Pistons Versus Lakers in the NBA Finals

[rufruf44]

Kobe is probably as good as MJ in term of skills and ability and clutch making shots right now, but he lack the ability to influence and will his teammate to victory ala MJ.

 

[iamme]

1 more game....i still can't believe it.

Ameesh....get that $10 in paypal ready :beer:

 

[tec699]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: manly

Originally posted by: TheBDB
The sad thing is the turning point of the game was the BS offensive foul call on Payton. They were only down by 6 then, and afterwards Kobe was called for a foul and a T, and the Lakers didn't regain their composure.

Was that an offensive foul, or another violation? I don't remember foul shots.

The bottom line is that champions don't lose their composure. Kobe isn't a champion, he's just an above average player who gets lucky every now and then. How many times would you see MJ get a T in a critical game they had to win???

So let's stop all the comparisons to MJ, because Kobe would be nothing without Shaq, and never would have won those rings without the Diesel. MJ could almost singlehandedly will a team to a title (Pippen was good, but not on the level of Shaq or Kobe). MJ>>>>>>>Kobe, this series makes it blatantly evident.

You have no idea about what your talking about. Why didn't MJ win a ring in the late 80's? Maybe it was because he didn't have players that could score! You want proof? Take a look at the late 1980's and you'll notice that Jordan would score 60 (+) points a game. And Chicago would still lose!! I remember when they played Boston in 1988. Jordan had 70(+) points and Chicago still lost the game.

So no MJ could not singlehandedly will a team to win. MJ made everyone around him that much better and Pippen definitely contrinuted to Jordan's success.

Kobe isn't a champion? Ha.. what the hell are you smoking? Kobe is only 25 years old and has 3 rings!! 25 years old!!! Jordan wasn't that young when he started to win championships. Kobe isn't a champion? Are you frekin nuts?

I'm not a Kobe fan but it's very obvious that you have a bias attitiude towards the Lakers guard.

 

[Rufio]

Originally posted by: tec699

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: manly

Originally posted by: TheBDB
The sad thing is the turning point of the game was the BS offensive foul call on Payton. They were only down by 6 then, and afterwards Kobe was called for a foul and a T, and the Lakers didn't regain their composure.

Was that an offensive foul, or another violation? I don't remember foul shots.

The bottom line is that champions don't lose their composure. Kobe isn't a champion, he's just an above average player who gets lucky every now and then. How many times would you see MJ get a T in a critical game they had to win???

So let's stop all the comparisons to MJ, because Kobe would be nothing without Shaq, and never would have won those rings without the Diesel. MJ could almost singlehandedly will a team to a title (Pippen was good, but not on the level of Shaq or Kobe). MJ>>>>>>>Kobe, this series makes it blatantly evident.

You have no idea about what your talking about. Why didn't MJ win a ring in the late 80's? Maybe it was because he didn't have players that could score! You want proof? Take a look at the late 1980's and you'll notice that Jordan would score 60 (+) points a game. And Chicago would still lose!! I remember when they played Boston in 1988. Jordan had 70(+) points and Chicago still lost the game.

So no MJ could not singlehandedly will a team to win. MJ made everyone around him that much better and Pippen definitely contrinuted to Jordan's success.

Kobe isn't a champion? Ha.. what the hell are you smoking? Kobe is only 25 years old and has 3 rings!! 25 years old!!! Jordan wasn't that young when he started to win championships. Kobe isn't a champion? Are you frekin nuts?

I'm not a Kobe fan but it's very obvious that you have a bias attitiude towards the Lakers guard.

AHAHAHH PWNED

 

[iamme]

tec699, you bring up a good point. Kobe has yet to show he can make those around him better. With Shaq dominating this series, Kobe should be averaging 10+ assists per game. all he needs to do is stop looking for his own shot and dump it into Shaq. Kobe's got the rings, but he's still a far cry from MJ's ability to make his whole team better.

 

[tec699]

Originally posted by: iamme
tec699, you bring up a good point. Kobe has yet to show he can make those around him better. With Shaq dominating this series, Kobe should be averaging 10+ assists per game. all he needs to do is stop looking for his own shot and dump it into Shaq. Kobe's got the rings, but he's still a far cry from MJ's ability to make his whole team better.

