Please help me pick a mid-range digital camera

[Fardringle]

NOTE: I've added a poll so that those of you who don't want to type a response can still help me decide between the S2 and the FZ30.


I've done some research online and have been able to narrow some things down based on the specs I'm looking for in a camera, but I haven't been able to find a really good "shoot-out" to help me decide which one I want to get. I'm hoping you folks can give me suggestions, particularly personal experiences - both good and bad - that will help me narrow down the field even more.

I'm looking for a camera for around (or less than) $500. I can go a bit higher for something really worth the extra cost, but not much higher. I currently have an old Olympus D450Z that I love. It is only 1.3 megapixels but it takes extremely clear and color realistic pictures and I have been very pleased with it. The main problems are that it is very slow (as much as 10-15 seconds per shot or more with a fast SmartMedia card and twice that with a slow card) and it only has a 3x optical zoom and I'd really like something with a stronger zoom. High resolution will help for larger prints but it's not as critical as overall picture quality and zoom length.

My "needs" are as follows in order of importance to me.
1) Picture quality (realistic picture is far more important than total resolution)
2) Zoom length (I really want a camera with at least 10x optical zoom since I do a lot of wildlife and sporting events photos.)
3) Capture and cycle speed (Shots per second and cycle time between individual shots. I don't need excessive speed, but don't want to wait multiple seconds between shots, again because of the wildlife and sports shots I do.)
4) Image stabilization. (This can make a huge difference for fast action and long zoom shots without a tripod, but I can do without it if the rest of the package is good enough.)
5) Uses AA batteries. (This isn't critical, but I have dozens of 2300 and 2500 mAh rechargables already and would like to use them if I can, and having lots of spare sets available makes this a big bonus for me over internal Li-Ion battery packs.)
6) Uses SD memory cards. (Again, not critical, but I'd like to be able to use the same cards from my camera in my PDA and it only takes SD/MMC cards.)
7) Metal tripod threading. (I do a lot of tripod shots, especially for long zoom stuff so I need a mount that won't strip or break. Solid plastic is acceptable but I'd prefer good metal threads.)


Some of the options I've come up with so far with what I believe to be the relevant specs are listed below. They are listed alphabetically and the dollar amount is the range of prices that show up on Pricewatch currently. I am very familiar with the quality of Canon, Fuji, and Minolta film cameras but have not ever used any of their digital products, and the only Panasonic products I have used are my portable CD player and set-top VCR.

I am not limited to only these choices so I am definitely open to additional suggestions, but the $500 budget is pretty firm. I'd LOVE to get a Rebel XT but even on sale at ~$750 that's just more than I can afford to spend.



Canon PowerShot S2 IS: ($433-$500)
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/s2is.html
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/S2IS/S2ISA.HTM
5.0 megapixel
12x optical, 4x digital (36-432mm equivalent)
Image stabilization
1.5 seconds per shot constant at max resolution
1.4 seconds per shot second constant at low resolution
2.3 frames per second in continuous burst mode (unknown frame limit)
0.6 second shutter lag with full auto focus
0.08 second shutter lag with pre-focus
Uses SD/MMC memory card
4 AA batteries
Plastic case, plastic tripod mount


Fuji FinePix S5100: ($285-$431)
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/fuji_s5100.html
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/S5100/S51A.HTM
4.0 megapixel
10x optical, 1.4 digital (37-370mm equivalent)
No image stabilization
1.9 seconds per shot constant at max resolution
1.8 seconds per shot constant at low resolution
3.45 frames per second up to 3 frames total in burst mode
1.23 frames per second up to 40 frames total in continuous burst mode
0.8 second shutter lag with full auto focus
0.1 second shutter lag with pre-focus
Uses xD picture card
4 AA batteries
Plastic case, metal tripod mount


Konica Minolta DiMAGE Z3 ($269-$500)
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/KMZ3/Z3A.HTM
4.0 megapixel
12x optical, 4x digital (35-420mm equivalent)
Anti-shake feature
1.1 seconds per shot constant at max resolution
1.3 seconds per shot constant at low resolution
2.2 frames per second up to 6 frames total in burst mode.
10 frames per second up to 15 frames total, new burst available after 2 seconds, in Ultra burst mode (1280x1024 resolution).
0.3 second shutter lag with full auto focus
0.1 second shutter lag with pre-focus
Uses SD/MMC memory card
4 AA batteries
Plastic case, plastic tripod mount


Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ20 ($394-$550)
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/FZ20/FZ20A.HTM
5.0 megapixel
12x optical, 4x digital zoom (36-432mm equivalent) Leica lens
Image stabilization
Low light LED focus assist
0.9 seconds per shot constant at max resolution
0.6 seconds per shot constant at low resolution
3 frames per second up to 4 frames total in burst mode
30 fps movie mode
0.5 second shutter lag with full auto focus
0.1 second shutter lag with pre-focus
Uses SD/MMC memory card
Internal Li-Ion rechargeable battery
Metal case, metal tripod mount


Thanks in advance for any advice you can give!

 

[Cheesetogo]

I have the FZ-15 which is basically the same as the FZ-20 but a megapixel less, and I really like it. It's a much nicer camera to hold than the DiMAGE Z3, and takes better photos. Part of the case is made out of plastic, but it's very sturdy and does not feel cheap at all. The IS feature is really nice and works pretty well. The zoom is very nice, it's somthing like a 430mm film equivlant. The battery lasts a long time, although if you want extras they are about 40 dollars, kind of expensive compared to rechargable AAs. The burst mode is really nice at 4fps, and at 2fps you can take a very large amount of pictures.

There is are only two things I don't like about this camera, the first being that images are very noisy at anything more than iso 100, which makes it difficult to take good low-light pictures without a flash and/or tripod. Although most cameras in this price range have bad perfomance at a higher ISO, so you can't really count it against it too much.

The second thing is the electronic viewfinder, which is basically just an lcd in the viewfinder. However, pretty much all ultra-zoom cameras have one, so until you get into the dslrs your pretty much stuck with a EVF.

The fuji is a pretty good camera, but not as good as the fz-20, and it also uses xd media and has a pretty cheap case (though probably above average). The canon better than the Fuji, but it has a small, plastic case and I would pick the fz-20 over it.

Out of the cameras you picked, I would definitely go with the FZ-20. If your looking for some more reivews, http://www.dcresource.com/ is a very good site for reviews, and the people on the forums are pretty good at helping you pick out a camera.

Edit: if your looking for fast write speeds between shots, get a 60x SD card. With a 60x card, I would guess I can take another picture within half a second after the first.

Edit2: You may want to look into the Fuji S9000. Its a bit more than your budget and doesn't have as long of a focal length (300mm equivalant), but it has better ISO performance and goes up to 1600. It does not have IS, but has "Anti-blur" which automatically ups the iso letting you take shots with a higher shutter speed.

 

[jlbenedict]

Panasonic FZ20
Excellent camera for the price. A few reputable dealers have it under $400 now..

Battery life is pretty good.. better than I expected, for a proprietary battery.. probably at least twice the life of a good set of nimh AA's

 

[Fardringle]

Looks like two votes so far for the Panasonic FZ20. I really would like to be able to use the mass of NiMH rechargeables I already have, but the camera does use SD memory cards which meets one of my two 'bottom' requirements.

It also seems to be very fast and has a 12x optical zoom. I still can't seem to find any really good sample pictures for comparison with other cameras, though.


Any other input and suggestions or should I go with what is the unanimous vote so far?


Thanks.

 

[jlbenedict]

the FZ20 also meets your 10X optical zoom requirements as well..

If you are set on using your AA's... you may as well go with the Canon..
The Canon is a good camera as well... From user reviews and opinions, the Canon has excellent Macro mode, and video clip capture mode..

 

[SynthDude2001]

I've had the S1 IS for a year, I love it and won't be upgrading any time in the near future. Picture quality is great, 10x optical zoom is great, high quality 640x480 video is great, image stabilization is great, the fact that it uses inexpensive microdrives (I use a 5GB) is great... Low-light focusing and focusing at full zoom in low indoor lighting aren't the greatest, but I hear that those have been addressed on the S2 (and from my limited testing of the S2 in a store setting, focusing did seem a lot quicker overall).

