know the problem here is the same as it was befor C2D release. We had benchies we had intels word . But Only a few believed . After the release the naysayers forgot they ever said it isn't so . Duvie is the only ! I recall who said OH my. goodness missed that one . Thats even after Duvie new about Dothan and what followed. But he was still Man enough own up . Lets see how the end of this turns out. Because the number of elite saying same as you is staggering . If it turns out to be true. The majority be right . In my lifetime the majority have been wrong ever single time on all things. I liked the C2D launch made me feel good inside to see all those peps wrong . Same thing here when I told ya the ATI 4000 would surprise and please . That was the best one so far for me . But this next one is the crown Jewal . WE have nay sayers to hybred RT/ Lucid hydra/ Intel larrabee/ Imagination technology. Apple Snow. Havoc Physics (software) and we have to put NV PX in here also. The yes vote for naysayers. Some anyway. This is the big win all the elite are naysayers. Which will move them out of the dog house and into the chicken coop.

8 months all shall be revealed and we can move to next debates . After the Winners of these debates take there credits and dish the loosers.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1snip/

8 months all shall be revealed and we can move to next debates . After the Winners of these debates take there credits and dish the loosers.

it has never happened before and i doubt it will ever happen.

The losers will never admit it; one in a thousand, perhaps. i am looking forward to your spin next Summer of what went wrong

 

[EnzoLT]

Originally posted by: apoppin
i think PhysX is more than a gimmick as it does add to Cryostasis

in Batman also

GPU PhysX in Batman Arkham Asylum Demo

there is a LOT of difference between the OP's short little clip; i doubt a 4830 could even run Arkham Asylum at even med details with no physics

i have a 4830. ran it maxed on 1080p just fine..

and physx is and isnt a gimmick at the same time. a cpu can do it just fine given the proper coding but on the other hand, physx implementation does offer some of its own benefits.

hooray for progress right?

 

[Nemesis 1]

I read it . Just nothing more to add . lets justwait till march . Well I forgot the NV 300 won't be done until 2011 . So well see what ATI AMD imagination and intel have in March. Than in Dec of 2011 we can see how the NV 300 works cause we won't see it till than .

 

[Nemesis 1]

I know nothing about this trailer . Except is part of a family I have. I must have .

I like this no matter what it is looks good.

Physx is just a gimmick. Find wolfstein trailer in other thread! I like that.

 

[reallyscrued]

Originally posted by: SirPauly

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

We had destructible environments in Half Life 2, sparks in Doom 3 , steam/fog in a million games, without the need for PhysX

You are absolutely right, we had environments that fell apart in nicely scripted ways and fog we clipped through. The difference with a physics simulation is how things respond to interaction, not just that some things can respond to physical interaction(and in the case of fog, it doesn't even respond without a physics simulation running).

...Right. And my question was...why couldn't they have just left the nicely scripted ways environments blew apart and keep the fog we could clip through when PhysX is not enabled? But then make them realtime when PhysX *is* enabled?

That's what makes it an nV showcase.

I would say it is indeed a nV showcase at times and see nothing wrong with that. When I do see some 10.1 titles -- think it is great to see AMD/ATI get behind some titles to push their vision to the consumer.

These guys have to convince the consumer and sell GPU's after all. See no harm here at all.

DX 10.1 titles are not really ATI showcases... you can still run most titles in DX10 or DX9 paths and get relatively the same effects/experience.

It's just a cheap shot when it comes to PhysX because they remove the streamers/fog/breakable tiles altogether when you disable the option. It just kind of leaves people without proper PhysX hardware high and dry.

and Keys, I don't see how much "extra" programming it would take to just implement static fog/streamers and only one way tiles can break.

"Extra Programming" is a lame excuse.

Trust me, some kid is probably gonna release a mod to render them as a static option anyway with no compromise on performance, so it really doesn't matter to me. I just think its stupid that the developers of BAA won't do the programming of "some kid".

 

[SirPauly]

I guess, the AMD logo for BattleForge, being a 10.1 title and all means nothing. The Press Releases from AMD about how their leadership with 10.1 and gaming titles never happened. I think AMD/ATI evangelizing 10.1 support or their feature sets for some titles are a great thing for the PC and for AMD/ATI customers as a whole. It brings awareness to them in my mind-set.

What do you mean by removed? PhysX was added. Are you offering that Batman had scripted versions of a sort of dynamic paper, steam and fog, banners that wave, and tiles that did break but removed them? It seems nothing was removed but dynamic aspects were added.