So very true.

Kobe hasn't gotten to the point where he makes the team better, but give him time. As I stated earlier the guy is only 25 years old. Jordan didn't even accomplish what Kobe has at such a young age. In time I have a feeling Kobe will have the exaact same traits as Jordan, but we need to be patient. Barring injuries, I can't even imagine what Kobe will be like when he hits 30 years old. The guy isn't even in his prime yet and that's scary.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Rufio

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: manly

Originally posted by: TheBDB
The sad thing is the turning point of the game was the BS offensive foul call on Payton. They were only down by 6 then, and afterwards Kobe was called for a foul and a T, and the Lakers didn't regain their composure.

Was that an offensive foul, or another violation? I don't remember foul shots.

The bottom line is that champions don't lose their composure. Kobe isn't a champion, he's just an above average player who gets lucky every now and then. How many times would you see MJ get a T in a critical game they had to win???

So let's stop all the comparisons to MJ, because Kobe would be nothing without Shaq, and never would have won those rings without the Diesel. MJ could almost singlehandedly will a team to a title (Pippen was good, but not on the level of Shaq or Kobe). MJ>>>>>>>Kobe, this series makes it blatantly evident.

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

Above average player who gets lucky every now and then? PLEASE SPARE ME.

Yes, Kobe is no better than Rip Hamilton, Billups, TMac, or Iverson. The only difference is that he has Shaq who is the greatest center of our era, which takes defensive pressure off of him (not to mention all of the other spectacular role players he had). Put Shaq on a team with an exceptional guard like Baron Davis, AI, or TMac and they would be romping as well. Where was Kobe the past two games? He was watching the ball get batted off his nose, that's where. Guaranteed MJ would have found a way to defeat Detroit, Kobe is an overhyped POS who makes less than half of his final "game winning" shots taken. The media will only show you the lucky shots he took, like against Portland and in game 2. What about the AIRBALL he shot at the end of one of the Houston games (which Shaq caught and slammed home to bail him out), or his brick in Game 3 of this series? If you tallied up all of the shots he took at the end of the game and missed to lose it, it's more than the ones he made. Yet he's labeled "CLUTCH" by the dck riding media :roll::roll:

Or how about how the media claims that scoring 30 points was "incredible" after flying to Colorado earlier in the day? Omg! It must have been so rough taking 3 hours out of your day to fly in your private jet from CA to CO, utter a couple of a words in front of a judge, and be back in time for lunch on gameday. Yet the media has the audacity to compare this Kobe bullsht to when Jordan had the flu and a 103degree temp. When MJ scored 38 points, and buried the tie-breaking three-pointer with 25 seconds left. The media dck rides Kobe as if he had to get through soooo much adversity to get to where he is now. PLEASE SPARE ME. Kobe doesn't know the first thing concerning words like HEART, LEADER or CLUTCH... MJ embodied them ALL, and didn't need the greatest center of his era to accomplish his feats.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: tec699

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: manly

Originally posted by: TheBDB
The sad thing is the turning point of the game was the BS offensive foul call on Payton. They were only down by 6 then, and afterwards Kobe was called for a foul and a T, and the Lakers didn't regain their composure.

Was that an offensive foul, or another violation? I don't remember foul shots.

The bottom line is that champions don't lose their composure. Kobe isn't a champion, he's just an above average player who gets lucky every now and then. How many times would you see MJ get a T in a critical game they had to win???

So let's stop all the comparisons to MJ, because Kobe would be nothing without Shaq, and never would have won those rings without the Diesel. MJ could almost singlehandedly will a team to a title (Pippen was good, but not on the level of Shaq or Kobe). MJ>>>>>>>Kobe, this series makes it blatantly evident.

You have no idea about what your talking about. Why didn't MJ win a ring in the late 80's? Maybe it was because he didn't have players that could score! You want proof? Take a look at the late 1980's and you'll notice that Jordan would score 60 (+) points a game. And Chicago would still lose!! I remember when they played Boston in 1988. Jordan had 70(+) points and Chicago still lost the game.

