Piracy is terrible for you and society

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LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
670
126
Curious how lossless, MP3 users get the files in the first place if you don't buy CD's? Most of my collection isn't available for download at all, and what is available is low bitrate pirate MP3's. No thanks.

You're doing it wrong....
 

mnewsham

Lifer
Oct 2, 2010
14,539
428
136
if they are downloading they will be members of invite only torrent sites that specialize in high quality music downloads. and there are a few of them out there

There are also HD movie ones and such, they usually require you to seed a minimum ratio to what you download (download 10GB, upload 15GB)
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Everyone thinks like the OP in some form. People that work in a certain field will kill your first born to defend their industry and paycheck.

I'm not even in the music industry. I'm just saying that I think that in many ways we're destroying ourselves through piracy. I think that for albums, cds are the best way to really experience them.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,431
3,537
126
Remember how fucking hard it was to open CD's? Try to peel off the cellophane wrapping, then there was that awful sticker covering the top of the case. It took like 10 minutes to open a fucking CD.

I DO NOT miss those days...

You were doing it wrong. Take the CD and run the bottom of the case down along the edge of something quickly. Non-rounded counter tops work nicely. Now the cellophane is open along that edge and comes off in 2 seconds. Next take a sharp object and run it along the sticker. Car keys generally work well. I could open a CD in about 5 seconds.

1. cds sound better. No question. CD's sound better than MP3's. Beyond that though, like I've found that cds played through my discman sound better than like lossless files sound through my ipod, due to the differences in the DAC.

That all depends on the mastering and compression. I have cds that I loved to listen too. Then I got an actual sound system and they are so flat and compressed that I don't listen to them anymore. Its beyond absurd when I can get more dynamic range from Youtube than a large number of cds. As a side note I think there is an underground movement reversing the trend. I am finding a lot of new, small artists who are putting out mp3s, cds, youtube clips with far more range than much larger artists
 

Jinny

Senior member
Feb 16, 2000
896
0
76
You were doing it wrong. Take the CD and run the bottom of the case down along the edge of something quickly. Non-rounded counter tops work nicely. Now the cellophane is open along that edge and comes off in 2 seconds. Next take a sharp object and run it along the sticker. Car keys generally work well. I could open a CD in about 5 seconds.



That all depends on the mastering and compression. I have cds that I loved to listen too. Then I got an actual sound system and they are so flat and compressed that I don't listen to them anymore. Its beyond absurd when I can get more dynamic range from Youtube than a large number of cds. As a side note I think there is an underground movement reversing the trend. I am finding a lot of new, small artists who are putting out mp3s, cds, youtube clips with far more range than much larger artists


This, a lot of the popular music these days are so dynamically compressed it hurts my ears.
The better my stereo equipment got, the worse it sounded.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
And RIAA? They fought the change tooth and nail.
They still do, to the point that it's sometimes comical. They've had numbers for years showing their sales and royalties shrinking like mad, as if the music industry fell off a cliff in 1999 (the Year of Napster(tm)). Meanwhile, agencies without that agenda, like Neilson, have generally shown YoY growth, though with a few stagnant years from the recession.

We're seeing the same problems now with video, e-books, television, and gaming. The pirates are offering a better product (DRM free, better selection, higher quality encoding, instant availability) compared to the legal alternatives.
And there will be those pirates in the future--you're not going to get rid of them. trying to with zeal only frustrates others, sometimes sending them to piracy, ironically. But, offer a good convenience method to access the content, and don't make it inferior content when you do (or, make it dirt cheap), and people will come. One trend I've noticed, as a gamer, FI, is that several people I know will still pirate games, except those in GoG's catalog. Also, some people that used to pirate games a lot, even though they had the money, now just use Steam, and find the convenience worth the lack of hassle. Not population-wide, and not scientific, I'll grant you. But, offering a better product and/or better service works.

I'm not even in the music industry. I'm just saying that I think that in many ways we're destroying ourselves through piracy. I think that for albums, cds are the best way to really experience them.
Well, I think streaming from a file server is. So there. As long as it's played back in order, without gaps that were not intended between tracks, I'd rather have the convenience of not juggling fragile discs. I've also never owned an iPod, and mentally dislike the syncing paradigm (using a file manager just makes more sense, IMO).

And, again, you keep bringing up piracy like anything not using a CD is piracy. CDs being a better way to experience albums is just being anachronistic/nostalgic. It's a totally separate thing from piracy, regardless of what effects piracy may or may not have on the culture.
 
Last edited:
Apr 17, 2003
37,622
0
76
I think that the world was better when music was all contained on cds. Let me explain why:

1. cds sound better. No question. CD's sound better than MP3's. Beyond that though, like I've found that cds played through my discman sound better than like lossless files sound through my ipod, due to the differences in the DAC.

I can't tell the difference.

2. While listening to the cd, you can look through the little booklet, and that contributes to the music listening experience.

Never done that.

3. With CD's, you have like a rube-goldberg-like contraption spinning a disc and giving you music. It's physical.

The fact that the media is physical has absolutely zero impact on the level of enjoyment I get.

