Please review my Haswell Build

[rallycobra]

It's time to build a new desktop. I've been out of the loop for some years. Career, family, other hobbies, blah, blah, blah. I'm typing thing on a overclocked Q9650 so I've missed a few generations For better or worse I'm going to step up to Windows 8

My goals are quiet, midrange, energy efficient and maybe be able to play a game. I haven't played a PC game in a few years, but I want to be able to. Sadly I'm not going to overclock this system. I don't need the speed, and don't have time to torture test it.

I have a big SSD and drives, so don't worry about that. Prices are from Newegg

MB: ASRock Z87 Extreme $ $159
Haswell CPU i5-4670s - 65W TDP ~$210?
Crucial Ballistix 2x8gb Tactical 1.35V $140
MSI 650 TI Boost 2gb 192bit $140
Heatsink Arctic Cooler i30 $40
PS: Seasonic x650 Gold or Platinum 660 $120/$140
Case? Fractal Design 3000 ~$60?
Roswell Challnerger U3
Corsair Carbide 200R

Any suggestions on the case? I need to make sure it fits that big heatsink. I want to be able to fit a long video card down the road.
Is it worth the extra $20 to go from gold to platinum PS?
I don't need a lot of frills on the motherboard. That ASRock has a better sound codec than most. Any other suggestions?

Thanks in Advance!

 

[Cerb]

No OC? No Z-series chipset. Go with B85 or H87. Anything in particular you're going to do that might use more than the one PCI-e slot?

Get the non-S CPU. The S and T versions are really best for HTPC uses, or other uses where a lower TDP is needed. The standard versions are just as efficient, they just also have higher clock speeds that they can go to when not in power-saving idle modes.

You should be able to find good RAM <=$120.

A$120 650W PSU? How about $40-75 400-600W? You won't really need more than a 300W, but the price spread for quality units is pretty small until 600W+. Even a good Seasonic should only set you back by, at most, $76, shipped, and that's really getting way more than you'll ever need.

Take those savings and get a nice case. Is there anything in particular you want the case to have? You can a lot more case for $20-50 more, and you'll save that or more just by not going overkill on the PSU.

Any case with 5.25" bays perpendicular to the motherboard will fit that HSF. Well, almost. But, you'd have to work to find one that wouldn't.

 

[rallycobra]

I want to stay Z87 so I get SSD performance and power optimization (lake tiny). I may bump the clock multiplier a couple of clicks just for fun. I probably won't ever need more than 1 PCI-E slot so I could consider a mini board. The full size boards seem to have Bluetooth and wifi built in for $20 more.

I want to save the 20W of power and get the S CPU. The turbo clock is the same as the regular chip (3.8) Base clock is slightly lower 3.1 vs 3.4

I want to do at least a 80 plus gold P.S. and I think Seasonic makes the best units. They have a Sanyo fan that doesn't turn on under 40% power utilization.

I don't need a fancy case since my tower is enclosed in ventilated furniture. I would rather spend $50 more on a p/s than a case I won't see.

So these cases won't work with an i30 arctic cooler?

 

[DSF]

I think you're paying for a lot of marketing-type things.

For example, 20W difference in a processor's TDP makes negligible difference on, say, a power bill. 80+ certifications also don't have a whole lot to do with the actual quality of a power supply. Cerb is right that you can get a high-quality power supply (even one that's made by Seasonic, whether it says Seasonic on the box or not) for about half what you're paying.

If $50 won't be useful to you in terms of the case, you could consider upgrading the video card, buying some software, or simply saving the money for a rainy day. The fact is it's not gaining you anything in the PSU realm either.

 

[Torn Mind]

How quiet do you want "quiet" to be? With my limited knowledge of cases, I do know Fractal Design's Define R4 is quite the performer in that regard.

Probably some Noctua fans would also make it even quieter.

The X650 is probably overkill, but it does have a handy switch in which you can choose to run it in a mode where the fan doesn't start until a certain wattage is used or you can just have it run "normally".

 

[rallycobra]

Power is 20 cents a kw/hr where I am. If I lower the power consumption by 50w assuming the computer is on 24 hrs a day that is about $86 a year. And it's quieter and I don't have to run the a/c as much. I'm definitely going to do go with the s processor and a seasonic p/s with the hybrid switch so the fan doesn't run. These things will definitely pay for themselves in the long term IMHO.

I guess my only questions are does anyone have a different mb suggestion or a mid tower case suggestion for this setup.