So no MJ could not singlehandedly will a team to win. MJ made everyone around him that much better and Pippen definitely contrinuted to Jordan's success.

Kobe isn't a champion? Ha.. what the hell are you smoking? Kobe is only 25 years old and has 3 rings!! 25 years old!!! Jordan wasn't that young when he started to win championships. Kobe isn't a champion? Are you frekin nuts?

I'm not a Kobe fan but it's very obvious that you have a bias attitiude towards the Lakers guard.

First off, you wildly proclaim TWENTY FIVE YEARS OLD OMG! Yet you forget that Jordan hit the game winning shot for North Carolina as a freshman at age 19, and actually went to college... kids didn't just go to the NBA right out of high school back then. Your statement is like comparing Derek Jeter (3 rings by age 25, 4 at age 26) to Babe Ruth. You're comparing individual ability to a team statistic (championships) which is absolutely absurd!

You give MJ the greatest center of his era (Hakeem) and guaranteed he would have won 3 championships in the "late 80's". Of course young MJ wasn't going to win championships by himself b/c he wasn't in his prime then... he was great, but not a legend yet b/c he was still developing his passing and defensive games (as well as intangibles like leadership). He entered his prime after he finally knocked out the Bad Boy Pistons in 1990-1991 playoffs and cruised to win the championship...

Jordan has never scored "70+" pts in a game? I don't know what game you're referring to, maybe the game he had scored 63 against Boston in 1986 and set the NBA playoff scoring record...

Yes I am sick of hearing about Kobe, when Shaq is primary reason for his success. He is an above average player (good would be the term) at best and it's disrespectful (as Magic Johnson would say) to even categorize MJ anywhere near little Kobe. IF Kobe ever places his selfishness on the shelf and magically becomes a leader, then we can start having this discussion.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon If MJ had the Red Sox on his team he never would have lost a game.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SP33Demon If MJ had the Red Sox on his team he never would have lost a game.

Lmao!! Not you again!!

 

[cash1220]

wow you are bitter, and i have no idea why

there is no question as to kobe's greatness. his play during the championship run speaks for itself. not to mention the respect he earns at all star games from the games BEST players and from other coaches. heck just look at this series, he has faced more double and tripple teams than shaq, and his jump shot has been OFF!

he isnt the player he was last year when he set an nba record with 40+ points in 10 games (or whatever the streak was) and 12 3's in a single game but he can still turn it on and put the team on his back. and for you to even mention billups (or hamilton) in the same sentence as kobe is just laughable. billups has been delt so many times he doenst even know who pays his check anymore. i do believe their is one player in todays nba that is an equal to bryant, and that is t-mac. allen iverson is a notch below those two and there isnt anybody even close to those three. billups and hamilton arent even all-star calliber, not to mention all-world.

is kobe as good as mj? is kobe as good as mj@25? well at the very least he is as clutch as mj ever was. hell mj's most memorable shot (game winning shot vs utah in 98) was a fraud. he pushed off against byron russel and of course it wasnt called. and if mj ever played with a player as good as shaq then there wouldnt even be an "mj." scoring titles, mvp's, 25+ shots/game with shaq on your team? just not possible.

and this laker team (starting in 2002) has had to deal with something that mj and the bulls never had to deal with - bias from the league and the refs. first the rules were changed to help teams deal with shaq (zone defense). and then the refs start calling laker playoff games really close (making them "earn" their victories). whatever happened to the playoffs being more physical?? of course this anti-laker officiating lead to that infamous makeup game 6 vs the kings in 2002 which so many laker haters site as evidence of pro laker officiating (always failing to mention the anti laker officiating which dominated the sprus and kings series leading up to that game).

 

[kalster]

I feel great to see how this series is going


the fuvktard peyton shudnt get a ring, he has done NOTHING in this playoffs, and very little in the whole season too

i wonder what he will do next, join the pistons?

 

[PlatinumGold]

i love these arbitrary ideas of what is and is not a champion.


bottom line Kobe was a significant factor in the Lakers winning 3 championships, hence he is a champion. any other definition is just arbitrary and stupid

 

[cash1220]

as for this series theres been four main factors that have contributed to the pistons being up 3-1. in no particular order.

