Police didn't know about cigar theft till after Browns death, and clerk didn't call

[s0me0nesmind1]

I think it is clear that many of you have made up your mind, just like in the Trayvon case, he is a thug therefore he deserved to die.. all of this is BS. This time however I doubt that this will be shoved under a rug or not without more huge protests if they don't do the right thing. I don't think these people, most in this country can take much more of this protecting corrupt cops who lie. Did you know that cop "wilson" didn't even file the report? No, they did it for him. I am not hateful, nor do I distrust cops, I distrust corrupt cops, and the dirty Blue Wall that protects them.

I was totally... completely... 100%... on the side of the kid (Brown) until this morning's evidence (Read: Facts) disproving all the rumors circulating came out.

I honestly thought it was open and shut from all the descriptions, etc... Regardless if the kid kicked the guy in the balls - you can chase him down but you can't shoot him.. and I was totally supporting him there. But since it's now shown through fact that isn't the case, now my side has reversed for obvious reasoning.

Why do you have to remain so ignorant? Even myself as a conservative was completely supportive of Brown up until this.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Wait, so how did this kid get 2 bullets in the head, both at downward angles when he was running away from the cop? Was the cop standing on top of his cop car or something and/or 8ft tall?

10 foot tall and bullet proof!!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

That statement leads me to believe that you suffer from tunnel vison.

hahaha 10 posts and you claim to know Oldgamer..lol

 

[LTC8K6]

Here is what Dr. Michael Baden said in a conference with the media:

Dr. Michael Baden said no signs of a struggle were revealed in his autopsy of Brown's body, conducted after an official examination by the St. Louis County medical examiner's office.
And forensics consultant Shawn Parcells, who assisted Baden, said the findings are consistent with witness reports that Brown may have been shot as he walked away and that he was shot again with his hands up.


New source link

His findings are consistent with several versions of events. So what?

His autopsy carries little weight. He's just a private ME hired pro-bono for the family.

The County autopsy carries the most weight.

They have jurisdiction.

No other ME has any jurisdiction.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
In addition, the Ferguson police wouldn't and still haven't released the clothing Brown wore so that the 3 ME's can test for gun powder residue. If there is gun powder residue then Brown was very close up and personal with the officer, but if there is none, then those shots were fired at a distance. They are also withholding the number of bullet casings from the investigators, and that would give a clearer picture of the actual number of shots fired. They pulled one bullet out of the brick in a nearby building so that makes 7 shots so far.

The police/DA cannot and should not release such evidence to private parties. 'Chain of custody' and all that.

Fern

 

[xBiffx]

The County autopsy carries the most weight.

They have jurisdiction.

No other ME has any jurisdiction.

Yep. The rest is theater, especially Baden. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that one either. You don't even need HBO.

 

[Oldgamer]

His findings are consistent with several versions of events. So what?

His autopsy carries little weight. He's just a private ME hired pro-bono for the family.

The County autopsy carries the most weight.

They have jurisdiction.

No other ME has any jurisdiction.

Did I miss something? Didn't you just post you wanted to hear it from Baden himself or something?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Then yeah I can see crown of head, but not one exiting the chin, unless of course it was an entry wound or just not an accurate account of the wounds.

From the autopsy briefing by Dr Baden

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

One of the bullets shattered Mr. Brown’s right eye, traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone.

 

[LTC8K6]

Did I miss something? Didn't you just post you wanted to hear it from Baden himself or something?

I asked that because I knew you couldn't link to it, not because I really wanted to hear Biden...

That was a specific claim that, if true, would be a bombshell.

Of course I wanted to hear that, no matter who supposedly said it, if I thought it might be true.

 

[werepossum]

You didn't notice "Police didn't know about cigar theft till after Browns death" and the basis for that is the clerk didn't call, but then we learn that a customer did and the OP clearly states this fact?

No, I caught that, but "cheap cigars" made me think the guy lifted a couple of cigars, not a $50 box.