I think the S2 IS would be a great all around camera if you're buying right now, based on my experiences. Resolution is higher, zoom is a bit longer, and it uses SD cards (this is actually a negative mark for me, but it's what you're looking for). If you have any questions about my experience with my camera I'd be glad to answer...

Edit: I'm 99.999% sure that my tripod mount is metal, not plastic (I haven't used it though). I'm not quite sure why they'd have changed that on the S2, but then again they did "downgrade" the memory card type (for my use )

Edit 2: Noticed that you mentioned battery life...I have three sets of NiMH AA batteries that I use (two in the camera bag and one in the camera), battery life is really great in my opinion. I can easily get 350-400 shots on one set of batteries (if I'm remembering my usage from my vacation correctly). The most I've EVER used is two full sets of batteries in one day, and that was with well over 500 pictures, lots of video, and keeping the camera on a lot just walking around. I changed to my third set of batteries basically at the very end of the day. I believe all three sets I'm using now are 2300mAh.

 

[imported_Nacelle]

If you already have the memory, go to a local store that sells the cameras. Ask if you can take some pictures on your memory card. Take them home and find out which is the best. You may have to go back and forth a couple of times. Some cameras will have to format the card, others don't care.

 

[paulw86]

check out Canon A610

 

[Cheesetogo]

Originally posted by: paulw86
check out Canon A610

Uhmm... that's not going to fufill many of his requirements.

When you end up buying the media for the card, don't skimp and buy MMC or Microdrive, as the are much slower than SD and Compact Flash. I wouldn't choose the canon over the panasonic just because of the batteries - at first I really hated the idea of the propietary battery but I don't really mind it anymore because it lasts a long time without being recharged, easily a day if you turn it off everytime your finsished with it.

 

[theMan]

another vote for the FZ20.

 

[rbV5]

I bought the Canon S1 IS for my son last Spring, NiMH battery life seems very good and I was concerned because my Sony has such good battery life, so nearly didn't go for the canon because of the batteries. Its turned out to ba non-issue (actually handy because in a pinch you can get batterries anywhere)

Today, I wouldn't hesitate getting the S2 IS, particularly if you want to shoot a little video footage, the video capabilities of the canon are very impressive for a still camera. The IS makes shooting with 10x without a tripod very possible (likely the same for the 12x on the S2), where the 8x on my daughter's Olympus definately requires a tripod or a rest of some sort.

I've no opinions on the other models you mention.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

Originally posted by: theman
another vote for the FZ20.

For long shots outdoors another vote for the FZ20. If i went to the races more often
this is what my buy would have been. I bought a Canon G6.



Galvanized

 

[Fardringle]

I really appreciate all of the suggestions. Honestly, the Canon G2 and the Panasonic FZ20 were my two top choices out of everything I've been looking at for the past month or so (before posting here).

I would like to use AA NiMH batteries simply because I frequently go on trips for several days where there simply isn't any way to charge an internal battery so extra sets of NiMHs are handy. However, this isn't a deal killer for me, particularly if the image quality of the FZ20 is equal to or better than the Canon (the rest of the specs on the FZ20 are better, but image quality is the most important item and the one thing nobody's specs show).

Borrowing a camera from a local shop is a good suggestion. Unfortunately, the only good shop I know of around here only carries film cameras. I might be able to find samples of these two cameras at a Best Buy or something like that, but they definitely aren't going to let me try them out.

I'll look around and see what I can find.

 

[Cheesetogo]

Originally posted by: Fardringle

Borrowing a camera from a local shop is a good suggestion. Unfortunately, the only good shop I know of around here only carries film cameras. I might be able to find samples of these two cameras at a Best Buy or something like that, but they definitely aren't going to let me try them out.

I'll look around and see what I can find.

Best Buy usually has their cameras on counters with the little strings attached to them, so you should be able to try the cameras. If they don't have what your looking for, their usually pretty good about opening up a box and letting you try it.

Edit: Here is a gallery for the S2 and another gallery of the FZ-20. The pictures are of the same thing, so it should be easy to compare the image quality.

S2 Gallery

FZ-20 Gallery

You may want to take a look at the FZ-30, which is the newer version of the FZ-20.

