Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional

[Red Dawn]

NightFlyerGTI

how dare you even mention such a thing

He can dare because you and your kind are not running things Herr Bubba

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: xirtam
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."

If the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional, so is the Declaration of Independence.

The D of I predates the Constitution. Your point is moot.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Scipionix

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI
The Supreme Court wouldn't even consider such a fallacy.

I believe the fallacy is your mythological diety. You may disagree. That is your Constitutional right. It's also mine, and I will greatly appreciate not having your particular beliefs shoved down my throat any time I choose to declare my allegience to the U.S.

Since the existence of God cannot be proven or disprove, atheism is as much a "religion" as any other.

But agnostism isn't. Why should we take a pledge to that which we have no idea exists?

 

[mithrandir2001]

Originally posted by: BDawg
Just heard on CNN that a federal court in San Fransisco ruled that after the addition of "under God" to the PoA during the 50's endorses a Christian God and is therefore unconstitutional.

Woohoo!

The courts are doing a lot of good lately: last week, they clamped down on the disgraceful practice of capital punishment and today, they've got the ball rolling on removing an antiquated and unnecessary religious reference in our Pledge.

 

[JellyBaby]

I would rather have a "godless" Pledge that is taught and spoken in schools as opposed to a "pro god" Pledge that cannot.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Scipionix

Originally posted by: Ramsnake hence removal of the "in god" part will not do any harm to anyone...cos it doesnt cater to the religions which have a god or the religions that dont have a god.

i know that besides the "the service and worship of God or the supernatural " definition there is also a "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" definition for religion. But im sure that you do know what people here mean when they say "separation of religion and state". quit being such a lawyer !

No, I cannot know what people mean when they refer to "separation of religion and state," considering that no such language is in the Constitution and that the meaning of the First Amendment has been debated for 200 years.

Both Madison (the author of the 1st) and Jefferson (his mentor) explaine dthe 1st as building a wall of separation between church and state.

Their intentions were perfectly clear.

BTW, there is no "innocent until proven guilty" in the Constitution or BofR, but would you deny that is the original intent?

 

[MSNY]

I don't rant very often but I'M GONNA NOW so if your offended....well to bad...at least the Constitution still has free speech it it...at least for now.

Every nation that has turned it's back on God has eventually disintegrated at some point in history. We need to pay attention to lessons learned because if God is pushed out of our society then so goes the rule of law.

As has been stated this is but the tip of a large iceberg. We will need to amend the Constitution and take "Creator" out of it. "In God We Trust" on our money will have to go. If any reference to God is banned then chaplins in the armed services must stop preaching God. The Pesident should not go to church. If you need to really worship "God" stop offending those who don't...just stop being free to worship at all....sound farfetched....not really, this IS what these LIBERAL ATHESISTS REALLY WANT !
There goal is take away any rights to religious freedom and gain the right to keep taking away our freedoms and all our other rights as Americans. This is just the beginning, mark my words. They will go for the jugular now. Why is that the Bible is ALWAYS a best seller and the most read book in the world ?
Because people KNOW there is a God and He is part of our lives...and yes our lives include our government. Nations aren't formed by chance, God had a role in starting ours. Our forefathers belived that, but apparently people of this modern age really don't. Remember the P;grims didn't come here to have a good time and eat Turkey, they came here for RELIGIOUS freedom. Now were starting to go full circle. Were afraid of "offending" those who don't want to hear about God. Maybe it's about thime they are offended, because I'm offended by there total lack of wanting to hear it. Since when was hearing something you dn't like against the law ? Everyone has the right to accept to reject what they hear, but this ruleing today opens up the "offecsive" nature of free speech.

We soon forget that our laws, when they are just and right have been instituted and passed down generations as "common law". Are these just some great thoughts passed down by our ancestors ? I think not, they came from a higher just being....namely God himself.

And where did these principles stem from that make our laws and this country ? If you read the 10 commandments its plain to see for even a blind man that EVERY law Mankind in it's wisdom would never have made 10 just ones. In fact, in the US we would make a million exceptions to just one commandment if we had a chance. We if left to our devices would have chaos. The very rights that these people want to take from us our God given rights to start with !

It boils down to this. One mans right to say there is no God takes away (eventually) will take awy my right to say there is one. If this ruling should stand then I may someday be a criminal in a police state.

I wonder what God is thinking as He looks down on us today, in our stupidity. Guess we need to pray just a little harder for our country and now we need His forgiveness for wanting to turn our backs on Him.

RANT OFF....

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Fundamentalist Christian=Hypocrite

Actually, FUN-da-MENTAL-ists are neither fun nor mental.