Shots are consistent with Brown charging the officer as witnessed earlier, but that doesn't make much sense to me. I'm wondering if he struggled for the gun, jumped out to run when it went off, was winged by one to three shots as he was running, at which point he turns and holds out his hands to surrender, gets shot once to thrice more, and falls forward to curl up in a fetal position when struck by the last fatal shot to the crown of his head. That's pure speculation, but it makes more sense than someone of his size struggling for the gun, running away, then turning to charge at the officer. You'd need a LOT more than weed in your blood for that behavior to make sense, but if struck while running (or possibly even suffering a near-miss while running, either of which could make surrender seem an attractive alternative to being shot in the back) then turning back toward the cop to surrender is one not illogical action. The cop might interpret that as hostile (although hopefully he would not shoot if the kid is still several feet away) or might not even notice the change in aspect if he's firing multiple shots. Especially if the kid had rung his bell with a good punch - although it's hard to see a lot of power in a punch thrown while sitting in a car.

As far as gang signs, I'd bet 99% of teenagers flashing gang symbols in social media have no gang affiliation nor intentions of making such. We have an unfortunate love affair with the thug lifestyle in America, but most such as simply posers.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The OP did take me in with his "cheap cigars" ploy. A $50 box of cigars is a blow to a small business and not something we should accept as a gimme.

so what`s the profit margin on that box of cigars for the store..maybe $5.....

 

[LTC8K6]

From the autopsy briefing by Dr Baden

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

Yeah, that could be just as the head started to come down during the fall. Then as the head comes further down, a round enters the top of the head.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Edit: Unless the kid was actually facing the cop, falling forward.. Then yeah I can see crown of head, but not one exiting the chin, unless of course it was an entry wound or just not an accurate account of the wounds.

Bullet ricocheted off the back of the skull?

Fern

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't have any problem visualizing a fairly straight path from the eye socket to the chin and to the collar bone with a falling victim.

http://www.ideachampions.com/heart/Bowed-head.jpg

 

[Oldgamer]

I asked that because I knew you couldn't link to it, not because I really wanted to hear Biden...

That was a specific claim that, if true, would be a bombshell.

Of course I wanted to hear that, no matter who supposedly said it, if I thought it might be true.

I just did link to it.. just gave it to you..

 

[cubby1223]

I think it is clear that many of you have made up your mind, just like in the Trayvon case, he is a thug therefore he deserved to die.. all of this is BS.

Continuing to lie to yourself is totally the best way to interact with others!

 

[LTC8K6]

I just did link to it.. just gave it to you..

I have checked several sources, and Baden never said that as far as I am concerned.

You may continue to promote it, if you wish.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

There fixed that for ya...tit for tat.. eh?

Well that's interesting.

I can find post after post of you attacking the officer. In this very thread is an example of an incomprehensible contention based on your very words. "Police didn't know" with the juxtaposition of "a customer called 911" defies any and all logical reasoning. Your entire claim hinges on a point which requires that the police don't know when 911 calls are made. To cut that potential argument off, the timeline I posted shows that the police dispatch call about the robbery was made 9 minutes before initial contact between Brown and the officer. Please feel free to substitute "between the officer and Brown" if you think that makes a real difference. Do you change your allegation? By no means! You stand by it. You freely attack whether warranted or not. You have found the officer guilty and are relentless.

Tit for tat... you switch the names and somehow that makes me guilty of what you do, convicting without doubt. Absolute innocence of Brown and the unquestionable guilt of the office. Simple substitution and I claim the absolute innocence of the officer and the unquestionable guilt of Brown? You have erred again.

The problem? Psst... I'll whisper so no one else will catch on... You won't find where pronounced guilt or innocence of either party. Instead I've been against the tactics you have used, guilt by occupation. If you missed it I'm saying it now. I do not know where guilt or innocence lies. I don't know if the shooting of Brown was justified or not. I don't know, but I do know I have not created a fiction as you have here and stand by it. Anyone can make an error or a mistake in judgment. It's not error which shows strength or weakness of intellect, honesty or character. Willful misrepresentation? Finding another and another and another reason to blame with intent to find guilt? Those are what make someone reprehensible. I have already said this before your response. If it should be convincingly demonstrated based on evidence, not allegation or hearsay, that the officer wrongly shot and killed Brown the latter and his family deserve justice, and that means a very harsh penalty for the shooter indeed. No, we don't know what happened. I don't know if Brown was shot maliciously, by disregard for the rules of engagement, mistake in judgement, or by Brown's actions, but I would know before conviction and sentence. You clearly have no such moral restraint. You see yourself as a crusader for the repressed, the shining and relentless Nemesis. I see you as Ahab and so I quote Melville, “I ask thee not to beware of Starbuck; thou wouldst but laugh; but let Ahab beware of Ahab; beware of thyself, old man.

