Pistons Vs. Pacers

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

Originally posted by: ctcsoft

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

Originally posted by: kevman

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1

Originally posted by: ctcsoft

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: Lash444

Originally posted by: ctcsoft

You fools. Read this article.

Text

It's ARTESTS fault for breaking the rule of no contact between fan/player. Had he not charges into the stands then BIG BEN would be the only one getting suspended. BUT NOOOOO. That dumbass thug just had to take matters into his own hands.

PACER players are idiots. They let the very stupid beer throwing ruin their season.

AND

30 games isn't sh!t. Spreewell got 68 games a few yrs back for choking his coach.

THINK ABOUT IT. You can sit there and try to justify Artests actions but he was wrong and will pay for it.

Preaching to the choir over here. I can't see how people dont see the major problem with Ron Artest's actions here. Siteing Ben Wallaces reaction as the starting point to the whole thing. My god, thats ridiculous. What is that quote again? "Dont argue with an idiot..because he will drag you down to his level and then beat you through experience?"

Artests foul on Wallace wasn't even hard. Look at it from all the angles you want, it wasn't hard.
Wallace took it to another level by pushing Artest in the face and kept on going on him while everyone was pushing him back. Artest never responded with anything towards Wallace.
At one point Wallace even threw a towel at him. He's lucky it didn't hit Artest.

The major issue isn't what artest did to ben OR what Ben did to Artest.

The issue is running into the stands like a mad man and being complete f'in idiots like the pacers did. This isn't some playground. This is PROFESSIONAL basketball and you just don't run into the stands NO MATTER WHAT. Sure Artest is man enought to take on a 5'8" helpless fan, but he damn sure wouldn't stand up to Big Ben now would he.


Artest didn't respond to Big Ben because he didn't want none! Big Ben would kick the living he|| out of Artest anyday.

As for the foul, it was harder than usual and the game was over. Artest had no business doing that and that set Big Ben off. Not to mention Ben W. just had his brother die. He isn't going to take sh!t from nobody.

omg you are seriously retarded ctc. artest didnt respond because he didnt want to get suspended he had his mind about him for a few minutes until the cup hit him.

MIKE

bullsh*t. Artest is a p*ssy when he know's he'll get his a$$ kicked

I've never seen that... Artest is a beast. Granted, Big Ben is moreso, but that doesn't mean Artest, at 6'7" 247 (and he's NOT fat), is gonna back down. He restrained himself, and that was commendable, it doesn't make him a pussy (but apparently he's supposed to restrain himself when something is thrown at him from the stands immediately after... whatever).

AND OF COURSE THE FEKIN NBA AGREES WITH YOU. The NBA wants to restore some kind of credibility to the damned sport. Sure, Artest and them should be suspended, but NOT for that long. It was fuggin self defense no matter how you look at it. Yes, it was an untimely foul, but you could say the same thing about Ben's reaction... The game was over, why start something like that? Why didn't he just take it like a man, because apparently when Ron Artest is provoked that's what he has to do? We all know it was against the rules, and that's all well and good, but what these fans did was ridiculous and I can't see blaming solely Artest for this incident as so many of you do. When you become a professional athlete, you aren't paid to give up your right to self defense. He was hit in the face with a plastic bottle full of liquid IMMEDIATELY after restraining himself during a near-fight that surely had his adrenaline pumping already. I'm sorry, but if you think what Artest did was wrong and that the fans weren't the main problem here, you have issues (and, by the way, the latest ESPN poll shows most of America saying it was the fans that were at fault, so you are, in fact, in the minority, and not vice versa).

Ok one last time....

ITS NOT SELF DEFENSE *unless* you life is in imminent danger.

The self defense story won't fly. He f'd up big time by going into the stands and thats all there is to it. If he wanted to vent some anger then he would've been better off going after Ben. Thats still wrong but hey it happens all the time and the league would rather have that then a riot.

If Artest doesn't go into the stands then Ben W. is the only one who would've got suspended for a couple games. This is all Artests fault for not controlling himself. No matter how retarded fans act, you don't go after them and attack.

