Police kill wedding groom

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Narmer
By the way, what question are you talking about?

Mainly, this one,

"To be clear, if you hear someone say that they are going to get their gun, you stop them and identify yourself as a Police officer, they hit you with their car, then reach into their waistband, what exactly would you do in that situation Narmer?"

You said, "I doubt he said that because the man just spoke from his hospital bed saying he wasn't armed" but the Police say that he did say that he had a gun. Maybe the Police we waiting for back up before they approached him, seems like a prudent thing to do if they were outnumbered.

You are critizing me for backing the Police before all of the facts are in, yet you are convicting them before all of the facts are in. You have yet to respond to this, I have said it several times.

You are reading the post that you linked, believing everything that the "victim" said and discounting everything that the Police said. Do you not see a problem with this? Maybe you and the op should wait until all of the facts are in until you make outrageous accusations like you have.

You have also failed to show proof of all of this Police racism and brutality that you claim, besides all of these mystery people that report all of this to you. You keep ignoring the majority of my posts.

If I was Police and somebody said they had a gun, whether or not I was the commanding officer, I sure as hell would've identified myself as police and put them under arrest because carrying a concealed weapon is illegal for civilians (i believe). If the individual was in an automobile, I would've done the same thing.

But the problem with all this is that the cop that escalated all of this WAS FOLLOWING the men to their vehicles and DID NOT STOP THEM. The fool should've followed common sense and police procedure and done what I would've done in that hypothetical situation.

How can you defend these people when they fail to follow proper procedure? I don't understand.

Is common sense stopping a group of men coming from a club by yourself? I do not know if this is what happened, neither do you, but this is what you "think" happened. Suppose that they were waiting for back up? Once again, you ignore the majority of my posts, until you address them I will no be responding to this thread. I'll post it one last time.

You said, "I doubt he said that because the man just spoke from his hospital bed saying he wasn't armed" but the Police say that he did say that he had a gun. Maybe the Police we waiting for back up before they approached him, seems like a prudent thing to do if they were outnumbered.

You are critizing me for backing the Police before all of the facts are in, yet you are convicting them before all of the facts are in. You have yet to respond to this, I have said it several times.

You are reading the post that you linked, believing everything that the "victim" said and discounting everything that the Police said. Do you not see a problem with this? Maybe you and the op should wait until all of the facts are in until you make outrageous accusations like you have.

You have also failed to show proof of all of this Police racism and brutality that you claim, besides all of these mystery people that report all of this to you. You keep ignoring the majority of my posts

Edit - almost forgot this one...

You say it would be a good thing to blow up a Police station because you are frustrated with the cops, even though it would kill tons of innocent people. Would it be a good thing to blow up a few city blocks in the inner city because everyone is pretty damn frustrated with the constant crime and drug dealing?[/quote]

Your analogy is flawed because people from the inner city do not come to where you live and kill you. Furthermore, if people from the inner city were enforced to protect you but abused their power, you would have the right to kill as many of them as humanely possible.
[/quote]

LOL, yea, inner city crime and the drug trade only effects those in the inner city, and you did not show any evidence of Police abusing their power on a wide scale, lol, nice try. Anyways, I'm done with this thread, you still ignored the rest of my points.

I hope that someday you can get over your irrational fear and hatred of the Police, and realize that 99 percent of Police Officers want nothing more than to make this world a better place, and to protect the innocent. Your hatred does nothing but bring you down and it shows in your posts.

Edit - I live 15 mins from the city and I go there frequently, so yea, it does effect me.[/quote]


The parts that are in bold are the questions that you have refused to answer.

[/quote]

You will have to forgive my bias because I've experienced and heard of too many negative interactions with police. With that said, if I was police, I would follow procedure to the letter, independent of my environment. Unfortunately, police officers, no matter what race they are, tend to get jumpy in minority communities and don't follow procedure, instead responding out of pure fear and indifference to the lives of those in the community.

You can defend them all you want because you are on the opposite end of my experiences, but you have to see it from my point of view considering that I've seen it from your point of view (I've said many times that police act differently in white neighborhoods than those of minorities).

All in all, considering all the various circumstances, I strongly believe that the cops are lying to cover up their tragic mistake.

Originally posted by: JD50
You want to turn the civilian police over to the military, how in the world is that independant from politics?

