Police K-9 attack did not violate pregnant woman's rights

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
District court judge says 2015 police K-9 attack did not violate pregnant woman's rights


https://www.indystar.com/story/news...egnant-woman-mauled-impd-k-9-2015/1499200002/

A U.S. district court judge has ruled in favor of the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department in a lawsuit filed by a pregnant woman attacked by a K-9 in 2015, saying although the attack was "horrendous," it did not violate the woman's constitutional rights.

Woman comes out onto her porch and the dog attacks her. Court ruled that the department is not responsible because she was not the target.

Someone might be able to explain why they went the route of the 4th amendment.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
wait, are we to think her rights were violated because she was pregnant, or because she was attacked on her own property when she wasn't a target?
 
Reactions: Vic

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,673
580
126
I see these laws in several states and find it a bit surprising. Essentially, a Police K9, while on duty, can bite and maul pretty much anyone it wants when released by its handler, and the results of its release are essentially immune to lawsuit, even in cases like this, where the K9 mauls the entirely wrong target.

I can't see that as anything but wrong, but it's how the law is set up. The only way to fight it is to say your rights were violated. And of course in this particular case that wasn't enough.

This is one of those cases where common sense loses to laws. The way our laws are written have provided an out for the city, even though any rational mind would agree that the city should obviously be paying for her recovery.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,684
43,943
136
If she would have defended herself, would she have been charged with assaulting a police officer?
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
Not sure how her rights are even involved with the K9 mauling her. But don't the police just charge the mauling to the criminal they were trying to catch? I remember how during a home robbery involving two criminals and one getaway driver, the two criminals were killed by the homeowner in self defense. The getaway driver ended up getting charged with murder or something even though he didn't actually shoot anyone but contributed to their deaths.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
Can she still sue in a civil case?

This was the civil case.

Not sure how her rights are even involved with the K9 mauling her. But don't the police just charge the mauling to the criminal they were trying to catch? I remember how during a home robbery involving two criminals and one getaway driver, the two criminals were killed by the homeowner in self defense. The getaway driver ended up getting charged with murder or something even though he didn't actually shoot anyone but contributed to their deaths.

That's the felony murder rule, but the state sending a broke criminal to jail for extra time because the K-9 attacked the wrong person would not help her pay her medical bills.

Id like to see a middle ground with cases like these. I'm fine not having taxpayers pay her hundreds of thousands of dollars for pain and suffering, but the city/taxpayers should cover her actual medical bills.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
If an on-duty police dog mauled you, your extreme physical pain wouldn't be worth anything? That's an interesting viewpoint.

At the very least, shouldn't departments be forced to have some sort of umbrella insurance policy to cover events like this? Or do they already?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
At the very least, shouldn't departments be forced to have some sort of umbrella insurance policy to cover events like this? Or do they already?

Apparently, any damage caused by "reasonable" police activity, the city does not have to pay. So if they have a valid reason for deploying the dog, they are not responsible for what the dog does. Just as if they have a reason to shoot at a suspect and end up killing someone else by accident, they are not liable.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
I see these laws in several states and find it a bit surprising. Essentially, a Police K9, while on duty, can bite and maul pretty much anyone it wants when released by its handler, and the results of its release are essentially immune to lawsuit, even in cases like this, where the K9 mauls the entirely wrong target.

I can't see that as anything but wrong, but it's how the law is set up. The only way to fight it is to say your rights were violated. And of course in this particular case that wasn't enough.

This is one of those cases where common sense loses to laws. The way our laws are written have provided an out for the city, even though any rational mind would agree that the city should obviously be paying for her recovery.

They are shielded from liability for lots of things because tax payers are ultimately on the hook for it.

The only "solution" would be to disallow police dogs. Trained though they may be, they cannot be totally controlled. Allowing the use of them then making the general public pay every time they bite the wrong person is not a good idea.

I suppose a middle ground could be to allow liability but only to the extent of covering medical bills. No pain and suffering.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
If an on-duty police dog mauled you, your extreme physical pain wouldn't be worth anything? That's an interesting viewpoint.

I didn't say that. But I think we have to balance my interest in compensation against the interests of the entire City, and I would draw the balancing line between reimbursement for out of pocket expenses and money for things like pain and suffering - where money is a poor substitute anyway.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
136
Why are police officers allowed to order their dogs to attack people again?
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Why are police officers allowed to order their dogs to attack people again?
Because they’re too fat or too scared for their wellbeing to do the job themselves. I can see their use for truly dangerous criminals, but I think sometimes they’re over used.
 
Last edited:

Josephus312

Senior member
Aug 10, 2018
586
172
71
And here I thought that they were only used to search an enclosed premise rather than running around biting anyone in the neighborhood who is unlucky enough to get in the way.

I used to be for K-9 units but no more. What if it's a couple of kids playing on the front lawn and one of them is bitten to death? No ones fault? Fuck that.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,512
4,607
136
A state-level case is still pending, Little said, and they're weighing whether to appeal Pratt's ruling.