Artest and the Pacers are f'd. They might as well forget about this season.

I guess we just feel differently about this... But, man, I don't understand how some of you come on here spouting all this stuff about it not being self defense and how most of the country agrees with you when that's not true, etc. IMO, it was the fans fault. Obviously Artest made a mistake as far as the rules go, but as human beings I figured more people would understand why he did this.

So, you agree that anytime a player is doused with beer he should run into the stands and start punching on anyone in the general vicinity of where the beer came from.

Not anytime. If it happens randomly, obviously it would have been easier for Artest to control himself... Maybe he'd yell a little or something. But this was right after he was nearly involved in a fight. His adrenaline was already pumping. I don't like how some of you are holding fans on a pedestal, that fans can throw sh!t at players and not have to expect any kind of retaliation. IMO, fans and players should be held to the same standards, but I guess that's just me and 48% of the nation.

And I'm 19, and I do plan on having kids. I don't see how that affects anything and why you're bringing personal things into this.

The retaliation to fans should be a set of handcuffs and a night in the pokey.

Not random vigilante justice meeted out by an angry 6' 7", 247 pound man.

 

[NYHoustonman]

An angry man that he provoked (don't get me wrong, he went after the wrong guy, and that guy will undoubtedly get some money out of the situation, but the man that DID throw the drink shouldn't hvae done it and expected nothing to happen. That defines cowardice for me. I guess as far as morals are concerned we differ, either that or you're a Pistons fan (if so, see above), but I still hate the idea that fans are above players when it comes to retaliation.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
......... but the man that DID throw the drink shouldn't hvae done it and expected nothing to happen.....

If I throw something on the field of play, I should expect the full weight of the law to come down on me.

Throwing a beer at someone is assault.

First time offense you'll get fines and will certainly keep you picking up trash along the e-way for a while.

 

[kevman]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

I've never seen that... Artest is a beast. Granted, Big Ben is moreso, but that doesn't mean Artest, at 6'7" 247 (and he's NOT fat), is gonna back down. He restrained himself, and that was commendable, it doesn't make him a pussy (but apparently he's supposed to restrain himself when something is thrown at him from the stands immediately after... whatever).

AND OF COURSE THE FEKIN NBA AGREES WITH YOU. The NBA wants to restore some kind of credibility to the damned sport. Sure, Artest and them should be suspended, but NOT for that long. It was fuggin self defense no matter how you look at it. Yes, it was an untimely foul, but you could say the same thing about Ben's reaction... The game was over, why start something like that? Why didn't he just take it like a man, because apparently when Ron Artest is provoked that's what he has to do? We all know it was against the rules, and that's all well and good, but what these fans did was ridiculous and I can't see blaming solely Artest for this incident as so many of you do. When you become a professional athlete, you aren't paid to give up your right to self defense. He was hit in the face with a plastic bottle full of liquid IMMEDIATELY after restraining himself during a near-fight that surely had his adrenaline pumping already. I'm sorry, but if you think what Artest did was wrong and that the fans weren't the main problem here, you have issues (and, by the way, the latest ESPN poll shows most of America saying it was the fans that were at fault, so you are, in fact, in the minority, and not vice versa).

Frist of all it was a plastic cup, not bottle. Second of all, yah he might be big, Big Ben is bigger and stronger. The minute he got his face pushed in he backed the hell off - but the minute he sees some puny idiot in the stand he goes right for him- on top of that the wrong guy. Artest's temper is really his downfall, he wants to be such a tough guy- kick his out of the NBA. who needs that joker. He basiccalyl screwed the pacers out of a decent season.

BTW- I am not a fan of either team. I'm calling it like i see it.

