Plant Based Diets, better health?

[Torn Mind]

So I was looking at the sources.

A suboptimal diet, marked by insufficient consumption of fruits, vegetables, legumes, and whole grains, coupled with an excessive intake of meat (particularly red and processed), salt, refined grains and sugar, has been shown to notably elevate both mortality rates and disability-adjusted life years. Over time, these dietary choices have led to a concerning increase in health-related issues [1, 2].

But this is what source 2 says...
It only points out the sources of funding...


And phrases in source 1 do not exactly match the umbrella study's words

Findings​

In 2017, 11 million (95% uncertainty interval [UI] 10–12) deaths and 255 million (234–274) DALYs were attributable to dietary risk factors. High intake of sodium (3 million [1–5] deaths and 70 million [34–118] DALYs), low intake of whole grains (3 million [2–4] deaths and 82 million [59–109] DALYs), and low intake of fruits (2 million [1–4] deaths and 65 million [41–92] DALYs) were the leading dietary risk factors for deaths and DALYs globally and in many countries. Dietary data were from mixed sources and were not available for all countries, increasing the statistical uncertainty of our estimates.

or

. Although sodium, sugar, and fat have been the main focus of diet policy debate in the past two decades,
27
,
28
our assessment shows that the leading dietary risk factors for mortality are diets high in sodium, low in whole grains, low in fruit, low in nuts and seeds, low in vegetables, and low in omega-3 fatty acids; each accounting for more than 2% of global deaths. This finding suggests that dietary policies focusing on promoting the intake of components of diet for which current intake is less than the optimal level might have a greater effect than policies only targeting sugar and fat, highlighting the need for a comprehensive food system interventions to promote the production, distribution, and consumption of these foods across nations.

High consumption of red meat, processed meat, trans fat, and sugar-sweetened beverages were towards the bottom in ranking of dietary risks for deaths and DALYs for most high-population countries

They inability to cite accurately and as close to rote as possible condemns this study on two points
1. the facts are not settled
2. The integrity or bias of the writers are in serious question.

It's obvious to me that scientists truly are deficient in some respects compared to lawyers. At least with case law, something like trespass is repeated with the same elements rote for thousands of years without the fudging like what is present in this study.

 

[Torn Mind]

cheese is not plant based

It is vegetarian.

A Big mac only has .2 pounds of beef and a whole lot of bread, seed oil, tomato, lettuce, sesame seeds, and pickles, and with sugary drink and fries and thus more plant based than a pizza.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

cheese is not plant based

Plant based just says avoid meat, and be predominantly plant, which the dough is.

 

[mindless1]

cheese is not plant based

I beg to differ, one of my good friends worked at a cheese plant... before his triple bypass. I kid you not. Granted before he ever moved-to/worked there, his pre-existing diabetes was getting the better of him.

I keep meaning to complain to him about the misalignment of those damn "cut here" notches on the shredded packets. You cut there, yet they are still sealed because it's about 1/2 cm too high.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Plant based just says avoid meat, and be predominantly plant, which the dough is.

Which definition of "Plant Based" says that?

There is the looser definition of Plant based, which means based on Plants, not animal products, and cheese is definitely an animal product.

There is WFPB, which tightens things up considerably to eliminate processed foods like oil and sugar, white flour, oreos, etc...

Only if you get down to sleazy marketing department of some corporations do you get "Plant Based" that slips in dairy and eggs...

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Which definition of "Plant Based" says that?

There is the looser definition of Plant based, which means based on Plants, not animal products, and cheese is definitely an animal product.

There is WFPB, which tightens things up considerably to eliminate processed foods like oil and sugar, white flour, oreos, etc...

Only if you get down to sleazy marketing department of some corporations do you get "Plant Based" that slips in dairy and eggs...

-This one, from earlier in the thread. Not sure the source (Forks over Knives?), but there must a reason for the distinction between "no" and "avoid"

 

[Torn Mind]

The issue with plant based is that "based" has numerous senses.

Even changing the noun following Plant-based can change the definition used.

A plant-based milk, even a non-vegan can understand it's basically no animal stuff.

But a plant-based diet, the ordinary human understand "based" in the that plants are the primary constituent of diet, not that it is the sole exclusive component of diet.

As such, plant-based operates as a sanitized code term for "pure vegan" in vegan circles while looking reasonable to non-vegans.
And because it is ambiguous, humans gonna human and cause much spilling of ink and much mental warfare over the constant changing of the sense of the term "plant-based".

