Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional

[kgraeme]

Originally posted by: Dual700s
I'm tired of having others beliefs shoved down my throat---that's right--I'm sick and tired of peoples ATHEIST beliefs being FORCED upon me by the government, the ACLU, and every other group of people that want to FORCE their ideas on me.


argument works both ways, doesn't it?

No, not really. The removing of the "under God" doesn't preclude people from believing in a god. Instead it treats it as an individual decision, not a political one. The way our Constitution was created. The athiests and ACLU to my knowledge didn't participate in the drafting of the Constitution.

 

[Ramsnake]

Originally posted by: Dual700s
I'm tired of having others beliefs shoved down my throat---that's right--I'm sick and tired of peoples ATHEIST beliefs being FORCED upon me by the government, the ACLU, and every other group of people that want to FORCE their ideas on me.


argument works both ways, doesn't it?

atheist beliefs , isnt ur brain funtioning properly to understand what the ruling was abt?...did they recommend something which says god doesnt exist or something like " we are a nation not under god", think dammit think...im not asking u to think abt ur religious beliefs , im asking you to think before you type.

 

[DuallyX]

Is it not an infringment upon my rights to say that I cannot pray in a school, that I cannot speak the word "God" without reprocusions. This country is going to the crap-hole. So much for the 1st amendment, huh?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Dual700s
Is it not an infringment upon my rights to say that I cannot pray in a school, that I cannot speak the word "God" without reprocusions. This country is going to the crap-hole. So much for the 1st amendment, huh?

YOU can pray all you want in school so long as you don't interrupt class time. What you cannot do is allow government employees to LEAD prayer in school or use goverment equipment to broadcast your prayer.

Get it right.

 

[DuallyX]

Originally posted by: AmusedOne

Originally posted by: Dual700s
Is it not an infringment upon my rights to say that I cannot pray in a school, that I cannot speak the word "God" without reprocusions. This country is going to the crap-hole. So much for the 1st amendment, huh?

YOU can pray all you want in school so long as you don't interupt class time. What you cannot do is allow government employees to LEAD prayer in school.

Get it right.

There have been many cases where students were not allowed to pray, especially with a group of other students, because it was thought to be "offensive" to other students.

Get it right.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Dual700s

Originally posted by: AmusedOne

Originally posted by: Dual700s
Is it not an infringment upon my rights to say that I cannot pray in a school, that I cannot speak the word "God" without reprocusions. This country is going to the crap-hole. So much for the 1st amendment, huh?

YOU can pray all you want in school so long as you don't interupt class time. What you cannot do is allow government employees to LEAD prayer in school.

Get it right.

There have been many cases where students were not allowed to pray, especially with a group of other students, because it was thought to be "offensive" to other students.

Get it right.

And in every one of those cases, the school admin was found to be out of line. Do not mistake the foibles of isolated school admins for the law of the land

Get it right.

 

[DuallyX]

And one last statement- is the regulation of religion BY the government a true seperation of Church and State? I think not. Seems that there is a blatent LACK of seperation of Church and State there....

 

[Dually]

The Constitution was framed by the Founding Fathers and that generation which gave its blood for all of us. They made it so that the government would be religious neutral for a good reason. The reason is so people aren?t discriminated based on their religion by the government because they had fled nations where you can be killed for what religion you have. If you don't like that aspect of the Constitution then you are not a patriot.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Dual700s
And one last statement- is the regulation of religion BY the government a true seperation of Church and State? I think not. Seems that there is a blatent LACK of seperation of Church and State there....

The government does not regulate religion. Only the government regulates ITSELF to remain religiously neutral.

Please, you gotta stop reading religious right literature and look objectively at the situation.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Dually
The Constitution was framed by the Founding Fathers and that generation which gave its blood for all of us. They made it so that the government would be religious neutral for a good reason. The reason is so people aren?t discriminated based on their religion by the government because they had fled nations where you can be killed for what religion you have. If you don't like that aspect of the Constitution then you are not a patriot.

Well, the main reason for religious neutrality of government was to ensure complete religious freedom.

 

[StattlichPassat]

Good reply, Dually and Dual700s- I agree.

 

[Shelly21]

Not liberal most of the time, but I agree with the ruling. Seperation of church and state, one of the principles from the beginning.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI
Good reply, Dually and Dual700s- I agree.

How can you agree with both of them? Their viewpoints oppose each other.

 

[Red Dawn]

Good reply, Dually and Dual700s- I agree

That's funny, they don't

 

[Dually]

Originally posted by: AmusedOne

Originally posted by: Dually
The Constitution was framed by the Founding Fathers and that generation which gave its blood for all of us. They made it so that the government would be religious neutral for a good reason. The reason is so people aren?t discriminated based on their religion by the government because they had fled nations where you can be killed for what religion you have. If you don't like that aspect of the Constitution then you are not a patriot.