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
An angry man that he provoked (don't get me wrong, he went after the wrong guy, and that guy will undoubtedly get some money out of the situation, but the man that DID throw the drink shouldn't hvae done it and expected nothing to happen. That defines cowardice for me. I guess as far as morals are concerned we differ, either that or you're a Pistons fan (if so, see above), but I still hate the idea that fans are above players when it comes to retaliation.

this situation is so extreme that it's hard to point your finger at one side and say they are at fault. it seems that the situation kept worsening to another degree with the "help" of some new party (ben retaliates, fans retaliate, artest retaliates, o'neal retalaites, etc). who's to say that one party is at complete fault?

i disagree when people say that Artest is within his rights to pummel someone in retaliation to thrown beer. i also disagree when people say a player has the right to pummel someone the moment they step on the court. other points have been beaten to death, ad nasuem, to the nth degree.

with regards to Artest, the only reason i keep mentioning him is because many casual fans (and non-sports fans) will view the footage without knowing Artest's recent history of flagrant fouls and violent outbursts. many people will see Artest explode and say, "well, he lost his cool, but who wouldn't?" my point is, one of the most violent player to fan brawls happened to have Artest right in the middle of it. i don't think that's a coincidence. this guy has shown that once pushed over the edge, he's liable for extremely dangerous outbursts.

 

[aplefka]

I hope this thread gets locked today. Way too many idiots are posting in it. Basically, this is how I've read it.

MY ARGUMENT IS THE BEST YOUR'S IS WRONG AND I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS FOR NO REASON!!1!!1

No, your argument is wrong because mine is right and I'm gonna throw in a "Ron Artest is a pussy!" just for the heck of it.

And it just keeps going on and on. Seriously, all the noobs to the NBA as well as just the idiots of society need to leave this thread.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: kevman

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

I've never seen that... Artest is a beast. Granted, Big Ben is moreso, but that doesn't mean Artest, at 6'7" 247 (and he's NOT fat), is gonna back down. He restrained himself, and that was commendable, it doesn't make him a pussy (but apparently he's supposed to restrain himself when something is thrown at him from the stands immediately after... whatever).

AND OF COURSE THE FEKIN NBA AGREES WITH YOU. The NBA wants to restore some kind of credibility to the damned sport. Sure, Artest and them should be suspended, but NOT for that long. It was fuggin self defense no matter how you look at it. Yes, it was an untimely foul, but you could say the same thing about Ben's reaction... The game was over, why start something like that? Why didn't he just take it like a man, because apparently when Ron Artest is provoked that's what he has to do? We all know it was against the rules, and that's all well and good, but what these fans did was ridiculous and I can't see blaming solely Artest for this incident as so many of you do. When you become a professional athlete, you aren't paid to give up your right to self defense. He was hit in the face with a plastic bottle full of liquid IMMEDIATELY after restraining himself during a near-fight that surely had his adrenaline pumping already. I'm sorry, but if you think what Artest did was wrong and that the fans weren't the main problem here, you have issues (and, by the way, the latest ESPN poll shows most of America saying it was the fans that were at fault, so you are, in fact, in the minority, and not vice versa).

Frist of all it was a plastic cup, not bottle. Second of all, yah he might be big, Big Ben is bigger and stronger. The minute he got his face pushed in he backed the hell off - but the minute he sees some puny idiot in the stand he goes right for him- on top of that the wrong guy. Artest's temper is really his downfall, he wants to be such a tough guy- kick his out of the NBA. who needs that joker. He basiccalyl screwed the pacers out of a decent season.

Watch the video in slo-motion, frame by frame. It looks like one of those plastic sports bottles with a straw to me. He backed off because he didn't need a fight. Had he gone to fight, people would be saying, same old Ron Artest, the tough guy... But because he didn't he's a pussy? Then he gets hit in the face with a bottle and he's supposed to take that immediately after?

Ben Wallace was being a "tough guy" here too. The foul was not hard at all, and yet Ben feels like creating controversy with 45 seconds left in the game. Why is he not held to the same standards as Artest? Why are fans not held to the same standards? This is what pisses me off: people are picking on Artest in this situation because of his history.

Throwing a beer at someone is assault.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d030.htm

This another thing that, again, I find annoying. Becoming a professional athlete shouldn't take away from your rights, IMO.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: aplefka
I hope this thread gets locked today. Way too many idiots are posting in it. Basically, this is how I've read it.

