Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional

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Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Tiger
The phrase isn't going to be removed and the decision will be overturned, either by the full 9th circuit court or the SC.
Nice try though. You'd think this guy would get tired of loosing all the time. He seems to be making a career out of it, tried this crap in Florida too.
Think about the hell he's just brought down on himself and his innocent daughter.

? Links?
 

Den

Member
Jan 11, 2000
168
0
0
Tiger is guessing. He may be right. If you read the constitution it says we get our rights from god. Heh. Although it does say creator, not god.
 

JoeBaD

Banned
May 24, 2000
822
0
0
Dude, there are points to both sides. If you insult people, don't expect them to come back with a logical, rational answer. Just a thought.

You're right. But there is enough insults going around from all sides in this discussion.

What irks me about the liberals is that they are just as bad as the extreme conservatives. They want it ALL! They will not accept compromise or reasonableness. They condemn conservatives for the same level of pigheadedness that they too practice. All this with a "holier than thou" attitude.
Makes me sick.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: JoeBaD
Dude, there are points to both sides. If you insult people, don't expect them to come back with a logical, rational answer. Just a thought.

You're right. But there is enough insults going around from all sides in this discussion.

What irks me about the liberals is that they are just as bad as the extreme conservatives. They want it ALL! They will not accept compromise or reasonableness. They condemn conservatives for the same level of pigheadedness that they too practice. All this with a "holier than thou" attitude.
Makes me sick.

Name-calling on both sides doesn't justify your actions.

Some liberals are close-minded, ignorant, and uncompromising. So are some conservatives. But most aren't. Just like most convservatives aren't. If you give it some patience and choose which discussions you want to waste your time with, you might learn to listen to some of them, too.

<--- moderate with conservative leanings.
 

Tiger

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,312
0
0
Tiger is guessing
Every constitutional scholar I've seen on the tube today says this decision will be overturned. Even the most liberal among them say it.
I don't have specific links to my statements about this moron trying this in other states. I don't need them, he admitted it in an interview this morning. He also admitted that his daughter had no input into this decision to sue and that she still uses "under god" when she recites the pledge.

The 9th circuit is the most liberal of them all and are continually being over turned by the SC.
Their last 5 decisions and 25 of their last 27.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
This will get overturned by the Supreme Court. of the past 28 rulings that have come infront of the Supremes made by the 9th court, 24 of them have been overturned.

by miricale the Supremes do not overturn it, congress wil make a constitutional ammendment.

the 9th US District court is a flaming liberal cesspool.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: JoeBaD
Zakath15,

just for you I'll be a much better boy.



Pussy!

(oops I slipped)

If you want to fight, I'll take you on. Just saying that spouting insults doesn't increase most peoples' opinion of you here, nor does it help you prove your point.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: JoeBaD
If you want to fight, I'll take you on
.

Oh no!

Not your keyboard against my keyboard.

Please, let it not come to that!

*flexes muscles* Bring it on.



You can spout all the insults you want, it'll just make you look like more of a fool in the eyes of everyone here.
 

montanafan

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 1999
3,551
2
71
AmusedOne, it is sad to see that you're one of those types who just repeats any drivel he sees to support his argument without worrying about who it came from, the reasoning behind it, or the context in which it is said.

I should have known you'd go to one of the sites maintained by Jim Allison, Susan Batte, and Tom Peters. They're always the ones referred to about that quote because they're the only people with the gall to say Adams didn't utter it based on such flimsy reasoning. Here is what Jim Allison said about it on the link you provided:

"John Wingate Thornton, The Pulpit of the American Revolution 1860 (reprinted NY: Burt Franklin, 1860; 1970), p. XXIX.
We recently located this source and now suspect that John Quincy Adams never uttered these words. Here's what we found..."

..."Throughout this introduction, Thornton quotes various early Americans on the subject of religion. At least some of the quotations are footnoted, and all of them appear to be enclosed in quotation marks.
Sometimes portions of the quotations are italicized for emphasis

The words attributed to John Quincy Adams appear on page XXIX. None of these words are placed in quotation marks. Rather, the sentence reads as if Thornton is making his own conclusion about what John Quincy Adams believed. Thornton's sentence reads as follows:


The highest glory of the American Revolution, said John Quincy Adams, was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principle of Christianity (italics in the original)...."

... "It is, of course, possible, that the printer made a mistake and forgot the quotation marks but, until somebody can locate the original source of the quote, there is no ground whatsoever to treat these words and Adams' own. The quote should be regarded as bogus."


Then AmusedOne, based on that, you come on here and say this:

Nice, but he never said that. Religious Right activist and "One Sided Wall" BSer David Barton made that up for his "America's Godly Heritage" video. It has no basis in fact, and the cite used turned out to be an author's own words, not those of Adams

You may be so easily swayed, but I prefer to think for myself and not take as gospel (no pun intended) the baseless suspicions of "an independent researcher from Virginia Beach".


It's also good to know for future discussions that the context in which something is said is not important to you.

As for the Treaty with Tripoli, the context is not important here.




Hmmmmmm I wonder, do you think that if this does get to the US Supreme Court that the guy from California's lawyer will refuse to stand when the call to order is read? Or perhaps he'll just wait in another room? Or maybe he'll sue the Supreme Court for making him stand and listen to it?
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
People secure in their "relationship" with God would be unconcerned with this, but then it seems like the whole reason people believe in God to begin with is insecurity.
 

ai42

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2001
3,653
0
0
This whole thing is a bunch of CRAP!