But, It seems you expect the developers to add not only PhysX support but go out of their way to offer scripted versions of these effects as well. It isn't nice to see things actually added but it's a cheap shot.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Originally posted by: SirPauly
What do you mean by removed? PhysX was added. Are you offering that Batman had scripted versions of a sort of dynamic paper, steam and fog, banners that wave, and tiles that did break but removed them? It seems nothing was removed but dynamic aspects were added.

Seems nothing was removed? You must be oblivious to truth.

Are you really suggesting there were no banners hanging down from the ceiling? That they completely finished the game off then added those for physx? They are only there to hold those banners. It looks borderline stupid to have them there.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx

Originally posted by: SirPauly
What do you mean by removed? PhysX was added. Are you offering that Batman had scripted versions of a sort of dynamic paper, steam and fog, banners that wave, and tiles that did break but removed them? It seems nothing was removed but dynamic aspects were added.

Seems nothing was removed? You must be oblivious to truth.

Are you really suggesting there were no banners hanging down from the ceiling? That they completely finished the game off then added those for physx? They are only there to hold those banners. It looks borderline stupid to have them there.

Perhaps your radeon is not rendering properly

The devs held up Batman to ADD PhysX to it; not remove bits from other pathways to make it look worse for you

 

[SirPauly]

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx

Originally posted by: SirPauly
What do you mean by removed? PhysX was added. Are you offering that Batman had scripted versions of a sort of dynamic paper, steam and fog, banners that wave, and tiles that did break but removed them? It seems nothing was removed but dynamic aspects were added.

Seems nothing was removed? You must be oblivious to truth.

Are you really suggesting there were no banners hanging down from the ceiling? That they completely finished the game off then added those for physx? They are only there to hold those banners. It looks borderline stupid to have them there.

Think you have me pegged; I must be oblivious to the truth, hehe!

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Originally posted by: SirPauly

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx

Originally posted by: SirPauly
What do you mean by removed? PhysX was added. Are you offering that Batman had scripted versions of a sort of dynamic paper, steam and fog, banners that wave, and tiles that did break but removed them? It seems nothing was removed but dynamic aspects were added.

Seems nothing was removed? You must be oblivious to truth.

Are you really suggesting there were no banners hanging down from the ceiling? That they completely finished the game off then added those for physx? They are only there to hold those banners. It looks borderline stupid to have them there.

Think you have me pegged; I must be oblivious to the truth, hehe!

Sarcastic or not that's alright.

Its just things ARE completely removed. They could have atleast kept banners there, regardless if they moved or not.

 

[BFG10K]

I had hoped Crysotasis would finally make me care about PhysX, but given the game runs like an absolute pig even with it disabled (1680x1050 with no AA still crawls on my GTX285 in places), I won?t be castrating the game further by enabling PhysX effects anytime soon.

 

[SirPauly]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
I had hoped Crysotasis would finally make me care about PhysX, but given the game runs like an absolute pig even with it disabled (1680x1050 with no AA still crawls on my GTX285 in places), I won?t be castrating the game further by enabling PhysX effects anytime soon.

Hope to see improvements as time passes. Personally take each title separate and try to gauge the new effects. It's pretty tough to please every one with every thing in my mind-set.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
I had hoped Crysotasis would finally make me care about PhysX, but given the game runs like an absolute pig even with it disabled (1680x1050 with no AA still crawls on my GTX285 in places), I won?t be castrating the game further by enabling PhysX effects anytime soon.

can you add your GTX 260+ as a secondary card dedicated to PhysX?

... what kind of FPS are you getting?

 

[SirPauly]

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx

Originally posted by: SirPauly

Originally posted by: Scholzpdx

Originally posted by: SirPauly
What do you mean by removed? PhysX was added. Are you offering that Batman had scripted versions of a sort of dynamic paper, steam and fog, banners that wave, and tiles that did break but removed them? It seems nothing was removed but dynamic aspects were added.

Seems nothing was removed? You must be oblivious to truth.

Are you really suggesting there were no banners hanging down from the ceiling? That they completely finished the game off then added those for physx? They are only there to hold those banners. It looks borderline stupid to have them there.

Think you have me pegged; I must be oblivious to the truth, hehe!

Sarcastic or not that's alright.

Its just things ARE completely removed. They could have atleast kept banners there, regardless if they moved or not.

All imho,

It's nice to see improvements in the PC version of Batman when compared to the console -- this is the context I try to see it. Others may see it as just an ATI vs nVidia context and fine. When I see GPU PhysX -- I'm not really seeing just an ATI vs nVidia context but a company trying to bring more gaming experience value to the PC platform at this time.

When I see GPU Physics, not looking at the potential of just PhysX -- but what stream processing may do for an industry stand-point. Sorry, can't ignore it just because nVidia is trying to be aggressive here or not being ideal. I'm really interested in what this may do; the effects offered and how it may help immersion; to help redefine how gamers think about their games.