It's easy to tell the predatory vegan from the ordinary person because plant based diet, when not colored by passions of quasi-religion, is understood as primarily eating plants, not solely eating plants.

based can refer to being a foundation for something. A house's foundation is concrete often. A legal case's foundation is evidence. But the house's framing is often wood. And lawyers pull at jury's heartstrings in non-evidenced based manners to secure a conviction. It is this sense that is appropriate for the term "plant-based diet".

 

[pmv]

Most of what I eat comes from plants. (Chemical plants count, yes?)

 

[mindless1]

Plant based just says avoid meat, and be predominantly plant, which the dough is.

Okay but if you avoid meat, it's even more important to make your carbs count to get plant based protein without consuming an excessive amount. Cheese is a good source of protein but not so much the saturated fat or sodium.

 

[Heartbreaker]

-This one, from earlier in the thread. Not sure the source (Forks over Knives?), but there must a reason for the distinction between "no" and "avoid"

View attachment 99247

The difference between No and Avoid is the difference between Vegans and normal people. For Vegans it's more like religious stricture, where you get excommunicated for violating. While those eating plant based are avoiding animal products it for health reasons, but no one is going to excommunicate you for eating an animal product.

But that doesn't mean animal products are suddenly "plant based" when talking about specific food. It just means people eating plant based aren't zealots, like Vegans.

It's really simple. To be "plant based" food should come from plants, not animals.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

The difference between No and Avoid is the difference between Vegans and normal people. For Vegans it's more like religious stricture, where you get excommunicated for violating. While those eating plant based are avoiding animal products it for health reasons, but no one is going to excommunicate you for eating an animal product.

But that doesn't mean animal products are suddenly "plant based" when talking about specific food. It just means people eating plant based aren't zealots, like Vegans.

It's really simple. To be "plant based" food should come from plants, not animals.

-I'm pretty sure it means the foundation of your diet should be derived from plants.

Some meat/dairy/whatever from time to time is fine, but it should not be part of every meal and when it is it should be the minority portion on your plate.

 

[Heartbreaker]

-I'm pretty sure it means the foundation of your diet should be derived from plants.

Some meat/dairy/whatever from time to time is fine, but it should not be part of every meal and when it is it should be the minority portion on your plate.

There was a link to where that picture came from:

The Beginner's Guide to a Whole-Food, Plant-Based Diet

Kickstart your plant-based journey with Forks Over Knives' beginner's guide. Click here to learn the essentials and discover delicious, healthy recipes.

www.forksoverknives.com

A whole-food, plant-based diet is based on the following principles:
”Whole foods”: Natural foods that are not heavily processed. That means whole, unrefined, or minimally refined ingredients.
“Plant-based”: Food that comes from plants and is
free of animal ingredients such as meat, milk, eggs, or honey.

The also have hundreds of recipes, and AFAICT absolutely ZERO of them have any animal products in them:

Recipes

Are you looking for delicious vegan recipes to satisfy your appetite and cravings? Click here to access tasty and nutritious recipes you can enjoy guilt-free!

www.forksoverknives.com

Basically WFPB is Vegan compliant food. It's just not coming at it from the same perspective.

Vegans are philosophically avoiding animal products, from an animal welfare approach first.

WFPB adherents are avoiding animal food products, from a health first approach.

 

[Torn Mind]

Vegans have a fallacy and contradiction fetish.

 

[WelshBloke]

I get the feeling that some of you guys overthink things to the extent that the original point gets lost.

 

[WilliamM2]

I get the feeling that some of you guys overthink things to the extent that the original point gets lost.

That's because you are just a lay person.

 

[WelshBloke]

That's because you are just a lay person.

I am indeed! Unlike all the other highly qualified experts posting in this thread!

 

[Heartbreaker]

I get the feeling that some of you guys overthink things to the extent that the original point gets lost.

Overthinking is trying to make a convoluted argument to include "Cheese", as being plant based...

It should be obvious that plant based, means made out of plants, not dairy/eggs/meat. Sheesh.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

There was a link to where that picture came from:

The Beginner's Guide to a Whole-Food, Plant-Based Diet

Kickstart your plant-based journey with Forks Over Knives' beginner's guide. Click here to learn the essentials and discover delicious, healthy recipes.

www.forksoverknives.com

The also have hundreds of recipes, and AFAICT absolutely ZERO of them have any animal products in them:

Recipes

Are you looking for delicious vegan recipes to satisfy your appetite and cravings? Click here to access tasty and nutritious recipes you can enjoy guilt-free!

www.forksoverknives.com

Basically WFPB is Vegan compliant food. It's just not coming at it from the same perspective.

Vegans are philosophically avoiding animal products, from an animal welfare approach first.

WFPB adherents are avoiding animal food products, from a health first approach.

- Not to dwell and derail the topic based on my tongue in cheek remark, but it really sounds like a distinction without a difference.