MY ARGUMENT IS THE BEST YOUR'S IS WRONG AND I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS FOR NO REASON!!1!!1

No, your argument is wrong because mine is right and I'm gonna throw in a "Ron Artest is a pussy!" just for the heck of it.

And it just keeps going on and on. Seriously, all the noobs to the NBA as well as just the idiots of society need to leave this thread.

no u shud leav kthxbye

I'm not a "noob to the NBA" or an "idiot." You don't like the thread, well "get the fudge out."

Although I do agree, this debate is going nowhere. There is no right and wrong because we all have different morals, I guess.

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
The foul was not hard at all

Originally posted by: iamme
it was a flagrant foul. there was no play on the ball and it was unsportsman-like.

Ben Wallace is a big guy, it takes a pretty good shot to knock him down.

also you completely fail to mention the timing of the foul. it was unsportsman-like for him to foul Ben at that point in the game. the game was decided and there was absolutely no need for the foul.

finally, when you take into account Artest's history of flagrant fouls, unsportsman-like actions, and suspensions, you see a pattern of behavior. you can not deny that Artest has a history of getting out of control.

not that i condone Ben's retaliation (btw, there was a report on espnnews that Ben contacted Artest to apologize), but i get peeved when people keep saying it wasn't that bad of a foul.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
The foul was not hard at all

Originally posted by: iamme
it was a flagrant foul. there was no play on the ball and it was unsportsman-like.

Ben Wallace is a big guy, it takes a pretty good shot to knock him down.

also you completely fail to mention the timing of the foul. it was unsportsman-like for him to foul Ben at that point in the game. the game was decided and there was absolutely no need for the foul.

finally, when you take into account Artest's history of flagrant fouls, unsportsman-like actions, and suspensions, you see a pattern of behavior. you can not deny that Artest has a history of getting out of control.

not that i condone Ben's retaliation (btw, there was a report on espnnews that Ben contacted Artest to apologize), but i get peeved when people keep saying it wasn't that bad of a foul.

It wasn't hard. It was dirty, for sure, but not NEARLY hard enough to warrant that kind of retaliation. That's all I'm saying there.

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

Originally posted by: iamme

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
The foul was not hard at all

Originally posted by: iamme
it was a flagrant foul. there was no play on the ball and it was unsportsman-like.

Ben Wallace is a big guy, it takes a pretty good shot to knock him down.

also you completely fail to mention the timing of the foul. it was unsportsman-like for him to foul Ben at that point in the game. the game was decided and there was absolutely no need for the foul.

finally, when you take into account Artest's history of flagrant fouls, unsportsman-like actions, and suspensions, you see a pattern of behavior. you can not deny that Artest has a history of getting out of control.

not that i condone Ben's retaliation (btw, there was a report on espnnews that Ben contacted Artest to apologize), but i get peeved when people keep saying it wasn't that bad of a foul.

It wasn't hard. It was dirty, for sure, but not NEARLY hard enough to warrant that kind of retaliation. That's all I'm saying there.

again, not that i condone retaliation, but a foul doesn't have to be a hard one to warrant retaliation, imo.

what about undercutting someone when they jump for a rebound? definitely dirty, but not a hard impact foul. also, jumping under someone when they shoot in an effort to cause them to sprain their ankle. again, very dirty but not a hard impact foul.

with regards to what you said above, i agree this "debate" is going nowhere.

 

[iamme]

btw, if you think this is beating a dead horse, check out any NBA-related forum

they had to completly lock the Detroit Pistons, Indiana Pacers, and General Forums at this site: realgm.com because things got out of control after the game

 

[kevman]

as a side to this, anyone remember some other NBA brawls?

only other bad ones I can think of are back in '93 Knicks at Suns, Greg Anthony comes off the bench in street clothes and sucker punches Kevin Johnson during a melee.

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: kevman
as a side to this, anyone remember some other NBA brawls?

only other bad ones I can think of are back in '93 Knicks at Suns, Greg Anthony comes off the bench in street clothes and sucker punches Kevin Johnson during a melee.