 

[Termie]

rallycobra - there are a number of misconceptions in your build, some of which have been pointed out already.

But the most important is that you CANNOT bump up clocks on Haswell non-K chips. Intel has completely disabled all turbo clock overclocking in Haswell.

So, to be brief:

4670
H87
Corsair 200R

The lower TDP chips have been proven to save far less power than the TDP would indicate. All they do is clamp down on turbo at load, which is absolutely the last thing you want to do with this system. They will not save even a single Watt at idle.

The i30 will work fine by the way in a 200R. I wouldn't bother with the Core 3000. I tried one. Felt super cheap.

The Seasonic x650 is awesome but you're paying too much. Try to catch a hot deal on one.

 

[rallycobra]

Thanks Termie. Nice sig. That was helpful. I was under the misconception I could change the multi on a S CPU. If the idle consumption doesn't change I will get the k.

And I will keep an eye out for a seasonic with the hybrid switch for less than $100

 

[Termie]

Thanks Termie. Nice sig. That was helpful. I was under the misconception I could change the multi on a S CPU. If the idle consumption doesn't change I will get the k.

And I will keep an eye out for a seasonic with the hybrid switch for less than $100

Glad to help.

Here's an article that just came out today announcing that non-K overclocks will no longer be supported: http://techreport.com/news/24950/intel-removes-modest-free-overclocking-from-standard-haswell-cpus

Hot off the press, so consider yourself saved from a whole lot of frustration!

Also, while this is a test of much older processors, you can see that the "T" variant only reduces power at load, and does so by clamping down on performance, and even then only saves a few Watts: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4524/...-review-pentium-g850-g840-g620-g620t-tested/3

 

[DSF]

By the way, I wasn't necessarily suggesting the hybrid fan is a bad idea. Just that you can get that for less. The Corsair HX650 in my current rig (built Jan 2013) is Seasonic-made and has a hybrid fan, and I believe I got it for around $85 after promos and such.

Also, 20 cents/kWh is nuts, I wasn't expecting that. Where do you live, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[Torn Mind]

First, some informational paragraphs.
CPUs don't pull their TDP all the time. Usually, they sit idle, doing very little. With Intel Speedstep Technology, their clockspeed will drop down to the lowest possible clockspeed available. TDP is actually a measure for cooling product designers so CPUs don't get too hot and for buyers, their best use is to approximate max load power consumption; you won't know how well the system idles when adding up TDP. Haswell idles around 33 watts in the Anandtech review, but it might be different in your system since mobos, hard drives, etc, can also affect that figure a bit.

The difference between Bronze and Platinum is approximately 7% of AC power converted into DC power. Since your build will never eclipse approximately 250W delivered to the components--not at the wall--even with a regular non-S or non-T chip, that means the absolute maximum difference in wattage drawn will probably be no greater than 25 watts. Usually, the 250 W figure assumes both the GPU and CPU are stressed very heavily, so typical loads will still be less than 250w and the difference between Bronze and Platinum will certainly be less than 25 watts.

Also, to maximize efficiency, the power delivered to the components ought to be at least 20% of the PSU's rated wattage since 80 Plus doesn't test at loads under 20%. It is most preferable to have power delivered to the components be at 50% of the PSU's rated wattage, since efficiency is maximized at half the wattage draw. With the GTX 650 Ti Boost's TDP of 134W and the Haswell "S" CPU having 65 W, a 450 W unit would maximize efficiency when both are loaded fully and they won't be too far from 20% of the rated load when idle.

I would think it is odd to talk about saving power and then assume someone is running a computer 24/7 unless there is a very good reason why it must run 24/7 without being allowed to let it hibernate or drop into standby. Having the system OFF will save 30 or more watts consumed in itself.

Ok, now to the suggestions.
I would suggest saving a few bucks and getting a Rosewill Fortress 450 W unit. It has a 7 year warranty and reviewers seem to consistently say it is indeed quiet. Waiting for the X650 to go on sale isn't a bad idea either.

Also, I would suggest holding off on buying a GPU until you really have a game that catches your fancy and you have the time to do some gaming, since it would be just gobbling up power sitting idle or doing things the iGPU can do just as well, such as Youtube. Heck, the HD 4600 does let you game a bit if you turn all the settings down a lot.

You should be able to undervolt your processor as well.

 

[rallycobra]

Just ordered a x560 seasonic open box from amazon for $75 shipped!

 

[Sleepingforest]

That's a great deal, but check carefully to make sure it comes with all the cables you'll need--sinces it's a modular design, and it was an open box sale, some of the cables could be missing.