"Plant Based Diet" is how to repackage and resell veganism now that the word vegan has become synonymous with "disordered eating with various other mental comorbidities".

I have no beef (pun fully intended) with either veganism/vegetarianism/plant based diet, I'm of Indian descent and grew up eating plenty of delicious vegetarian/vegan foods, and even now likely eat way less meat than the average American.

That said, Indian food isn't necessarily healthy, despite often being either vegetarian or vegan which has always made me skeptical of these claims.

 

[Heartbreaker]

"Plant Based Diet" is how to repackage and resell veganism now that the word vegan has become synonymous with "disordered eating with various other mental comorbidities".

If that's the case, then it obviously wouldn't include animal products, which is our point of disagreement.

That said, Indian food isn't necessarily healthy, despite often being either vegetarian or vegan which has always made me skeptical of these claims.

You can eat a crappy Vegan diet. Oreos and French fries are Vegan...

WFPB is kind of the health oriented wing of Vegan diets.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

If that's the case, then it obviously wouldn't include animal products, which is our point of disagreement.

- There is no disagreement, I simply didn't realize Plant Based Diet was repackaged veganism.

I was reading "Plant based diet" as veggies should form the core of the meal as opposed to more traditional meat-centric diets (where veggies are a side/afterthought), but were not exclusionary of meat or animal based products.

Seems I was mistaken.

 

[Torn Mind]

Veganese and English use the same words but different meanings.

Make love with a dictionary before talking with vegans.

 

[balloonshark]

Vegans have a fallacy and contradiction fetish.

Dude. You're 6 foot tall, 125lbs and base your diet solely on your dental health. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[WelshBloke]

That said, Indian food isn't necessarily healthy, despite often being either vegetarian or vegan which has always made me skeptical of these claims.

Western restaurant Indian food isn't really Indian food. There's a ton of butter and cream in. I used to hang out in Wolverhampton a bit and there's lots of Indian food places there that do the same food as they did at home and it was a lot lighter. Lots of pulses and lentils. Not much fat.

 

[Torn Mind]

Dude. You're 6 foot tall, 125lbs and base your diet solely on your dental health. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

I have to engage in linguistic sophistry in the first place in order to be a hypocrite.

The truth is that the SAD diet is sugar and starch-based. Barely any food is NOT sweetened or starched up. From sugar, HFCS, breading, maltodextrin. Simple "word algebra" makes it easy to read an ingredients list and see it is the white powders of choice to increase demand for eating. And I'm using "based" in the foundation sense of the term.
Mr. Heartbreaker savagely uses the phrase "carb-phobia" despite carbs being present in all "processed foods". In fact, I even bought Pop-tarts to preserve as evidence the numerous synonymous for "sugar" or glucose present in the ingredients list.

The very contradiction between photograph and description betrays linguistic predation. Avoid is not the commonly understand "try to stay away but sometimes things are avoidable", but rather synonymous with "no". Well in that case, they should have been direct about it and simply put "no" instead of needless complicating the picture.

The dental-focused diet ideally go as unsweetened as possible, but because I'm both genetically and environmentaly starch-favoring, I have to cave to a desire for fruit or lapsing for breads/pasta/rice.
In fact, I can easily comply with avoiding eggs because I generally "hate" them, probably to my detriment for my life.

I look at food as a matrix of chemicals. It's coldly and quite mechanical. It's just that I also consider nature a better chemist and that nutritionists haven't studied all the chemicals in food; just the ones "necessary". Where the vegan is most hypocritical, is hyping the "other chemicals" in plants yet ignoring the possibility of such other chemicals in non-plant matter.

The line between proper science and circular reasoning is not clear with posts like in the OP. Once actually read, some of the selected studies seem to suggest that fish eating can produce favorable results as well. If a citer can't help but censor what he cites, and adds statements not stated in the original source, then it becomes clear when someone cares about facts versus fervently advocating at all costs.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Western restaurant Indian food isn't really Indian food. There's a ton of butter and cream in. I used to hang out in Wolverhampton a bit and there's lots of Indian food places there that do the same food as they did at home and it was a lot lighter. Lots of pulses and lentils. Not much fat.

- Bruh my mom made plenty of homecooked Indian food. There is plenty of butter/oil in that too, and its usually served with a mountain of starch as well (pile of white rice, roti/puri/naan/etc). If it isn't bean/lentile based, its a bit lacking in protein too, so you end up eating A LOT because you're just not getting the satiety signals.

Indian restaurant food (at least here in the US) is also heavily influenced by Punjabi food (which tends to be richer in general), and most of the crap you eat at those Indian lunch buffet places comes out of a plastic bag and is batch cooked at a central distro facility.