They are far more independent, relatively speaking. For example, they don't have their own God-damn union.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Narmer
By the way, what question are you talking about?

Mainly, this one,

"To be clear, if you hear someone say that they are going to get their gun, you stop them and identify yourself as a Police officer, they hit you with their car, then reach into their waistband, what exactly would you do in that situation Narmer?"

You said, "I doubt he said that because the man just spoke from his hospital bed saying he wasn't armed" but the Police say that he did say that he had a gun. Maybe the Police we waiting for back up before they approached him, seems like a prudent thing to do if they were outnumbered.

You are critizing me for backing the Police before all of the facts are in, yet you are convicting them before all of the facts are in. You have yet to respond to this, I have said it several times.

You are reading the post that you linked, believing everything that the "victim" said and discounting everything that the Police said. Do you not see a problem with this? Maybe you and the op should wait until all of the facts are in until you make outrageous accusations like you have.

You have also failed to show proof of all of this Police racism and brutality that you claim, besides all of these mystery people that report all of this to you. You keep ignoring the majority of my posts.

If I was Police and somebody said they had a gun, whether or not I was the commanding officer, I sure as hell would've identified myself as police and put them under arrest because carrying a concealed weapon is illegal for civilians (i believe). If the individual was in an automobile, I would've done the same thing.

But the problem with all this is that the cop that escalated all of this WAS FOLLOWING the men to their vehicles and DID NOT STOP THEM. The fool should've followed common sense and police procedure and done what I would've done in that hypothetical situation.

How can you defend these people when they fail to follow proper procedure? I don't understand.

Is common sense stopping a group of men coming from a club by yourself? I do not know if this is what happened, neither do you, but this is what you "think" happened. Suppose that they were waiting for back up? Once again, you ignore the majority of my posts, until you address them I will no be responding to this thread. I'll post it one last time.

You said, "I doubt he said that because the man just spoke from his hospital bed saying he wasn't armed" but the Police say that he did say that he had a gun. Maybe the Police we waiting for back up before they approached him, seems like a prudent thing to do if they were outnumbered.

You are critizing me for backing the Police before all of the facts are in, yet you are convicting them before all of the facts are in. You have yet to respond to this, I have said it several times.

You are reading the post that you linked, believing everything that the "victim" said and discounting everything that the Police said. Do you not see a problem with this? Maybe you and the op should wait until all of the facts are in until you make outrageous accusations like you have.

You have also failed to show proof of all of this Police racism and brutality that you claim, besides all of these mystery people that report all of this to you. You keep ignoring the majority of my posts

Edit - almost forgot this one...

You say it would be a good thing to blow up a Police station because you are frustrated with the cops, even though it would kill tons of innocent people. Would it be a good thing to blow up a few city blocks in the inner city because everyone is pretty damn frustrated with the constant crime and drug dealing?

Your analogy is flawed because people from the inner city do not come to where you live and kill you. Furthermore, if people from the inner city were enforced to protect you but abused their power, you would have the right to kill as many of them as humanely possible.
[/quote]

LOL, yea, inner city crime and the drug trade only effects those in the inner city, and you did not show any evidence of Police abusing their power on a wide scale, lol, nice try. Anyways, I'm done with this thread, you still ignored the rest of my points.

I hope that someday you can get over your irrational fear and hatred of the Police, and realize that 99 percent of Police Officers want nothing more than to make this world a better place, and to protect the innocent. Your hatred does nothing but bring you down and it shows in your posts.

Edit - I live 15 mins from the city and I go there frequently, so yea, it does effect me.[/quote]


The parts that are in bold are the questions that you have refused to answer.

[/quote]

You will have to forgive my bias because I've experienced and heard of too many negative interactions with police. With that said, if I was police, I would follow procedure to the letter, independent of my environment. Unfortunately, police officers, no matter what race they are, tend to get jumpy in minority communities and don't follow procedure, instead responding out of pure fear and indifference to the lives of those in the community.

You can defend them all you want because you are on the opposite end of my experiences, but you have to see it from my point of view considering that I've seen it from your point of view (I've said many times that police act differently in white neighborhoods than those of minorities).

All in all, considering all the various circumstances, I strongly believe that the cops are lying to cover up their tragic mistake.

Originally posted by: JD50
You want to turn the civilian police over to the military, how in the world is that independant from politics?