Another important fact about TDP: it stands for "thermal design power". As the "thermal design" part would imply, it's a guideline for the necessary cooling hardware, NOT power consumption. Furthermore, pretty much every quadcore CPU will idle around the same point, and CPUs spend most of their time idling, so a lower max TDP doesn't do much.

In fact, if it comes at the cost of a lower max turbo clock, it is actually hurting you. The reason is this: modern CPUs use a strategy called "racing to idle". That means that CPUs very briefly turbo up to a higher power and performance state so they can quickly return to idling. Having a lower max turbo clock means you'll have to turbo for longer, which negates most of the "power savings".

Finally, you have to look at the actual cost saving of 80+ Bronze versus 80+ Gold. First consider the rough idle power consumption of a full system with a 650ti Boost: 110W (which is actually slightly more than a 7850.) The review PSU unit is an Antec True Power Quattro 1200W, which has an efficiency of about 79.21% at that load. That means the true DC power need of the system was around 87W. The Seasonic X560 gets less than 87% efficiency at that low of a load (PSUs get less efficient rapidly as the load drops below 20% or so of the max); meanwhile, a Corsair CX430 gets 78% efficient at 85W required.

You'd have to keep the computer on for 13000 hours to make up the cost difference between a $75 Seasonic X560 and a $45 Corsair CX430--that's nine years of usage at 4 hours of idle a day. Keep in mind that since the review system has a Sandy Bridge-E CPU that the idle power usage is actually lower, and it would actually take even longer to make up the power difference.

We could also look at full power usage. A max 300W gaming load at the wall (highly unusual; my own system, with an overclocked 3570K and GTX 670 barely pulls 170W from the wall while gaming) translates to a 260W need by the parts. The CX430 is 82% efficient and the X560 is 90% efficient at that DC load.

You save about half a cent per hour while gaming.

TL;DR: it's very tough to mathematically justify getting a better efficiency PSU. Unplugging your TV and computer while they're not in use has a greater impact power savings.

 

[Cerb]

I want to stay Z87 so I get SSD performance and power optimization (lake tiny).

You get all the performance and options with an H chipset, and the power optimizations don't make much sense outside of a portable computer (small fractions of a cent per day, which will not also translate into battery life).

I want to save the 20W of power and get the S CPU. The turbo clock is the same as the regular chip (3.8) Base clock is slightly lower 3.1 vs 3.4

You're not going to save 20W of power, unless you have all 4 cores laoded to 100% all day long, every day. What you save is maximum consumed power. The S model will not go higher than 3.1 base, and thus has a lower TDP. Both CPUs will go lower than that, and unless you're doing distributed computing all day, they will stay at the lower speeds for most of their on time.

I want to do at least a 80 plus gold P.S. and I think Seasonic makes the best units. They have a Sanyo fan that doesn't turn on under 40% power utilization.

That's a lot of money for almost nothing, unless you're overclocking an SLI rig.

The total savings from the PSU and CPU will typically be less than 10W, and then only if your power usage stays in the ideal band for that PSU (IE, a 80+ Bronze ~450W might be better than a 80+ Gold ~650W). Not only that, but a T or S CPU might use just as much power in practice, by needing to be run at full clocks slightly longer for a given amount of work.

Want to really save power? S3 and S4 are where it's at. Go to S3 within 15-20 minutes, S4 30-60 minutes, and use a SSD for the OS (namely, for the hibernate file).

 

[mfenn]

Looks like the big stuff I was going to mention (PSU, CPU) has already been covered in great detail. Nice!

OP, what are you planning to do with this machine? If it's gaming, you're spending too much on miscellaneous parts and not nearly enough on the GPU.

- Mobo/RAM: You don't need a fancy dual GPU board and gaming doesn't really need more than 8GB. Check out this Z87-C + 8GB RAM combo for $145.
- GPU: Take that $155 and put it towards a 7950 3GB.

 

[rallycobra]

Thanks for all of the replies. I understand the theory, but I'll bet a x560 and a x650 are more efficient than a cx430 at idle. You would have to show me back to back data to convince me otherwise, but it's insignificant anyway.

I do like the modular cables on the x560, the hybrid sanyo fan that shuts off at low loads, and the overhead if I get a more expensive video card. That alone is worth the $30 premium to me.