As the term is currently used, the term does not generally refer to those who hold to the basic fundamentals of any religion (or other belief system), but those who use and abuse those principles to foment hatred against anyone who does not subscibe to their version of what they mean. People cite fundamentalist Christian beliefs as an excuse to beat up on gays, to suppor belonging to the KKK, to oppose racial intermarriage, and a host of other benign activity. So-called "fundamentalist" Muslims are using the same bullsh8 failure of reason to justify randomly dispensing bloodshed and death to those who do not agree with their views of how society should be.

Such "logic" constitutes a perverted betrayal of the principles of almost any of the world's religions.

 

[Amused]

America was never founded as nor intended to be a "Christian nation."

"The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"

(Treaty with Tripoli, 1797. Presented by President and Founding Father John Adams, and ratified unanimously by Congress.)

 

[Tripleshot]

Look whose confused Tripleshot, no one ever said you can't pledge your allegiance to your mythical Diety

Mythical? Those who have faith do not believe God is a myth. That is just lame for you to even imply that.

And as far as us being able to express our views here, I can't begin to count the number of times someone has expressed their views here that you didn't agree with where you ended up emailing them threatening them with physical violence

Hmmmm, do you feel better now that you have slammed me with this past history, of which I have not done anything of a kind in over a year? What did you gain by making this statement?

Most of us who haven't the emotional issues you have often look upon you as the one who is confused and in need of some kind of helpful intervention.

Most eveyone has issues, emotional and otherwise. Yours seems to be a need to pontificate on the absurd, and denegrate anyone who doesn't agree with you.

For the record, ol' buddy, I see nothing is gained by threatening anyone, verbally or otherwise. Stealth is much cleaner.

Always watch your backside. I thought you were a friend. I guess I was wrong.

 

[charrison]

The real problem here is that the govt is involved in the schools. If there were not federal money involved, this would simply be a local choice of where to send your kids to school. Parents should have the right, if they are offended by the pledge to send them to a school where this is not done. The opposite is true as well.


This same ruling should also clear the way for darwin to get thrown out of science classes. Darwin to some religious people is quite offensive and goes against what they beleive in.

Welcome to the world for those that are easily offended

 

[Ramsnake]

Originally posted by: xirtam

Originally posted by: Ramsnake

Personally, I think we never should have split from England. It'd save a bundle of trouble.

now thats a traitor....

America was founded by "traitors". Have a happy Fourth of July.

so america was founded by people who thought they never should have split from england?

 

[StattlichPassat]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
NightFlyerGTI

how dare you even mention such a thing

He can dare because you and your kind are not running things Herr Bubba

Lol, me and my kind? If you're referring to Conservatives, then you're mistaken. Conservatives are running things around here by a majority, and if for some reason you've been led to believe otherwise, or have just woken up from a thousand year sleep, then follow this appeals court ruling closely, Mr. Van Winkle, and watch it fail in the hands of higher levels of government in the near future.

Herr Bubba?

 

[mithrandir2001]

Originally posted by: MSNY
We will need to amend the Constitution and take "Creator" out of it. "In God We Trust" on our money will have to go. If any reference to God is banned then chaplins in the armed services must stop preaching God. The Pesident should not go to church. If you need to really worship "God" stop offending those who don't...just stop being free to worship at all....sound farfetched....not really, this IS what these LIBERAL ATHESISTS REALLY WANT!

You should ask what conservative religious freaks want. They want submissiveness and mind control. It's a big business with sizable revenues.

 

[troglodytis]

Originally posted by: ToBeMe

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Busch, Cheney and Powell all have called the ruling ridiculous

Of course, they are Republicans and are beneficiaries of the Holy ZHigh Hard One administered by the Religious Ridiculous..err Right.

And who's running the country right now????? They are............ I'll bet this ruling doesn't last the Summer..........I couldn't care less either way............I'll say it the way I feel it should be said no matter what the want to put into it, or delete from it...........all it means to me is that I'm pledging my allegence to our flag and our country.........not your God, their God or anyone elses God.............

i'll take that bet. i've got $20 that says the ruling does not change before the end of the summer. time to put your money where your mouth is.

 

[LH]

The US government has always been deeply rooted in religion, the forefathers just didnt want to become pawns of the church. There is a long line of God, The Creator, Our Lord, throughout our governments history.

 

[toshiba3020]

How the court actually removed the 'under god' statement.

 

[Amused]

Main Entry: myth
Pronunciation: 'mith
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek mythos
Date: 1830
1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : PARABLE, ALLEGORY
2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism ?Orde Coombs> b : an unfounded or false notion
3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
4 : the whole body of myths

Any god is, by definition, a myth. Unless you can produce it on demand, it is unverifiable.

 

[LH]

It'll be overturned either at the end of the year before the US Supreme Court Justices go on vacation, or the start of next year when they get back from vacation. Theres already precedent to overturn it.