 

[Pix3lDezigner]

I would recommend the FZ20 over any other camera in that range without a single hesitation. The superior Leica lens, and the F2.8 throughout the entire 12x optical zoom hands down make it the best choice. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.

 

[imported_Nacelle]

Here are a few pics from my Cannon Powershot A95. I reduced these to 1024x768 for the web. I choose this camera over the newer ones because it uses AA batteries. And uses Compact Flash memory that I already had. Great pictures too boot.
Flower
Water Fight
Hello Kitty
Baby

 

[Fardringle]

Thank you very much for the galleries, Cheesetogo. I'll take a close look at them as soon as I have a chance!

Your suggestion of the FZ30 is intriguing. It's a bit outside of my maximum budget, but it's a better looking camera physically (not a big deal, but the coolness factor does matter a little ) and sports 8megapixels instead of 5mp for the FZ20. I was hoping to end up under $500 total for the camera, batteries, and a fast big memory card or two. But, if the reliability, speed, and picture quality on the FZ30 are anything like its little brother, you might have just convinced me to dig into the Christmas present fund for an extra $100 over the going price for the FZ20.

 

[hg321]

Kodak Z740

 

[billandopus]

Canon S2 IS for me.

 

[Fardringle]

Well, I've done some more research and image comparisons on www.dcresource.com (thanks for the suggestion) and now I'm even more undecided than before.

The FZ30 looks like an awesome camera, except for two things:

Low light photos are horrid at anything higher than 80 ISO, and pictures taken at very close range in macro mode are grainy.

The manual zoom ring, extended zoom mode (as high as 19.1x optical zoom at 3 megapixel resolution), threaded lens for easy use of adapters, and metal case are all very great features but the poor low light and macro photography are hard to ignore. The improved movie mode is also nice but I have a good video camera already so that really doesn't matter to me. If all of my photos were going to be taken during the day, the FZ30 would be a definite pick for me. However, since I tend to take some wildlife photos in the late evening/dusk (since that's when most animals are out and active) this could be a problem for me. The fact that the proprietary LiIon battery costs $50 and I'd want to have at least one extra puts a damper on the budget as well.


I am very impressed with the Canon S2's macro mode and video modes and the overall picture quality appears to be just slightly better than the FZ20 and FZ30. It still has problems in low light but is a bit better than the FZ20 and FZ30. The defective (won't stay attached) lens cap, lack of manual focus/zoom rings, and reports of dead or hot pixel problems on the CCD concerns me.



This is mainly for my own reference but I'd like any input or suggestions you may have to this list since my initial impression (before my first post) and your comments make me feel that either the Canon S2 or Panasonic FZ20/FZ30 will be my choice, and if I go with Panasonic I'll probably go with the FZ30:

(These are not in order of importance, just a summary of features and problems in order of how I felt like ordering them. )

Canon S2:
Pros:
Excellent macro photos.
Good results at 12x zoom.
Excellent daylight photo clarity.
Uses SD memory cards.
Uses NiMH/AA batteries.
Extremely quiet zoom motor.
Pretty fast start-up time (about 1.2 seconds) considering the lens has to be extended)
Image stabilization.
Auto-focus assist lamp for low light focusing.
Great video mode and quality at 30fps.
Stereo microphone for high quality audio during video recording.
Bundled software allows complete control of the camera from the computer (including zoom and video recorded directly to the PC in real-time.
LCD is 115,000 pixes and flips out left and rotates.

Cons:
Decent but not spectacular shot speed (1.5 seconds per shot at max resolution).
Plastic case and tripod mount.
Grainy pictures in low light situations above 100 ISO.
Video mode takes a LOT of disk space.
Requires the use of an adapter ring to attach lens accessories and filters.
Moderate to poor red-eye reduction.
Has some mild purple fringing in low light and shadows. (Bundled software can remove it.)



