Platoon defies orders in Iraq

[amish]

everyone talks about the outdated equipment and how it is all one persons fault for it. what about the people before him that also knew that the equipment was junk but still cut funding?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I spent my live is a country that honors and rewards individual initiative and strong willed independence and I became a Republican because of the reward for being a real man. I demand and expect to be defended from terrorist in my business pursuits by the non-thinking drones of an army of robots. Court martial their asses and throw them in jail forever. I will brook no excuses; this lack of discipline scares the hell out of me and makes me piss in my pants.

:thumbsup:

Somebody find a time machine quick! We need these armchair generals to go back to 1917 and order millions of young men to their death in the trenches!


(Star wars parrallel of the day: Cheney has been visiting Japan to create an army of clones. When there aren't enough troops for Iraq there will be no draft but the clones will come out in force. After a long and exhausting clone war, with the left weakened, Cheney will declare himself Supreme Chancellor or Emperor and abolish the senate. Soon after he will start creating a massive...)

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Engineer

Prayers to all our troops over there without proper support or equipment.

Well, he did vote for the "proper support" and "equipment," just before he voted against it. Thanks, Hanoi John.

So you're saying that vote was defeated???

You're also saying it's been President Kerry the last 4 years and he sent the Troops to Iraq unprepared for this long drawn out battle???

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Todd33
When are you signing up for the infantry tough guy?

Buh-buh I served in Grenada maaaan. It was CRAZY over there!

You're obviously being facetious, but are you really prior service?

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
That story is all over the place. It sounds like some reservists are confused about the difference between wartime rules and non-wartime rules.

Suicide mission? For who, the folks who don't get the fuel that was supposed to be delivered to them?

Deadlined doesn't necessarily mean you can't use the vehicle if you have to in an emergency, such as needing it for a delivery in combat. I drove a deadlined 5-ton truck because it had to be done. I deadlined the truck earlier myself because there was some oil coming out of the air tank drain along with the normal water when I inspected it. That is a deadline defect, but it doesn't mean the truck is suddenly unusable or unsafe.

They drove the trucks to another base and back on Wednesday, according to the story, so how bad could the trucks have been?

What soldier doesn't know the penalty for hitting his commander?

I will need to hear a lot more info before I can tell what is going on with this story.

I agree... There is a reason that they are needed. There was a group/unit that needed this fuel. This reminds me of the movie... In The Army (Paulie Shore)... YEAH!!! I'LL BE A WATERBOY!!! HOW DANGEROUS COULD THAT BE!!!. You signed up, You got the bennies, now serve or get out dishonorably.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Engineer
Here is a to everyone playing e-soldier today.

Really. Disgusting :|

Prayers to all our troops over there without proper support or equipment.

That comment wasn't made to the troops, only to the back and forth bickering on "tough guy on the PC" stuff. Our troops deserve the best treatment and supplies anywhere. Look at the ABC report last night on the sh|tty treatment that these guys have gotten because they were injured and couldn't complete their tour of duty...makes my blood boil! :|

(I wrote both of my Senators and the Whitehouse over that one).

I couldn't agree more on Prayers for our troops and that they are being let down on support and equipment!

 

[cpumaster]

This is a very hard question, pls don't simple give the troops label based on your party/ideology affiliation. I think troops shouldn't refuse order when given, especially in the war situation/arena, but then again, if they're not properly equiped for the mission and being given absurd order based on poor judgement & decision, shouldn't they have the right to refuse that? After all, you'd condemn any suicide or assisted suicide attempt, and if the mission resemble that, shouldn't they refuse to carry out such mission?
It's a very fine line between obeying orders and being responsible for the live of every soldiers and fellow soldiers who depended on you.
I just hope they fine a better solution for that particular situation, because I think court martialing, dismissing, or jailed them would not be very ideal, especially since we have shortage of troops in Iraq, especially in the supply convoy dept.
Maybe assigned them to other area? Or just keep them off duty until better equipment arrived? Or better yet, sent in more troops to guard the convoy. After all if they got ambush, the supplies wouldn't get to the front line troops and it will be double waste of live, manpower, time, etc

 

[Infohawk]

There are several situations where not obeying orders should be respected.
- wrong war: if you are fighting an unjust war (e.g., Iraq) you should just stop fighting or, if everyone is trying to leave, fight until you can get out safely.
- absurd command: if you are beign sent to your death for no good reason (e.g., stupid commanders in WWI stubbornly sending people over the trenches when they knew it wouldn't work).
- unethical command: if you are being asked to target civilians and the like (e.g., clear out that hamlet, nevermind that it's all women and children, it will teach them a lesson).