I hope she wins at least the state level case.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,195
3,699
136
I see these laws in several states and find it a bit surprising. Essentially, a Police K9, while on duty, can bite and maul pretty much anyone it wants when released by its handler, and the results of its release are essentially immune to lawsuit, even in cases like this, where the K9 mauls the entirely wrong target.

I can't see that as anything but wrong, but it's how the law is set up. The only way to fight it is to say your rights were violated. And of course in this particular case that wasn't enough.

This is one of those cases where common sense loses to laws. The way our laws are written have provided an out for the city, even though any rational mind would agree that the city should obviously be paying for her recovery.

The sad part is, if you defend yourself against a dog attack, they claim you killed a cop.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/c...-lengthy-prison-sentence/stories/201503100159

Man who stabbed Pittsburgh K-9 officer Rocco receives lengthy jail sentence

Killing Rocco the police dog got John Rush 3⅓ to 7 years in prison.

But add in attempting to disarm a sheriff’s deputy, stabbing a Pittsburgh police officer and assaulting two others, and the sentence for John Rush climbed to at least a 17-year-9-month prison term — which could run all the way up to 44 years if he doesn’t make parole.

Rush, dressed in a burgundy Allegheny County Jail jumpsuit with his hands shackled in front of him, had nothing to say when asked by Common Pleas Judge Jill E. Rangos on Tuesday morning if he would like to speak on his own behalf.

His defense attorney, Aaron Sontz, also said nothing and called no witnesses.

Only Rocco’s human partner testified, and even he spoke briefly.
“I lost my partner from this. He was also a family member,” said Pittsburgh police Officer Phil Lerza.

Rush, a convicted sex offender, was being sought on a bench warrant for his arrest when a sheriff’s deputy spotted him in Lawrenceville on Jan. 28, 2014. Rush fought with the deputy, tried to disarm him and then hid in the basement of an apartment building. Pittsburgh officers responded and warned Rush to come out or they would send in the dog. Rocco was released, and Rush stabbed him and Officer Lerza and fought with other officers. Rocco died two days later.

Deputy district attorney Jennifer DiGiovanni asked Judge Rangos for a lengthy sentence, arguing that Rush had been arrested for multiple assaults, and that after every attempt at treatment, has committed new crimes.
The prosecutor said she also spoke with the defendant’s mother, who is a witness in another case, prior to sentencing, and that Renee Rush said her son has mental health issues, has been institutionalized most of his life and that he’s violent.

“She indicated she, herself, is afraid of her son, and when he would stay with her, she slept with her door locked,” Ms. DiGiovanni said.

Judge Rangos said her decision was based in part on the 22-year-old’s history of least 20 prior assaults.

The judge broke the sentence down charge by charge: 2½ to 7 years for disarming a law enforcement officer; 3 years and 4 months up to 7 years for killing a police animal; 3 years to 7½ years for each of four counts of aggravated assault on a law enforcement officer.

The judge said all are to run consecutive to one another, resulting in a term of 17 years and 9 months up to 44 years.
“This is definitely a long sentence,” said Duquesne University Law professor Wes Oliver. “This is a sentence that could be handed down for third-degree murder.”

Mr. Oliver noted that while judges are given recommended guidelines of prison time to follow in sentencing, there are no rules set out that require penalties to run concurrently, or at the same time, versus consecutively, or one after the other.

“State guidelines are typically very vague and give the judge wide discretion,” he said. Judge Rangos said the aggravated assault sentences were meant to acknowledge each victim. Mr. Oliver doesn’t contest that idea, but said running them consecutively makes the sentence more in line with criminal homicide.

“Each individual component of the logic makes sense, but when you add it up it seems a little off kilter with how we think people ought to be sentenced for crimes that don’t involve homicide.

“No human was actually killed.”

Defense attorney Lee Rothman said he is sure the sentence will withstand appeals even though he views it as excessive. “While a police dog is working in the line of duty, it is still an animal. It’s not a human being,” Mr. Rothman said.

But, he continued, “All [Rush] had to do was adhere to police instructions and none of this would have happened.”
He said that Rush could have received as much as 10 years in prison for stabbing Officer Lerza alone.
“I wouldn’t expect somebody to get less than 10 to 20 for stabbing a police officer,” Mr. Rothman said. “He could have died.”

Following Rocco’s death, there was an outpouring of support for K-9 officers, which led to the passage of new legislation that took effect in August. It increased the grading of killing a police animal to a second-degree felony, from a third-degree, and increased the penalty from up to seven years in prison to up to 10.

“Although it didn’t impact the sentence in this case, I’m hoping it will act as a deterrent — that K-9 officers are an integral part of law enforcement and significant investments in communities protecting their interests,” said state Sen. Matt Smith, D-Mt. Lebanon.

Apparently, K-9s have more rights and value than blacks.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Id like to see a middle ground with cases like these. I'm fine not having taxpayers pay her hundreds of thousands of dollars for pain and suffering, but the city/taxpayers should cover her actual medical bills.

How then would you propose encouraging the taxpayers to start holding their governments responsible if not through their pocketbooks?
Government abuses occur because the people allow them to and, in many cases, encourage them. Usually just because it's happening to someone else (mob mentality) and so they believe (wrongly) that it doesn't affect them. Seems to me there's a legal way to fix it.
 
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