They are far more independent, relatively speaking. For example, they don't have their own God-damn union.[/quote]


So once again you cannot answer my questions?

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Narmer
By the way, what question are you talking about?

Mainly, this one,

"To be clear, if you hear someone say that they are going to get their gun, you stop them and identify yourself as a Police officer, they hit you with their car, then reach into their waistband, what exactly would you do in that situation Narmer?"

You said, "I doubt he said that because the man just spoke from his hospital bed saying he wasn't armed" but the Police say that he did say that he had a gun. Maybe the Police we waiting for back up before they approached him, seems like a prudent thing to do if they were outnumbered.

You are critizing me for backing the Police before all of the facts are in, yet you are convicting them before all of the facts are in. You have yet to respond to this, I have said it several times.

You are reading the post that you linked, believing everything that the "victim" said and discounting everything that the Police said. Do you not see a problem with this? Maybe you and the op should wait until all of the facts are in until you make outrageous accusations like you have.

You have also failed to show proof of all of this Police racism and brutality that you claim, besides all of these mystery people that report all of this to you. You keep ignoring the majority of my posts.

If I was Police and somebody said they had a gun, whether or not I was the commanding officer, I sure as hell would've identified myself as police and put them under arrest because carrying a concealed weapon is illegal for civilians (i believe). If the individual was in an automobile, I would've done the same thing.

But the problem with all this is that the cop that escalated all of this WAS FOLLOWING the men to their vehicles and DID NOT STOP THEM. The fool should've followed common sense and police procedure and done what I would've done in that hypothetical situation.

How can you defend these people when they fail to follow proper procedure? I don't understand.

Is common sense stopping a group of men coming from a club by yourself? I do not know if this is what happened, neither do you, but this is what you "think" happened. Suppose that they were waiting for back up? Once again, you ignore the majority of my posts, until you address them I will no be responding to this thread. I'll post it one last time.

You said, "I doubt he said that because the man just spoke from his hospital bed saying he wasn't armed" but the Police say that he did say that he had a gun. Maybe the Police we waiting for back up before they approached him, seems like a prudent thing to do if they were outnumbered.

You are critizing me for backing the Police before all of the facts are in, yet you are convicting them before all of the facts are in. You have yet to respond to this, I have said it several times.

You are reading the post that you linked, believing everything that the "victim" said and discounting everything that the Police said. Do you not see a problem with this? Maybe you and the op should wait until all of the facts are in until you make outrageous accusations like you have.

You have also failed to show proof of all of this Police racism and brutality that you claim, besides all of these mystery people that report all of this to you. You keep ignoring the majority of my posts

Edit - almost forgot this one...

You say it would be a good thing to blow up a Police station because you are frustrated with the cops, even though it would kill tons of innocent people. Would it be a good thing to blow up a few city blocks in the inner city because everyone is pretty damn frustrated with the constant crime and drug dealing?

Your analogy is flawed because people from the inner city do not come to where you live and kill you. Furthermore, if people from the inner city were enforced to protect you but abused their power, you would have the right to kill as many of them as humanely possible.

LOL, yea, inner city crime and the drug trade only effects those in the inner city, and you did not show any evidence of Police abusing their power on a wide scale, lol, nice try. Anyways, I'm done with this thread, you still ignored the rest of my points.

I hope that someday you can get over your irrational fear and hatred of the Police, and realize that 99 percent of Police Officers want nothing more than to make this world a better place, and to protect the innocent. Your hatred does nothing but bring you down and it shows in your posts.

Edit - I live 15 mins from the city and I go there frequently, so yea, it does effect me.[/quote]


The parts that are in bold are the questions that you have refused to answer.

[/quote]

You will have to forgive my bias because I've experienced and heard of too many negative interactions with police. With that said, if I was police, I would follow procedure to the letter, independent of my environment. Unfortunately, police officers, no matter what race they are, tend to get jumpy in minority communities and don't follow procedure, instead responding out of pure fear and indifference to the lives of those in the community.

You can defend them all you want because you are on the opposite end of my experiences, but you have to see it from my point of view considering that I've seen it from your point of view (I've said many times that police act differently in white neighborhoods than those of minorities).

All in all, considering all the various circumstances, I strongly believe that the cops are lying to cover up their tragic mistake.