4. CD's are actually more convenient than MP3 players. MP3 players require you to constantly manage your collection and play musical chairs, deciding which songs to delete off of it to make room for something else. CD's, you just grab one album and listen to it in your car or something.

Not sure if serious...
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
I can't tell the difference.



Never done that.



The fact that the media is physical has absolutely zero impact on the level of enjoyment I get.



Not sure if serious...

-Eh, a combination of the discman's DAC + superior cd fidelity makes the discman sound better to me than the ipod.

- you should try looking at the booklet while listening to songs.

- audiophilia is all about doing weird ritualistic shit to enjoy music. There was something not long ago about like marking the art side with a sharpie to improve fidelity. Or monster cables

- as I explained, managing my ipod requires me to play musical chairs with the music, which I often forget to do.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,936
12,384
126
www.anyf.ca
With redundant mass storage being fairly cheap I rather have my movies and music in a non DRM standard file format (such as what I get from torrents) that I can access at any given time, than having a bunch of CD's or DVDs everywhere, or the alternative: streaming, which requires the internet to be available and reliable.

I really think the movie and music companies need to suck it up and give consumers what they want: Non DRM downloadable content. Sure, it will be a bit easier to pirate, but no matter how much effort and money they put into DRM crap, people find a way. Get rid of all this DRM crap and just let us pay 5 bucks or w/e to download a movie in a standard file format. Same with games. Let's not get started with the whole Sim City fiasco and how that backfired. :biggrin:
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
I think that the world was better when music was all contained on cds. Let me explain why:

1. cds sound better. No question. CD's sound better than MP3's. Beyond that though, like I've found that cds played through my discman sound better than like lossless files sound through my ipod, due to the differences in the DAC.
1) Encode an MP3 at 320kpbs, high quality mode. The difference would be quite minimal.
2) If you're using a lossless compression scheme, the output will, by definition, be identical to the input. Therefore, as you said, the only difference would result from the hardware that drives the speakers, which is completely independent of the CD versus the file format.


2. While listening to the cd, you can look through the little booklet, and that contributes to the music listening experience.
Assuming the little booklet includes pictures, lyrics, or anything of value. And it's also one more physical piece of media to either keep track of, or lose. (That's my bias - I much prefer electronic formats to physical media.)


3. With CD's, you have like a rube-goldberg-like contraption spinning a disc and giving you music. It's physical.
Which is precisely why I prefer having some other format - so I don't have to have a sophisticated digital record player.


4. CD's are actually more convenient than MP3 players. MP3 players require you to constantly manage your collection and play musical chairs, deciding which songs to delete off of it to make room for something else. CD's, you just grab one album and listen to it in your car or something.
So keep less than 74 minutes of music on your MP3 player. Or put it into folders by album.


As for society,

1. CD's provided more jobs and money for creative people than today's piracy-rife digital age. You have people employed as studio techs, the musicians obviously, the people working in record stores and the people working in warehouses, and then there are more people in marketing directing music videos and placing glossy ads.
And the transition away from horses for transportation put a lot of domestic blacksmiths out of business. Markets change. It happens.


2. the creative industries offered the possibility IMO of endless employment. Like, every industry, tends to get so efficient that no one is needed anymore. Like, the first microwaves probably required a lot of highly paid people to design and manufacture them, but as time has gone on and the processes have improved, they need less and less people. Because creative industries don't have an "endpoint" like most of technology, it can be a source of endless growth and jobs. I'm willing to bet that if digital technology hadn't decimated the creative industries, unemployment in the USA would be like 1-2% lower.
There's still a limit to how much artistic content a population can consume, so "endless employment" or "endless growth" aren't accurate. And beside that, music tastes change. How many Big Band style musical numbers are on the Top 100 charts these days?
Efficiency: Ok, so the market's getting more efficient. Even CDs made it efficient. You don't need to have the band standing in front of you performing. They did their performance at a bunch of equipment, which was then used to make CDs, which were used to entertain thousands or millions of people. So even CDs represent an immense improvement in the efficiency of distributing entertainment.
Then there's the simple fact that, in most industries, improvements in efficiency lead to an improvement for society: Improvements in the standard of living.


3. Creative industries are also overwhelmingly domestic, while nowadays, most of the profit (and tax revenue) is being captured by tech giants and asian electronics manufacturers.
And if large organizations in that industry were able to find any way of offshoring their profits to avoid taxes, they would do it in an instant.


So yeah, there it is. Another thing is that I don't quite get why people get so huffy about their "fair use" rights. Seriously. Is it really a big deal if you have 2-3 copies of the same work of art?
Many people don't feel that they should need to pay for each device they want to listen with - in the car, at the computer, while out jogging...a person purchased the music, not the device. Let the person, the paying customer, listen to it wherever they want to.

And just on the subject of piracy: CDs were incredibly easy to rip. That it was a physical medium is merely a minor inconvenience to pirates. Then with the invention of CD burners, creating copies of the physical media became simple as well.


1. music stores: they also provide community (how many people have you met while shopping on itunes?). Amazon would be a problem, but reduced rate isn't near as big a problem as absolutely free.
The same number I've met while shopping for CDs.