 

[Oldgamer]

Well that's interesting.

I can find post after post of you attacking the officer. In this very thread is an example of an incomprehensible contention based on your very words. "Police didn't know" with the juxtaposition of "a customer called 911" defies any and all logical reasoning. Your entire claim hinges on a point which requires that the police don't know when 911 calls are made. To cut that potential argument off, the timeline I posted shows that the police dispatch call about the robbery was made 9 minutes before initial contact between Brown and the officer. Please feel free to substitute "between the officer and Brown" if you think that makes a real difference. Do you change your allegation? By no means! You stand by it. You freely attack whether warranted or not. You have found the officer guilty and are relentless.

Tit for tat... you switch the names and somehow that makes me guilty of what you do, convicting without doubt. Absolute innocence of Brown and the unquestionable guilt of the office. Simple substitution and I claim the absolute innocence of the officer and the unquestionable guilt of Brown? You have erred again.

The problem? Psst... I'll whisper so no one else will catch on... You won't find where pronounced guilt or innocence of either party. Instead I've been against the tactics you have used, guilt by occupation. If you missed it I'm saying it now. I do not know where guilt or innocence lies. I don't know if the shooting of Brown was justified or not. I don't know, but I do know I have not created a fiction as you have here and stand by it. Anyone can make an error or a mistake in judgment. It's not error which shows strength or weakness of intellect, honesty or character. Willful misrepresentation? Finding another and another and another reason to blame with intent to find guilt? Those are what make someone reprehensible. I have already said this before your response. If it should be convincingly demonstrated based on evidence, not allegation or hearsay, that the officer wrongly shot and killed Brown the latter and his family deserve justice, and that means a very harsh penalty for the shooter indeed. No, we don't know what happened. I don't know if Brown was shot maliciously, by disregard for the rules of engagement, mistake in judgement, or by Brown's actions, but I would know before conviction and sentence. You clearly have no such moral restraint. You see yourself as a crusader for the repressed, the shining and relentless Nemesis. I see you as Ahab and so I quote Melville, “I ask thee not to beware of Starbuck; thou wouldst but laugh; but let Ahab beware of Ahab; beware of thyself, old man.

Oh good lord...please spare me..

 

[Thebobo]

Guilty!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Shots are consistent with Brown charging the officer as witnessed earlier, but that doesn't make much sense to me. I'm wondering if he struggled for the gun, jumped out to run when it went off, was winged by one to three shots as he was running, at which point he turns and holds out his hands to surrender, gets shot once to thrice more, and falls forward to curl up in a fetal position when struck by the last fatal shot to the crown of his head.

What you say seems a reasonable hypothesis and hopefully can be validated or eliminated as well as your other points. As far as MJ use, I have a study which does not seem to have an axe to grind regarding the debate. Relationship between cannibus use and violence.

In that study there is an increase of about 4% in the population studied. Frequency of use, total THC consumed and other factors will cause variation, but there's little doubt of the effect. It may be that Brown was prone to violent tendencies caused to MJ use, which would be adding misfortune to tragedy. I have been purposefully selective in my reading of allegations against Brown's character including vague references to past criminal behavior. Do we have anything credible and definitive? I ask because such reactions to chemicals tends to be a fairly consistent thing in an individual prone to such things, and perhaps an accurate telling of his past criminal activities may be enlightening, and yes Ahab, that means real events of which there may be exactly zero.

There is much to consider even after the "who dunnits" are revealed.

 

[werepossum]

so what`s the profit margin on that box of cigars for the store..maybe $5.....

It's not the $5 they lose, it's the $45 they have to make up. Just because some ass hat stole them doesn't mean the store owner doesn't have to pay for them.

Yeah, that could be just as the head started to come down during the fall. Then as the head comes further down, a round enters the top of the head.