In this case we have the wrong war and maybe absurd command. These guys did the right thing.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I'm torn on this one, absent more specific facts.

As a general rule, an order is presumed to be lawful, and a military member disobeys at his own peril. It wasn't really this platoon's job to decide whether or not the order made sense; it was their job to follow it.

We're getting the story that the fuel they were to deliver was contaminated, but that word comes from one of the suspects, and there are two or more sides to every story.

If that was really the case, and the order was to transport contaminated, useless fuel, using redlined vehicles, that reflects very badly on the people issuing the order, but the platoon can still be held responsible for their choice to disobey.

The larger issue of whether we have an adequate number of troops, with adequate materiel, is troubling indeed.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Disobeying a direct order is a very serious charge. Failing to follow orders because doing so may put you in peril is not a good defense in itself. The burden of proof will fall on the soldiers (as it should) to show that their orders would have placed them in a situation far beyond the normal expectation of duty and service. I think it is unlikely that they will be able to do so. If they cannot, they should be punished.

And Infohawk, it has never been an option for soldiers to pass judgement on whether a war is "just" or not.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa

And Infohawk, it has never been an option for soldiers to pass judgement on whether a war is "just" or not.

You always have the option, whether you go to Canada or go to jail, you have an option.

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGoebbelsxxxx

Well, he did vote for the "proper support" and "equipment," just before he voted against it. Thanks, Hanoi John.

You need some new material.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa

And Infohawk, it has never been an option for soldiers to pass judgement on whether a war is "just" or not.

You always have the option, whether you go to Canada or go to jail, you have an option.

Oh...so is this a no?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Well, he did vote for the "proper support" and "equipment," just before he voted against it. Thanks, Hanoi John.

And Bush was going to VETO the bill before he passed it.

 

[cpumaster]

As a military strategist, I'd always prefer the troops follow order without question regardless, but as humanitarian, I could understand the dilemma of the soldiers, because they're still a human however much training you put into them, and the number one instinct of a human is to stay alive...
it's the job of the commander to make good judgment and to question their own order, not the troops. I think this would seriously raised question on the fitness of the commander giving the order. Is there any commotion going on regarding who gave such order?

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: Chadder007

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
When my son returned in Apri,l he told me that over 3/4 of the equipment that they took and brought back were junk -
unreliable, worn out, and were set to be scrapped or salvaged for spare parts.

There was more than one time that while in transit their vehicles broke down leaving them stranded between safe havens,
and they had to wait out a dispatch of a vehicle to finish towing them to a point of refuge.

You can thank Clinton for that also....letting our equipment waste away during his years as president. Also leaving us with a tanking economy to which we would have trouble equiping them after he left office.

WRONG !

The equipment that they took over was NEW, they got it in the months leading to the war offensive.
The maintenance - lack of parts, and the conditions were what trashed the equipment.
Clinton wasn't over there breaking all their gear, those 'Hummers' for example -are pieces of garbage -
unreliable and prone to failure moreso than the Iraqi's vehicle of choice - Toyota Pickups.

The economy tanked under Bushes watch, not Bubbas.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: arsbanned
Hang in there guys, some of us here at home are behind you.

When are you signing up for the infantry tough guy?

Hey! He's tough sitting at his computer! :disgust:

Says the guy who is typing on his computer.

The difference is, I'm not all gung ho to get GIs killed. See? It's easy if you try.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Infohawk
They are heros.

They are cowards, and you are an idiot, and have no idea what your talking about. When poeple disobey orders, they endanger the lives of everyone else. That fuel needed to be where it was headed there for a reason.

Protesting is one thing, but when you have a job to do, in a place like that., you do it. They will be tried and convicted, and I hope everyone of them court martialed, losing the GI bill that they signed up for hoping they would get a free ride.