Well, the main reason for religious neutrality of government was to ensure complete religious freedom.

That is exactly what I said AmusedOne.

Here is a Quote by the Father of the Constititution James Madison

"Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect. . . Equal laws, protecting equal rights, are found, as they ought to be presumed, the best guarantee of loyalty and love of country; as well as best calculated to cherish that mutual respect and good will among citizens of every religious denomination which are necessary to social harmony, and most favorable to the advancement of truth.
Letter to Dr. De La Motta, August 1820" (Madison, 1865, III, pages 178-179)

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Dually

Originally posted by: AmusedOne

Originally posted by: Dually
The Constitution was framed by the Founding Fathers and that generation which gave its blood for all of us. They made it so that the government would be religious neutral for a good reason. The reason is so people aren?t discriminated based on their religion by the government because they had fled nations where you can be killed for what religion you have. If you don't like that aspect of the Constitution then you are not a patriot.

Well, the main reason for religious neutrality of government was to ensure complete religious freedom.

That is exactly what I said AmusedOne.

Yeah, I just like my wording better

 

[Ramsnake]

Originally posted by: Dual700s
And one last statement- is the regulation of religion BY the government a true seperation of Church and State? I think not. Seems that there is a blatent LACK of seperation of Church and State there....

ok now give me an example where government is regulating religion.... as i see it, it is stopping the regulation of governance by religion.

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by: kgraeme

Originally posted by: Lucky
I was stopped on the street about an hour ago and interviewed by a camera crew about this. Dont know who they represented but I told them what I thought.

So does that mean you quoted Red word for word?

haha. I have my own opinions-see up a little further.

 

[littlelilith]

It has been unconstitutional since 1943 to make anyone recite the pledge in school (or even be in the same room when other people are reciting it).

That's weird.. at my school, we were always made to say it. If we didn't, we would get suspended (in-school or out) for insubordination unless you could prove (by a church official contacting the school) that you are jehovah's witness, and thus that it is against your religion to 'pledge allegiance' to anyone/anything but god.

Edit:

Is it not an infringment upon my rights to say that I cannot pray in a school, that I cannot speak the word "God" without reprocusions.

I think the idea is not that you CANNOT say it, but rather that it shouldn't have to be said.

You CAN pray in a school, and you can say "god" all you wish. Truly. This and any other law is not stopping you or anyone else. What they ARE stopping is making *everyone* pray in a public school, or making people whose religious beliefs do not contain a god (or just one god, etc) include "under God" in order to pledge allegiance to their country.

For example, praying in school... you are allowed to pray on your own whenever you want, wherever you want in school. You are allowed to form prayer groups and bible study groups and all that and have meetings on school grounds, so long as it doesn't interfere with class time and you don't force anyone to come. How is someone not allowed to pray in school?

 

[MazerRackham]

linky

Personally, I am glad that they ruled "under god" unconstitutional in the pledge of allegiance, because it is.... I'm not religious at all, and I never liked that phrase, even when I was a little dude...

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by: littlelilith

It has been unconstitutional since 1943 to make anyone recite the pledge in school (or even be in the same room when other people are reciting it).

That's weird.. at my school, we were always made to say it. If we didn't, we would get suspended (in-school or out) for insubordination unless you could prove (by a church official contacting the school) that you are jehovah's witness, and thus that it is against your religion to 'pledge allegiance' to anyone/anything but god.

Yep, thats a problem. Schools do not inform students of this right, and consequently many do not know that IS their right. If anyone is in this situation I would encourage them to contact the ACLU, who will gladly draft a letter quoting the appropriate case law detailing why this is wrong.

 

[StattlichPassat]

Originally posted by: AmusedOne

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI
Good reply, Dually and Dual700s- I agree.

How can you agree with both of them? Their viewpoints oppose each other.

Sorry, I misread the first one- the government shouldn't be ruling over this kind of thing whatsoever. Isn't that a violation of Church and State itself (oh no! not that! call in the National Guard!)?

 

[littlelilith]

Lucky, it never was that big of a deal for me, although I did always think that students should be allowed to choose if they want to stand and say the pledge or not.

 

[StattlichPassat]

For anyone who happens to be siding with me on this, I've realized there's nothing to fret over long-term. This is only at the court of appeals level, and only for a few western states- does anyone in their right mind think that it's going to progress any farther? Get a good laugh out of this and the people behind it while you can, because this b.s. will be shot down the drain as fast as it's surfaced. The Supreme Court wouldn't even consider such a fallacy.

 

[Siddhartha]

It is about time we did something about the Pledge. I quit saying it in high school because of the god part. Why do these people insist on pushing their religion on other people? The religious based messes in Iran, India - Pakistan, Ireland, just to name a few are reasons enough to keep religion as far from the goverment as possible.

I do not care what god\gods you pray to just keep it to yourself.