Could be a fall, could be ducking into a ball to make a smaller target. I suppose it could be charging too, but charging a cop with a loaded gun from thirty-five feet seems pretty stupid even if one ducks one's head. In fact, ducking one's head while charging to the point of the head being nearly horizontal (as required by the orbital-chin-collarbone trajectory with a stabilized bullet) seems unlikely to me, although I suppose he could have been charging and then fell/ducked after being shot in the hands & arm.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Oh good lord...please spare me..

I do spare your. I have refuted you at every level, not called for your head. Your removal for a period of time might be warranted, but what I'm sure you don't know is that I was an admin who stepped down without being asked to do so. I was not chased out, so you can dismiss any accusatory aspersions of incompetence or malfeasance. Spare you? I spared many and argued for many more who did not deserve it in themselves, but on two accounts. First is the idea of free speech being defined on tolerance of ideas that one personally finds abhorrent. There are limits, but I felt it important to err on a more liberal interpretation of what may be said. The worst cases could be corrected and I believe that at times it's better to hold up the contemptible and argue against it rather than sweep it under the rug. I also believe that and something found in the Bible, James 2:13. Everyone cries for justice, but if it should come to pass that they themselves are weighed in the balance and found wanting they most assuredly plea for mercy over all else. That does not mean judgement is wrong or unwarranted, but justice without the idea of mercy being a possibility is tyranny. That is something the world despises and does not grasp as a whole. I see from your actions where you stand on that matter. No, I would let you continue, but do not expect less than you are getting.

 

[werepossum]

What you say seems a reasonable hypothesis and hopefully can be validated or eliminated as well as your other points. As far as MJ use, I have a study which does not seem to have an axe to grind regarding the debate. Relationship between cannibus use and violence.

In that study there is an increase of about 4% in the population studied. Frequency of use, total THC consumed and other factors will cause variation, but there's little doubt of the effect. It may be that Brown was prone to violent tendencies caused to MJ use, which would be adding misfortune to tragedy. I have been purposefully selective in my reading of allegations against Brown's character including vague references to past criminal behavior. Do we have anything credible and definitive? I ask because such reactions to chemicals tends to be a fairly consistent thing in an individual prone to such things, and perhaps an accurate telling of his past criminal activities may be enlightening, and yes Ahab, that means real events of which there may be exactly zero.

There is much to consider even after the "who dunnits" are revealed.

Is that really correlation of violence with THC intake? I'd argue that 4% may very well be a statistical blip caused by the fact that kids who don't use weed at all are unusually straight-laced and therefore non-violent. These are the Mormons/Witnesses/Adventitsts who go door to door with informative literature between reading to the blind. Personally I put little stock in the report that marijuana was found in his blood for the simple fact that probably 90% of young males have evidence of marijuana in their blood, regardless of whether they are in trouble.

As for the other, today is the first I've heard anything bad about Brown, and while it has largely removed my sympathy for him, so far it hasn't really made me take a side for or against the legality of his shooting. That still seems unlikely to me even though today's news dump has been largely exculpatory for the officer. If he has a criminal history it should come out soon and probably would have come out by now, as being deceased he presumably no longer enjoys protection of his juvenile activities.

 

[Oldgamer]

I do spare your. I have refuted you at every level, not called for your head. Your removal for a period of time might be warranted, but what I'm sure you don't know is that I was an admin who stepped down without being asked to do so. I was not chased out, so you can dismiss any accusatory aspersions of incompetence or malfeasance. Spare you? I spared many and argued for many more who did not deserve it in themselves, but on two accounts. First is the idea of free speech being defined on tolerance of ideas that one personally finds abhorrent. There are limits, but I felt it important to err on a more liberal interpretation of what may be said. The worst cases could be corrected and I believe that at times it's better to hold up the contemptible and argue against it rather than sweep it under the rug. I also believe that and something found in the Bible, James 2:13. Everyone cries for justice, but if it should come to pass that they themselves are weighed in the balance and found wanting they most assuredly plea for mercy over all else. That does not mean judgement is wrong or unwarranted, but justice without the idea of mercy being a possibility is tyranny. That is something the world despises and does not grasp as a whole. I see from your actions where you stand on that matter. No, I would let you continue, but do not expect less than you are getting.

Ok now your just babbling at this point. So you were an admin, and your saying what? you would have had me banned? What on gods green earth has any of this got to do with this thread?? And your throwing in bible verses?? /smacks forehead

Your just babbling now..