This falls under the same catagory of flag burning, while a lot of people see it as obsene, it is protected by the Consitution. You do not need to protect popular ideas, but unpopular ideas. Even though many will argue the term "God" as referring to all faiths, but it is not. Religon has no place in school, period. Also this arugment that schools have gone down in morals due to a lack of faith is crap too. You can't tell me that faith can make somebody good. Faith teaches ideals that are morally acceptable, but just because they beleive in something doesn't mean they follow a their faith, because the majority of those in prison have a faith (with a majority of those having the faith before they got in there). I think they should change the pledge of allegiance to not include "God".
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
You do not need to protect popular ideas, but unpopular ideas.
Tell the Foaming at the Mouth Jesus Freaks and the cowardly politicians that. God Damn Hypocrites!
 

Tiger

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,312
0
0
Tell the Foaming at the Mouth Jesus Freaks and the cowardly politicians that. God Damn Hypocrites!
Calm down Red. Your going to pop an artery.
This idiot and his lawsuit have lost everywhere else he's tried it, except California. His 15 minutes of fame are just about up.
I don't see this as a humongous constitutional issue, more like some whacked out, frustrated, possibly sociopathic loser looking for 15 more minutes of fame. His daughter will pay the price.
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
975
0
0
Well, it's a mixed bag for me. The phrase "under God" was added in 1953 in the wake of McCarthy-istic fears about "those evil atheists and communists." Given the historical setting in which the phrase was added, I wish it had never happened. The pledge was good enough for years and years before 1953 without the phrase "under God," and the historical situation that led to its addition is dubious.

But to rule that the phrase "under God' should be removed by force of law because it is unconstitutional is even more dubious. It is obvious by historical argument that the term "God" is generic enough and open to enough to private interpretation that it does not constitute state establishment of religion. That is just a common sense interpretation of U.S. history.

So, it would not bother me if the phrase were dropped, because the historical events that led to its addition I find regrettable. But I am not of the opinion that the phrase is Unconstitutional. Therefore it can not be removed by an act of the Judiciary. Its removal would require and act of the Legislature. This is a extreme example of trying to legislate from the Bench.

The decision will be overturned.
 

dman

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
9,110
0
76
Add me to the list of folks who feels that the "God" references are not needed in public schools. This has been beaten to death so I'll leave it as that.
 

Michael1897

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2002
1,019
0
0
Pres. Bush recently stated that he is against the ruling and that he thinks it was the wrong one to make
i think it was the senate that started the day off with the pledge.

from Cnn.com with reactions
'Stupid'

"That judge who shouldn't be a judge in my opinion ... let me say this, that I hope his name doesn't come before this body for any promotion. He will be remembered. He will be remembered ... I hope the Senate will waste no time in throwing this back in the face of this stupid judge. Stupid. That's what he is, stupid."

-- Sen. Robert Byrd, D-West Virginia

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Calm down Red. Your going to pop an artery.
I'm calm

Pres. Bush recently stated that he is against the ruling and that he thinks it was the wrong one to make
Of course he did, he's a politician who's going to need the Religious Ridiculouses..err Right's vote to get re-elected.
 

DarkKnight

Golden Member
Apr 21, 2001
1,197
0
0
The reason why the constitution has a clause for the separation of Church and state is because the writers of the constitution didn't want the country to have an official religion. The writers of the constitution were trying to avoid the situation in Britain where the king could force a religion on the people. How does saying "under God" represent the state supporting a single religion? Almost every single religion believes in a single God or supreme force. Lots of people who aren't even in a religion believe in some sort of supreme force. The statement "under God" represents the beliefs of almost everyone in America. As a result of this, the statement does not support a single religion and is constitutional. If the use of the word God is unconstitutional, why does our currency have reference to God, why does the Supreme Court start with an invocation to God, and why does so many buildings in the capital have references to God? The interpretation that there can be no reference to a God is wrong because the founders never wrote the constitution to exclude a reference to God in government.
 

montanafan

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 1999
3,551
2
71
Tiger, you were right about this guy being at it for a while. He was trying to get it done in Florida even before his daughter was in school and when asked about her coming to complain to him about the Pledge recently, he said that she hadn't complained about it. It's all about him.

"Physician Michael Newdow of Broward County, Florida, has appealed the dismissal of his 1998 lawsuit seeking to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and restore its original language dating to 1892. The part-time resident of Fort Lauderdale is suing on behalf of his daughter, 5.

U.S. District Judge Ursula Ungaro-Benages dismissed the case because his daughter wasn't yet school-age. Newdow argues that permitting his daughter to sit out the pledge, as provided for by a 1940's Supreme Court case, still subjects her to outsider status and religious dogma in school. The court has not considered the pledge since it was amended to include "under God" in 1948, although it recently let stand a federal court ruling dismissing a similar challenge out of Chicago."


From CNN:

Neville: At what point did your daughter come home to you and say she was ostracized for not saying the Pledge of Allegiance?

Newdow: My daughter is in the lawsuit because you need that for standing. I brought this case because I am an atheist and this offends me, and I have the right to bring up my daughter without God being imposed into her life by her schoolteachers. So she did not come and say she was ostracized.








 
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