1) coaching. the pistons are playing as good as they can play while the lakers seem lost. not puting grant on the playoff roster appears to be a big mistake now that malone is injured. jackson is also putting way too many weird lineups on the floor. walton needs to take a seat and fox needs more minutes. if malone cant go then put slava or brian cook on the floor, they can at least move laterally. there was also a lot of talk about not fouling shaq in game 2, well if thats anybodys fault then the blame has got to be on ben wallace, not larry brown. you also got to remember that if shaq passes and is then fouled then the lakers would have gotten 1 FT and the ball.

2) rebounding. the lakers cant rebound the ball. malones injury is a big part of this as the lakers were one of the best (if not the very best) at rebouding during the regular season.

3) malones injury. see 1) and 2)

4) officiating. ironically the worst officiated game was game 2, which the lakers won. the refs were going for some record for most fouls in a half in that game i swear. game 4 was pretty bad too though as they were calling ticky tack fouls on the lakers all night (Technical foul on Phil Jackson for crossnig the line - what a joke).

but lets see if the pistons can wrap it up on teusday

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: cash1220
as for this series theres been four main factors that have contributed to the pistons being up 3-1. in no particular order.

1) coaching. the pistons are playing as good as they can play while the lakers seem lost. not puting grant on the playoff roster appears to be a big mistake now that malone is injured. jackson is also putting way too many weird lineups on the floor. walton needs to take a seat and fox needs more minutes. if malone cant go then put slava or brian cook on the floor, they can at least move laterally. there was also a lot of talk about not fouling shaq in game 2, well if thats anybodys fault then the blame has got to be on ben wallace, not larry brown. you also got to remember that if shaq passes and is then fouled then the lakers would have gotten 1 FT and the ball.

2) rebounding. the lakers cant rebound the ball. malones injury is a big part of this as the lakers were one of the best (if not the very best) at rebouding during the regular season.

3) malones injury. see 1) and 2)

4) officiating. ironically the worst officiated game was game 2, which the lakers won. the refs were going for some record for most fouls in a half in that game i swear. game 4 was pretty bad too though as they were calling ticky tack fouls on the lakers all night (Technical foul on Phil Jackson for crossnig the line - what a joke).

but lets see if the pistons can wrap it up on teusday

to put it on Malones injury is weak. The Nets lost to the Pistons because Kidd wasn't 100% ( :roll: ). most teams have injuries in the finals to use that as an excuse is weak.

Pistons have been the better team in all four games so far. to blame it on officiating is even weaker than the exuse above.

Pistons are the better team.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
i love these arbitrary ideas of what is and is not a champion.


bottom line Kobe was a significant factor in the Lakers winning 3 championships, hence he is a champion. any other definition is just arbitrary and stupid

If your definition of "champion" is winning a championship, then so be it. Take Shaq away and he wouldn't be a "champion", it's that simple. Think Allen Iverson in his MVP year, if he had Shaq instead of Mutombo he too would have been a "champion". Or Rip Hamilton with the Wizards if they had Shaq... comparing Kobe to MJ is hilarious though, I love how some above poster claims his shot against UTAH was a "fraud" ahahhahaahhah and he pushed off. Kobe would be lucky to hit a shot of that magnitude with that much on the line!!!

Say what you want, but after this series Kobe/MJ comparison will finally stop. How do you lose with the DIESEL ON YOUR TEAM scoring 30/game!?? Absolutely fricking pathetic, I read in the paper the other day about how this series is probably the biggest upset in the NBA since 1974 and Golden State...

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: cash1220
as for this series theres been four main factors that have contributed to the pistons being up 3-1. in no particular order.

1) coaching. the pistons are playing as good as they can play while the lakers seem lost. not puting grant on the playoff roster appears to be a big mistake now that malone is injured. jackson is also putting way too many weird lineups on the floor. walton needs to take a seat and fox needs more minutes. if malone cant go then put slava or brian cook on the floor, they can at least move laterally. there was also a lot of talk about not fouling shaq in game 2, well if thats anybodys fault then the blame has got to be on ben wallace, not larry brown. you also got to remember that if shaq passes and is then fouled then the lakers would have gotten 1 FT and the ball.