3. Domestic production is creative technical work. As someone who is on a technology site, I'd think you'd appreciate a lot of the craftsmanship that audio engineers do.
And you've got more domestic artists now who are directly distributing their content over the Internet. If they had to go to the trouble of pressing CDs, or distributing cheap CD-R copies, they probably wouldn't do that at all.


You seriously think reading some dry wikipedia entry is better than looking at an album booklet?
A Wikipedia entry need not be "dry." And it can also contain a lot more information than a booklet - or it can even contain links to the musician's site.



I was with you until this point. CDs are ungood for the car. Prior to long trips you have to agonize for days trying to decide which to bring and which to leave behind. With a <insert flavor of your choosing here> player you can take your entire music collection with you. I agree with your points on sound quality but to steal a Steven Wright quote "I drive way too fast to worry about sound quality". Add the risk of warping your CDs in the Summer heat and CDs are best left at home.
And the early/cheap car CD players had very little buffer memory, so each bump would result in a skip. If you've ever driven on a highway in Pennsylvania, the bumps would often prevent the CD player from even being able to get going again properly, and it would just get switched off. It wasn't until they started putting much larger memory buffers in there that they were really usable. (Early ones would boast perhaps 3 seconds of buffer memory. It quickly progressed to >60 seconds, as memory got cheaper.)



So one form or another may not necessarily be inherently better. A CD is just one way of storing digital data, as is a hard drive, or flash memory. If you like physical media, ok, do that. Some people still like newspapers, books, and magazines because they like the feel of paper and turning pages. I prefer electronic formats because they take up much less physical space (less clutter), and are easier to organize and search.
 

Ayah

Platinum Member
Jan 1, 2006
2,512
1
81
Try 1Mbps FLAC. I'll let you guess at the specifications of the recordings.
 

WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,524
553
136
if they are downloading they will be members of invite only torrent sites that specialize in high quality music downloads. and there are a few of them out there

So pirated music, and they think they are safe because it's a private tracker.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
High bitrate mp3 + line out adaptor for iPhone + headphone amp + sennhieser HD555.

While that's true, that's also really complicated.

I should add that I don't use a discman if I want to listen to music while out in the city. I have an ipod for that

but at home I'm finding that a discman results in great enjoyment of music.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
I find his reasoning a bit obtuse. CD's (while they were better quality than vinyl) were cumbersome and annoying overall. For a short time, yes I missed the artwork, but you get over it because what it comes down to is the music. Why do you think MP3 caught on so fast? A single managed place for all your music. I find 192/256 to be ok depending on the music, and 320 just great.

It's all about mobility and catering to personal preferences. If you can't or are unwilling to do this, you will fail.

Oh, and there's a simple solution to piracy. Quit making products. If it bothers people that much, then quit putting your stuff out there. It's not like piracy suddenly just popped up in the last 10 years. Before you get all "well but omg ppl can do it so much easier these days" remember that these people also have a larger customer base and sell exponentially more now than they did 20 years ago. Piracy isn't hurting the industry nearly as much as they try to let on. It's a crutch. All these companies going under are going under due to mismanagement, not lack of money. Their upper people are getting paid just fine.
 
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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
I find his reasoning a bit obtuse. CD's (while they were better quality than vinyl)
Also, to be fair, this was not entirely the case, at first. Many initial transfers to CDs, especially of popular music, kinda sucked. The early Black Sabbath and Jethro Tull albums, FI, might very well sound better on well-treated vinyl, than their initial CD releases. As it got to be more widely known, Warner, Sony, and others (Rhino, FI) started doing quality re-transfers and re-masters by the mid 90s. It's not that the technology was that bad, but they were so sold on it being just perfect, that they did total hack jobs of transferring the recordings.

Other tan that little nitpick, and my multiple copies of several albums on CD , carry on...
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
Also, to be fair, this was not entirely the case, at first. Many initial transfers to CDs, especially of popular music, kinda sucked. The early Black Sabbath and Jethro Tull albums, FI, might very well sound better on well-treated vinyl, than their initial CD releases. As it got to be more widely known, Warner, Sony, and others (Rhino, FI) started doing quality re-transfers and re-masters by the mid 90s. It's not that the technology was that bad, but they were so sold on it being just perfect, that they did total hack jobs of transferring the recordings.

Other tan that little nitpick, and my multiple copies of several albums on CD , carry on...

Yea, my statement was a generalization. I know there are vinyl purists out there, and yea, quality of CD's (and recording in general) got better over the years. Going back and listening to songs from the 70's / 80's vs now and there are a number of things that stand out different.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
lol at the little booklet, if we're going with that then CDs blow compared to LP vinyl records where real classic artwork and packaging ruled. From Cheech and Chong's Big Bamboo with the huge rolling paper insert, Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick with a complete fake newspaper as part of the album cover, The Rolling Stone's Their Satanic Majesties Request with the 3D art cover, Blind Faith's album with the topless girl holding a silver spaceship, to name just a couple of the incredible number of creative album covers that records used to come in.
 
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