MB looks like I can go with a ASRock Fatal1ty H87 and save a few bucks. $105 at newegg.
i5-4670 cpu $219
16 gb crucial 1.35 ballistx $140
Seasonic X560 $75
Arctic Cooler i30 $40
Corsair 200R case $60
Maybe hold off on a video card as long as I can.
Since I'm not overclocking, maybe I should use the stock heatsink and undervolt. Hmmm.

 

[mfenn]

Maybe hold off on a video card as long as I can.

What's this computer going to be used for anyway?

 

[JasonCoder]

Good thread.

Threads like these make me wish we had an upvote system here on AT. As it is, everyone here can consider themselves to have had a virtual round of beers bought for them. Except for you mfenn... took you almost a day to respond. Slipping?

 

[Sleepingforest]

I do like the modular cables on the x560, the hybrid sanyo fan that shuts off at low loads, and the overhead if I get a more expensive video card. That alone is worth the $30 premium to me.

That's fine--in fact, I made the same decision knowing the math (and with much lower power costs). Small warning though: the GPU fan and CPU fan are loud enough to mask the PSU fan anyway. My GPU fan is really noticeable.

The best way to silence a PC is actually a good sound-dampening case like the Fractal R4. That'll make a much bigger difference than the PSU or a T-type CPU. I'd go for less expensive RAM to help make more room in the budget for the R4.

 

[rallycobra]

mfenn - thanks for the $145 combo. Computer is mostly used for web surfing and general use I hate slow machines though. I previously would play a lot of games, but I have been more of a console gamer the last few years. I haven't built a machine in a while so I'm approaching this like I'm building another gaming rig, which is probably not the most cost effective approach. You are all correct and I should save some money and put it toward a 7950 3GB.

Too bad Ivy bridge processors are still so expensive. There are some great deals on 8gb ram and motherboards on newegg.

R4 case doesn't work well with my furniture. The door opens the wrong way, and I probably want to avoid a door anyway on the front of the case.

 

[Sleepingforest]

What about the Antec 1100/P280 or the Corsair 550D?

 

[Torn Mind]

http://www.silentpcreview.com/section9.html
This site is focused on silent products and this is their section on cases.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article75-page5.html
And their recommended cases list.

 

[Cerb]

There's always the Silverstone PS07 and Temjin I'm always pushing for (but they are both MicroATX). Of course, the Corsair 350D and Fractal Design Define Mini are also MicroATX. Seems to go with the quietness territory, until you spend big bucks on cases .

However, I missed this bit last time:

The full size boards seem to have Bluetooth and wifi built in for $20 more.

The only board I know of with wifi, that's not MiniITX, is the ASRock Extrem6/ac, at $200. That's not a mere $20 more. Even the Fatality is probably more than you'll make any use of, by some margin.

While much more of a mobo, the Z87-C w/ the free RAM is a good way to go. It comes out to about the same price as a -$10 B85 or H87 mobo combo. Such a combo can be cheaper with 16GB, though. The RAM that comes free w/ it doesn't have any good stacking combos, if you want a quiet case (for a 2nd matching stick at <$67). There are some fair video card deals with it, though, and you probably won't need a 2nd 8GB, really.

 

[Sleepingforest]

I'd go with something like this for quietness:

CPU: Intel Core i5-4430 3.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($189.99 @ Newegg)
CPU Cooler: Corsair H80i 77.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($86.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: MSI H87M-G43 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($97.55 @ Newegg)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix 8GB (1 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($49.99 @ Newegg) <- Get two of these
Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 660 2GB Video Card ($209.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Corsair 350D MicroATX Mid Tower Case ($89.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $756.93
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-06-14 01:35 EDT-0400)
This RAM is equally good and a bit cheaper. You've got a small, quiet case, and a prebuilt water loop for the quiet aspect. The Asus 660's cooler is known to be pretty quiet as well. Keep in mind that WiFi and Bluetooth are about $10 apiece for a little USB dongle.

 

[Cerb]

Memory: Crucial Ballistix 8GB (1 x 8GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($49.99 @ Newegg) <- Get two of these

"$20 off w/ promo code EMCXPXN69, ends 6/13" That's 70 minutes away, I'm pretty sure.

MSI H87M-G43 and i5-4430 combo for -$10, though. Actually -$10 with any Core i CPU, it looks like.

Same video card, but -$10 promo, and $20 MIR.

Oh, and that case has a $20 MIR. So, even with $105 RAM, instead of $100, the same parts should come to close to $55 cheaper net, than listed in SF's post above, with $40 of that being 2 MIRs (P.S. just watch RAM go up at Newegg's midnight, though...).