2) rebounding. the lakers cant rebound the ball. malones injury is a big part of this as the lakers were one of the best (if not the very best) at rebouding during the regular season.

3) malones injury. see 1) and 2)

4) officiating. ironically the worst officiated game was game 2, which the lakers won. the refs were going for some record for most fouls in a half in that game i swear. game 4 was pretty bad too though as they were calling ticky tack fouls on the lakers all night (Technical foul on Phil Jackson for crossnig the line - what a joke).

but lets see if the pistons can wrap it up on teusday

to put it on Malones injury is weak. The Nets lost to the Pistons because Kidd wasn't 100% ( :roll: ). most teams have injuries in the finals to use that as an excuse is weak.

Pistons have been the better team in all four games so far. to blame it on officiating is even weaker than the exuse above.

Pistons are the better team.

Also, to say that Fox should have been in over Walton is absurd. IF Walton had a big game, you wouldn't be saying that... Phil Jackson can't possibly predict who will play well, he can only put the best players in the lineup at that point and time (Fox is not better than Walton right now, he's lost a step)...

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
i love these arbitrary ideas of what is and is not a champion.


bottom line Kobe was a significant factor in the Lakers winning 3 championships, hence he is a champion. any other definition is just arbitrary and stupid

If your definition of "champion" is winning a championship, then so be it. Take Shaq away and he wouldn't be a "champion", it's that simple. Think Allen Iverson in his MVP year, if he had Shaq instead of Mutombo he too would have been a "champion". Or Rip Hamilton with the Wizards if they had Shaq... comparing Kobe to MJ is hilarious though, I love how some above poster claims his shot against UTAH was a "fraud" ahahhahaahhah and he pushed off. Kobe would be lucky to hit a shot of that magnitude with that much on the line!!!

Say what you want, but after this series Kobe/MJ comparison will finally stop. How do you lose with the DIESEL ON YOUR TEAM scoring 30/game!?? Absolutely fricking pathetic, I read in the paper the other day about how this series is probably the biggest upset in the NBA since 1974 and Golden State...

and how many did shaq win without Kobe??

so does that mean Shaq isn't a champion? btw, how many did MJ win without Pippen?

that "without shaq" excuse is stupid. Ok, so you could say that Fox without Shaq or Kobe would never have won a championship, i can see that as he was no more than a marginal role player. but to think that Kobe is on the same level as Fox is plain stupid.

how many would Magic have won without Kareem?? or vice versa?

 

[Stifko]

Originally posted by: BaboonGuy
It'll be a great series if you're a lakers fan. Shaq + Kobe will basically crap all over Detroit.

hahhahahaa, all you lakers fans are singing the blues now, eh ? who is getting krapped on ???

 

[Ranger X]

Since no team has ever come back to win a championship with a 3-1 deficit, I hope the Pistons win at home instead of on Lakers' home court.

 

[moks78]

Noooooo! Detroit 3-1. C'mon Lakers show what you got!

 

[RedPickle]

Originally posted by: Ranger X
Since no team has ever come back to win a championship with a 3-1 deficit, I hope the Pistons win at home instead of on Lakers' home court.

I agree. Go Pistons!!!

 

[adelphi]

phil jackson to laker zen students

believe not your opponent will triumph,
1-3 are just numbers,
reflect on our success in forcing our opponent in a state of overconfidance
fark the ring
bigger salary + contract are keys to my enlightment

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
i love these arbitrary ideas of what is and is not a champion.


bottom line Kobe was a significant factor in the Lakers winning 3 championships, hence he is a champion. any other definition is just arbitrary and stupid

If your definition of "champion" is winning a championship, then so be it. Take Shaq away and he wouldn't be a "champion", it's that simple. Think Allen Iverson in his MVP year, if he had Shaq instead of Mutombo he too would have been a "champion". Or Rip Hamilton with the Wizards if they had Shaq... comparing Kobe to MJ is hilarious though, I love how some above poster claims his shot against UTAH was a "fraud" ahahhahaahhah and he pushed off. Kobe would be lucky to hit a shot of that magnitude with that much on the line!!!