If this was a justified war, I'd agree with you. Since it's not, I don't.
Case in point, Vietnam. Just a few years ago, one of the architects of THAT particualr quagmire, Robert McNamara, said the whole thing was a big mistake. So, all the guys who had died or been maimed or crippled, they fought for what again?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk

Originally posted by: Chadder007

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
When my son returned in Apri,l he told me that over 3/4 of the equipment that they took and brought back were junk -
unreliable, worn out, and were set to be scrapped or salvaged for spare parts.

There was more than one time that while in transit their vehicles broke down leaving them stranded between safe havens,
and they had to wait out a dispatch of a vehicle to finish towing them to a point of refuge.

You can thank Clinton for that also....letting our equipment waste away during his years as president. Also leaving us with a tanking economy to which we would have trouble equiping them after he left office.

WRONG !

The equipment that they took over was NEW, they got it in the months leading to the war offensive.
The maintenance - lack of parts, and the conditions were what trashed the equipment.
Clinton wasn't over there breaking all their gear, those 'Hummers' for example -are pieces of garbage -
unreliable and prone to failure moreso than the Iraqi's vehicle of choice - Toyota Pickups.

The economy tanked under Bushes watch, not Bubbas.

There's no point in replying to Mr. Snipe-and-Run. He won't be back to this thread. But, if he *should* return, you won't get an answer to your reply.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I spent my live is a country that honors and rewards individual initiative and strong willed independence and I became a Republican because of the reward for being a real man. I demand and expect to be defended from terrorist in my business pursuits by the non-thinking drones of an army of robots. Court martial their asses and throw them in jail forever. I will brook no excuses; this lack of discipline scares the hell out of me and makes me piss in my pants.

I think they make a pill for that now...

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: DonVito
I'm torn on this one, absent more specific facts.

As a general rule, an order is presumed to be lawful, and a military member disobeys at his own peril. It wasn't really this platoon's job to decide whether or not the order made sense; it was their job to follow it.

We're getting the story that the fuel they were to deliver was contaminated, but that word comes from one of the suspects, and there are two or more sides to every story.

If that was really the case, and the order was to transport contaminated, useless fuel, using redlined vehicles, that reflects very badly on the people issuing the order, but the platoon can still be held responsible for their choice to disobey.

The larger issue of whether we have an adequate number of troops, with adequate materiel, is troubling indeed.

:thumbsup: And DonVito (and cpumaster!) get the credit for the first intelligent replies to this entire thread.

Of course we don't want an army of unthinking drones who would mow down their own mothers if ordered to do so, but we also do not need grunts taking it upon themselves to decide which orders they will obey and which they will refuse based upon thier own limited knowledge of the larger situation. We need a lot more details on this before we can make any serious judgements here.



Edit: Credit where credit is due.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I spent my live is a country that honors and rewards individual initiative and strong willed independence and I became a Republican because of the reward for being a real man. I demand and expect to be defended from terrorist in my business pursuits by the non-thinking drones of an army of robots. Court martial their asses and throw them in jail forever. I will brook no excuses; this lack of discipline scares the hell out of me and makes me piss in my pants.

I think they make a pill for that now...

Crap, I just canceled medical coverage at my company. I couldn't afford to pay Edwards his millions.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

The mission was carried out by other soldiers from the 343rd,

I hope they made their run successfully. :beer:

CsG

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I spent my live is a country that honors and rewards individual initiative and strong willed independence and I became a Republican because of the reward for being a real man. I demand and expect to be defended from terrorist in my business pursuits by the non-thinking drones of an army of robots. Court martial their asses and throw them in jail forever. I will brook no excuses; this lack of discipline scares the hell out of me and makes me piss in my pants.

I think they make a pill for that now...

Crap, I just canceled medical coverage at my company. I couldn't afford to pay Edwards his millions.

Don't worry. I think it was ntdz yesterday that pointed out people don't get sick that often and so don't need insurance. No need to obsess over health care as he put it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
The mission was carried out by other soldiers from the 343rd,

I hope they made their run successfully. :beer:

CsG

Me too cause if they got their asses blown to bits is equipment unfit the moral and ethical issues of the case are gonna get really really hairy not to mention we don't wanna see anybody dead.