 

[xirtam]

Originally posted by: Ramsnake

Originally posted by: xirtam

Originally posted by: Ramsnake

Personally, I think we never should have split from England. It'd save a bundle of trouble.

now thats a traitor....

America was founded by "traitors". Have a happy Fourth of July.

so america was founded by people who thought they never should have split from england?

False conclusion from my premises. If I was a traitor and America was founded by traitors, that doesn't mean that I and the other traitors necessarily agree on the same principles we're rebelling against. Our independence day is a result of their rebellion -- rebellion that we condone. So if I rebelled against that rebellion, now you're calling *me* the traitor, whereas two hundred years ago you would have called me a Loyalist.

Have you seen the Patriot?

AmusedOne, who wrote the Constitution? Who wrote the Declaration of Independence? Is there no correlation between the two documents? Did we scrap the reasons we rebelled when we penned the guidelines for a new nation?

My point is not moot.

 

[StattlichPassat]

Originally posted by: MSNY
I don't rant very often but I'M GONNA NOW so if your offended....well to bad...at least the Constitution still has free speech it it...at least for now.

Every nation that has turned it's back on God has eventually disintegrated at some point in history. We need to pay attention to lessons learned because if God is pushed out of our society then so goes the rule of law.

As has been stated this is but the tip of a large iceberg. We will need to amend the Constitution and take "Creator" out of it. "In God We Trust" on our money will have to go. If any reference to God is banned then chaplins in the armed services must stop preaching God. The Pesident should not go to church. If you need to really worship "God" stop offending those who don't...just stop being free to worship at all....sound farfetched....not really, this IS what these LIBERAL ATHESISTS REALLY WANT !
There goal is take away any rights to religious freedom and gain the right to keep taking away our freedoms and all our other rights as Americans. This is just the beginning, mark my words. They will go for the jugular now. Why is that the Bible is ALWAYS a best seller and the most read book in the world ?
Because people KNOW there is a God and He is part of our lives...and yes our lives include our government. Nations aren't formed by chance, God had a role in starting ours. Our forefathers belived that, but apparently people of this modern age really don't. Remember the P;grims didn't come here to have a good time and eat Turkey, they came here for RELIGIOUS freedom. Now were starting to go full circle. Were afraid of "offending" those who don't want to hear about God. Maybe it's about thime they are offended, because I'm offended by there total lack of wanting to hear it. Since when was hearing something you dn't like against the law ? Everyone has the right to accept to reject what they hear, but this ruleing today opens up the "offecsive" nature of free speech.

We soon forget that our laws, when they are just and right have been instituted and passed down generations as "common law". Are these just some great thoughts passed down by our ancestors ? I think not, they came from a higher just being....namely God himself.

And where did these principles stem from that make our laws and this country ? If you read the 10 commandments its plain to see for even a blind man that EVERY law Mankind in it's wisdom would never have made 10 just ones. In fact, in the US we would make a million exceptions to just one commandment if we had a chance. We if left to our devices would have chaos. The very rights that these people want to take from us our God given rights to start with !

It boils down to this. One mans right to say there is no God takes away (eventually) will take awy my right to say there is one. If this ruling should stand then I may someday be a criminal in a police state.

I wonder what God is thinking as He looks down on us today, in our stupidity. Guess we need to pray just a little harder for our country and now we need His forgiveness for wanting to turn our backs on Him.

RANT OFF....

AGREED. Best post I've read in the entire five pages of this thread. Just when I was starting to doubt ATOT's level of intelligence, this post at least made the falling barometer stabilize.

 

[pyonir]

So,
Believing in god = intelligence?

 

[StattlichPassat]

Originally posted by: mithrandir2001

Originally posted by: MSNY
We will need to amend the Constitution and take "Creator" out of it. "In God We Trust" on our money will have to go. If any reference to God is banned then chaplins in the armed services must stop preaching God. The Pesident should not go to church. If you need to really worship "God" stop offending those who don't...just stop being free to worship at all....sound farfetched....not really, this IS what these LIBERAL ATHESISTS REALLY WANT!

You should ask what conservative religious freaks want. They want submissiveness and mind control. It's a big business with sizable revenues.

Oh it always is, isn't it? LOL... feel free to chime back in and tell us how anyone's going to make a dime off taking "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

[mithrandir2001]

Originally posted by: toshiba3020
How the court actually removed the 'under god' statement.

Be sure to empty the Recycle Bin!

 

[MSNY]

You should ask what conservative religious freaks want. They want submissiveness and mind control. It's a big business with sizable revenues.

Since when did taling away the freedom of worship or express there dependance on God, become mind control by conservative Christians. One nation "under God" threatens the interest of men who want all the answers but have nothing to give. It's they who want to control our minds.

I see no "religious freaks" asking any court to enforce but religious standards.

Only those who want to tell me to be totally Godless want to take control.