Say what you want, but after this series Kobe/MJ comparison will finally stop. How do you lose with the DIESEL ON YOUR TEAM scoring 30/game!?? Absolutely fricking pathetic, I read in the paper the other day about how this series is probably the biggest upset in the NBA since 1974 and Golden State...

and how many did shaq win without Kobe??

so does that mean Shaq isn't a champion? btw, how many did MJ win without Pippen?

that "without shaq" excuse is stupid. Ok, so you could say that Fox without Shaq or Kobe would never have won a championship, i can see that as he was no more than a marginal role player. but to think that Kobe is on the same level as Fox is plain stupid.

how many would Magic have won without Kareem?? or vice versa?

It's not stupid. Since Shaq > Kobe, replace Kobe with AI/TMac/Baron/J.Kidd/<insert good guard here> and they win it all. Nobody in the league can guard Shaq, he is unstoppable. Many people can and have shut down Kobe, he is not the immovable force. Ever heard of "Hack a Kobe"? Hell no.
Hence, Kobe could NOT have won without Shaq (but maybe later if he matures like MJ did). Shaq COULD HAVE won without Kobe with any of the aforementioned names, or somebody arguably just as good as Kobe.

The same formula applies to MJ and Pippen, MJ > Pippen, so Pippen was replaceable. Magic and Kareem were BOTH the BEST at their respective positions, so you could have probably replaced either with a lesser and either would have carried their respective team. Together they were just like the All Star Team, nobody in the league could stop either!

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
i love these arbitrary ideas of what is and is not a champion.


bottom line Kobe was a significant factor in the Lakers winning 3 championships, hence he is a champion. any other definition is just arbitrary and stupid

If your definition of "champion" is winning a championship, then so be it. Take Shaq away and he wouldn't be a "champion", it's that simple. Think Allen Iverson in his MVP year, if he had Shaq instead of Mutombo he too would have been a "champion". Or Rip Hamilton with the Wizards if they had Shaq... comparing Kobe to MJ is hilarious though, I love how some above poster claims his shot against UTAH was a "fraud" ahahhahaahhah and he pushed off. Kobe would be lucky to hit a shot of that magnitude with that much on the line!!!

Say what you want, but after this series Kobe/MJ comparison will finally stop. How do you lose with the DIESEL ON YOUR TEAM scoring 30/game!?? Absolutely fricking pathetic, I read in the paper the other day about how this series is probably the biggest upset in the NBA since 1974 and Golden State...

and how many did shaq win without Kobe??

so does that mean Shaq isn't a champion? btw, how many did MJ win without Pippen?

that "without shaq" excuse is stupid. Ok, so you could say that Fox without Shaq or Kobe would never have won a championship, i can see that as he was no more than a marginal role player. but to think that Kobe is on the same level as Fox is plain stupid.

how many would Magic have won without Kareem?? or vice versa?

It's not stupid. Since Shaq > Kobe, replace Kobe with AI/TMac/Baron/J.Kidd/<insert good guard here> and they win it all. Nobody in the league can guard Shaq, he is unstoppable. Many people can and have shut down Kobe, he is not the immovable force. Ever heard of "Hack a Kobe"? Hell no.
Hence, Kobe could NOT have won without Shaq (but maybe later if he matures like MJ did). Shaq COULD HAVE won without Kobe with any of the aforementioned names, or somebody arguably just as good as Kobe.

The same formula applies to MJ and Pippen, MJ > Pippen, so Pippen was replaceable. Magic and Kareem were BOTH the BEST at their respective positions, so you could have probably replaced either with a lesser and either would have carried their respective team. Together they were just like the All Star Team, nobody in the league could stop either!

and you know this how??

:roll:

MJ NEVER won without Pippen. Shaq NEVER won without Kobe. Kareem won ONCE without Magic. Magic NEVER won without Kareem. . . .

what you say is pure speculation and proves nothing.

bottom line, Kobe is a champion because he won 3.