Do I desire to see more compelling content? Of course!

Do I desire to see less of a performance hit? Of course!

Do I desire to see ATI/AMD/Intel/ComputeShader/OpenCL/Havok to be part of it? Of course!

Considering this is the beginning stages of this, there is no ideal -- just the start and takes stream processing time to mature in every sense of the word. Desire to learn and try to enjoy the content instead of pointing fingers and offering cheap-shots.

 

[vj8usa]

Originally posted by: SirPauly

All imho,

It's nice to see improvements in the PC version of Batman when compared to the console -- this is the context I try to see it. Others may see it as just an ATI vs nVidia context and fine. When I see GPU PhysX -- I'm not really seeing just an ATI vs nVidia context but a company trying to bring more gaming experience value to the PC platform at this time.

When I see GPU Physics, not looking at the potential of just PhysX -- but what stream processing may do for an industry stand-point. Sorry, can't ignore it just because nVidia is trying to be aggressive here or not being ideal. I'm really interested in what this may do; the effects offered and how it may help immersion; to help redefine how gamers think about their games.

Do I desire to see more compelling content? Of course!

Do I desire to see less of a performance hit? Of course!

Do I desire to see ATI/AMD/Intel/ComputeShader/OpenCL/Havok to be part of it? Of course!

Considering this is the beginning stages of this, there is no ideal -- just the start and takes stream processing time to mature in every sense of the word. Desire to learn and try to enjoy the content instead of pointing fingers and offering cheap-shots.

I think you're missing Scholzpdx's point - maybe you didn't watch the video? Physx is a great concept, but Batman's more an example of nvidia marketing rather than a good example of the real difference Physx makes. Games have had things like static smoke and flying sparks for a long, long time. There's no practical reason to completely remove smoke, sparks, and even cloth banners when you turn off Physx. I guess you could argue that it'd take them more time to code in static/preanimated versions of these things, but I'm pretty sure that'd be trivial to do.

This actually hurts nvidia users as well, since not everyone will be able to handle the performance hit that's caused by enabling Physx. Now people with less powerful nvidia GPUs won't be able to compromise and have static smoke/sparks/etc with higher framerates either.
P.S. - those benchmarks are with a GTX295. Taken from here:
http://www.widescreengamingfor...hp/Batman_Benchmarking

 

[reallyscrued]

Originally posted by: vj8usa
I think you're missing Scholzpdx's point - maybe you didn't watch the video? Physx is a great concept, but Batman's more an example of nvidia marketing rather than a good example of the real difference Physx makes. Games have had things like static smoke and flying sparks for a long, long time. There's no practical reason to completely remove smoke, sparks, and even cloth banners when you turn off Physx.

This.

Originally posted by: apoppin
The devs held up Batman to ADD PhysX to it; not remove bits from other pathways to make it look worse for you

Remove pathways? No. But what is the point of not programming stuff that games have had for 5-6 years already in a static form? Hell, I remember GTA III at least had newspapers on the ground.

Btw, the answer to the bolded question is: nVidia Marketing.

If only games came out in DX10.1 absolutely required DX10.1, and if you didn't have it, the game would remove pixel shaders altogether, would you (apoppin) understand what I'm saying.

 

[SirPauly]

Hehe, I don't know those banners that for some have been "taken out" for the non-PhysX option, in the comparison video that Zogrim kindly offered for the community are not offered for the normal PhysX option as well. The high PhysX setting offers them. I just can't believe nVidia would do that to the consumer and is a cheap-shot -- considering they could of offered static representations of them for non-PhysX and normal PhysX users.

 

[Atechie]

They ones talking about DX11 needs to put down the bong and STFU.

I dare you to provide links to a "physics" API in DX11...ball in your court!

And static physics vs real physics?
Bye bye multiplayer...come on.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Originally posted by: SirPauly
Hehe, I don't know those banners that for some have been "taken out" for the non-PhysX option, in the comparison video that Zogrim kindly offered for the community are not offered for the normal PhysX option as well. The high PhysX setting offers them. I just can't believe nVidia would do that to the consumer and is a cheap-shot -- considering they could of offered static representations of them for non-PhysX and normal PhysX users.

Now both sides are not innocent but nVidia really doesn't care about their customers as much as they should. From the other super long thread about disabling physx when any ATI product is found to not supporting XP64 despite full support promises before it was released.

I was so pissed (and still kind of am after dropping $$ on XP64) when I tried to use my 8800GTS. Back to 32-bit I went. Way to back out on a paying customer.

Physx is marketing really. They have taken elements out of games and tried to make us need physx to have a fully featured product. That's BS.