Famous fan/player brawls

 

[aplefka]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

Originally posted by: aplefka
I hope this thread gets locked today. Way too many idiots are posting in it. Basically, this is how I've read it.

MY ARGUMENT IS THE BEST YOUR'S IS WRONG AND I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS FOR NO REASON!!1!!1

No, your argument is wrong because mine is right and I'm gonna throw in a "Ron Artest is a pussy!" just for the heck of it.

And it just keeps going on and on. Seriously, all the noobs to the NBA as well as just the idiots of society need to leave this thread.

no u shud leav kthxbye

I'm not a "noob to the NBA" or an "idiot." You don't like the thread, well "get the fudge out."

Although I do agree, this debate is going nowhere. There is no right and wrong because we all have different morals, I guess.

Why should I have to leave when the posts I've made have been at least somewhat thought provocative (save the last one)? If you read this, there is maybe 6-8 pages of material that is actually original or a new view on it. It's all been discussed and argued and debated so many times now that it's like trench warfare... neither side will move forward.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

Throwing a beer at someone is assault.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d030.htm

This another thing that, again, I find annoying. Becoming a professional athlete shouldn't take away from your rights, IMO.

Read your link

Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances.

If someone throws beer on you and walks away you are not allowed to hit them.
Self-defense is allowed to stop a crime, not retaliate against a crime already committed.
If someone throws a beer on you and you have reason to believe that they are about to remain the aggressor and cause you bodily harm then you have the right to hit them.

 

[herkulease]

espn is report artest is done for the season 72 games.

oneal 25 games
jackson, 30 games
ben wallace , 6 games
billups, 1 game,
reggie miller, 1 game

2 other paceers got 5 and two other pistons got 1 game.

Appeal time.

 

[BRObedoza]

agree with the suspensions but damn, artest is done for the season.

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: herkulease
espn is report artest is done for the season 72 games.

oneal 25 games
jackson, 30 games
ben wallace , 6 games
billups, 1 game,
reggie miller, 1 game

2 other paceers got 5 and two other pistons got 1 game.

Appeal time.

interesting. i suspected more 1 game suspensions for most of the Indiana and Detroit players who left the bench, even if they weren't involved in the altercation.

 

[Tylanner]

The whole season? Thats terrible, and wallace needs to get more than 6, his actions are the root of the problem.

 

[Anonemous]

oh well, guess the Christmas rematch is going to be heavily watched.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
I guess I understand that much, and the NBA will undoubtedly agree, but I don't think Artest, in this situation, acted any differently than most NBA players would have. Fact is, every NBA player that I have heard comment on this agrees with what Artest did and seems unhappy with how fans are allowed to treat players without risking retaliation. This is why I said it's unfortunate that it had to happen to Artest... He's already been through so much of this that, well, many people feel the same as you do.

No one is excusing the fan here. Fans who do throw things onto the court or at players are dealt with accordingly with by security. It shouldn't be for the player to dish it out to the offending fan. I personally hope the offending fan that threw the cup gets banned from the entering any sports arena. But to say that its understandable what Artest did is nonsense.

 

[iamme]

Originally posted by: Tylanner
The whole season? Thats terrible, and wallace needs to get more than 6, his actions are the root of the problem.

that's a bit misguided. while Ben's actions were the first, he wasn't responsible for the altercation between the fan and Artest. he shouldn't be penalized for that.

in the history of fight suspensions, 6 games is pretty harsh for what happened before the fans/pacers melee. of course, it looks like compared to Artest's season ending suspension.

 

[dr150]

Ron Artest suspended for REST OF SEASON!

PACERS:
Stephen Jackson: 30 games
Jermaine O'Neil: 25 games
Anthony Johnson: 5 games
Reggie Miller: 1 game

PISTONS:
Ben Wallace: 6 games
Chauncy Billups: 1 game
Elden Campbell: 1 game
Derrick Coleman: 1 game

 

[xenocyd3]

those suspensions are ridiculous

artest - 20 games
j.o. - 8 games
jackson - 5 games

ben wallace - 7 games