Panasonic FZ30:
Pros:
REALLY great optical zoom options (up to 19.1x extended at 3megapixel resolution).
Solid metal, SLR-like case and metal tripod mount.
Manual focus and zoom rings on the lens.
Very quick start-up (less than 1 second since the lens is always extended).
Extremely fast photo speed (review says nearly 2.6 frames per second constant).
Image stabilization.
Auto-focus assist lamp for low light focusing.
Uses SD memory cards.
Lens is threaded for easy attachment of accessory lenses and filters.
High resolution LCD (235,000 pixels) that flips down and rotates.
Internal processor automatically removes purple fringing in shadows/low light.
Very good red-eye reduction.
Tripod mount is centered under the lens for better panorama use.

Cons:
Very grainy results above 80 ISO in low light situations.
Uses expensive proprietary LiIon batteries ($50 per battery).
Aperture is not locked at F2.8 throughout the zoom range. Max zoom is F3.7, which is probably part of the cause of the poor low light results.



Overall, the FZ30 has much stronger "Pros" for me such as the incredible zoom, manual focus and zoom, and the sturdier body, but it also has stronger "Cons" as well such as the lower quality low light and macro results and the use of expensive LiIon batteries. I really don't care at all about the video capabilities of either camera since I have a nice JVC video camera already, but it seems like both do well at this in case I ever want to take a quick video clip and don't have my JVC with me..


The bottom line (price-wise) is that based on the best prices listed on PriceGrabber.com at the moment the FZ30 right now would cost me about $640 total plus shipping ($540 for the camera, $50 for a second battery, and about $50 for a good 1GB card). The S2 would cost me about $510 plus shipping ($460 for the camera and about $50 for a 1GB card). The FZ30 is definitely a better camera overall, but I can't ignore the low light problems for a camera that will run me about $130 over my planned budget.

Bleh, I'm going to put up a poll and let you guys decide for me.

 

[Ken90630]

If it helps any, keep in mind that noise-reduction software is available should you decide to go with the FZ-30 (or any camera in this price range, for that matter). For some reason, the FZ-30 supposedly has worse low-light performance than the FZ-20, despite the fact it has a larger sensor. Go figure.

This thread is interesting to me because I'm in almost the exact same sitch as you. I've been looking at and reading up on digicams for months and can't seem to find one that has everything I need (that doesn't cost a king's ransom). I almost pulled the trigger on an FZ-20 or 30, but balked for the same reason as you: poor low light performance. Then I read about some noise reduction software and saw some examples of what it can do. Seriously, it can make a nice difference if the image isn't utterly ruined by extreme digital noise. I don't recall the name of the software off the top of my head, but that's prolly 'cuz it's late and I need to get some sleep. I think I read about it at DPreview or maybe Steve's Digicams a few months ago.

If you haven't checked it out already, DPreview.com is a highly regarded site. They seem to review just about every digicam out there, and there are good reviews of the FZ-20 and Canon IS cams. The FZ-30 is so new that I don't know if they have a review up yet; last time I checked (a month or two ago), they just had a 'preview' of it.

I got discouraged and gave up the search for awhile, but I need to resume it soon 'cuz I really do need to get a camera. If only Panasonic could resolve the noise issue (so that post-processing noise reduction wouldn't be necessary) with ISO settings over 100, I'd be all over the FZ-20 or 30. IIRC, the Canon S2 IS performed slightly better in the digital noise department at the expense of a slightly 'softer' picture compared to the FZ-20. My impression is that any camera in this price range, and even up to $1,000 for that matter, is gonna have shortcomings -- it seems to be a matter of choosing your priorities.

Good luck with your quest.

Ken

 

[dclive]

I've now moved my focus to the Nikon D50. For $699 with a basic lens and $899 with 2 lenses, I'm leaning towards the DSLR market more and more. The raw speed in which those cameras (meaning SLR) shoot is shocking compared to the P&S cameras I've been using.

If you do wildlife, a P&S will probably be OK. If you do sports, splurge a bit and get the SLR. It's *so* much faster you just won't believe it. The shots you miss with P&S, you'll get with even the most basic of SLRs. It's a night and day difference.

 

[swamyg1]

What would be the major difference between the FZ-20 and the FZ-5?

What about the Sony DSC-H1... here is the review:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydsch1/

 

[yosuke188]

They all look ugly. Just my opinion.

 

[billandopus]

So, what did you end up getting?

A Canon 1Ds MarkII?

I hope you ended up with the s2is. Like I told you too!