Originally posted by: JD50
You want to turn the civilian police over to the military, how in the world is that independant from politics?

They are far more independent, relatively speaking. For example, they don't have their own God-damn union.[/quote]


So once again you cannot answer my questions?
[/quote]

Oh, the one about the inner city? Well, just as my example was extreme, so is yours. However, the inner city don't come to your town and rob you and they've never pretended to protect you. ANd I said that I would understand if someone did it. That doesn't equate to actively supporting such harsh punishment on the corrupt police force.

The police are there to defend us. If they misbehave, they should be punished harshly. If you haven't seen it by now, I'm a fan of Hobbes on these matters.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Narmer


Oh, the one about the inner city? Well, just as my example was extreme, so is yours. However, the inner city don't come to your town and rob you and they've never pretended to protect you. ANd I said that I would understand if someone did it. That doesn't equate to actively supporting such harsh punishment on the corrupt police force.

The police are there to defend us. If they misbehave, they should be punished harshly. If you haven't seen it by now, I'm a fan of Hobbes on these matters.

No, all of my questions, the ones that are in bold.

Like I said before, I live 15 minutes from Baltimore and 30 minutes from DC, I go to both cities. Do you really think that the crime and drugs from the inner cities have no effect on the surrounding areas? I know that you cannot be that naive.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Narmer


Oh, the one about the inner city? Well, just as my example was extreme, so is yours. However, the inner city don't come to your town and rob you and they've never pretended to protect you. ANd I said that I would understand if someone did it. That doesn't equate to actively supporting such harsh punishment on the corrupt police force.

The police are there to defend us. If they misbehave, they should be punished harshly. If you haven't seen it by now, I'm a fan of Hobbes on these matters.

No, all of my questions, the ones that are in bold.

Like I said before, I live 15 minutes from Baltimore and 30 minutes from DC, I go to both cities. Do you really think that the crime and drugs from the inner cities have no effect on the surrounding areas? I know that you cannot be that naive.

While I'm certainly not going to give you names of my friends and family members, I would be right to accuse you of being naive if you haven't realize by now that there is police brutailty among minorities.

And I think I've answered all your other questions, if indirectly. If I haven't, re-write them.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Narmer


Oh, the one about the inner city? Well, just as my example was extreme, so is yours. However, the inner city don't come to your town and rob you and they've never pretended to protect you. ANd I said that I would understand if someone did it. That doesn't equate to actively supporting such harsh punishment on the corrupt police force.

The police are there to defend us. If they misbehave, they should be punished harshly. If you haven't seen it by now, I'm a fan of Hobbes on these matters.

No, all of my questions, the ones that are in bold.

Like I said before, I live 15 minutes from Baltimore and 30 minutes from DC, I go to both cities. Do you really think that the crime and drugs from the inner cities have no effect on the surrounding areas? I know that you cannot be that naive.

While I'm certainly not going to give you names of my friends and family members, I would be right to accuse you of being naive if you haven't realize by now that there is police brutailty among minorities.

And I think I've answered all your other questions, if indirectly. If I haven't, re-write them.

Well, for starters, read the post that you just responded to.

You said "the inner city don't come to your town and rob you"

I said "I live 15 minutes from Baltimore and 30 minutes from DC, I go to both cities. Do you really think that the crime and drugs from the inner cities have no effect on the surrounding areas?"

 

[LunarRay]

Ya gotta back away from this event and look at it with some common sense and judge the statements made by witnesses based on that view.

We know it ended when the shots stopped and began with two groups of people with very different objectives going to the same place around the same time and neither had the other as the reason to be in each other's proximity.

So .... what brought the 'wedding group' to the attention of the 'police group'? I think if we can answer that we can then better understand why it ended as it did and attach levels of credibility to the statements from both sides AFTER the initial event(s) that brought the two groups together..
We can't very well ask the fellow who died and at this point I'm not too sure I want to hear from the police who were involved. Although I would in due course... i want to hear from the folks in the nightclub... I want to test their bias... I know the police will have a story that justifies everything that occurred... and it will in some respects be supported by the witnesses inside the club... but if not fully supported then we have a place to start the debate..

Edit: I should add that White Cops and Black Cops and Brown Cops ... any Cops are all Blue Cops... and everyone else is what they are...

 

[LunarRay]

Regarding the Bible...
To those who accept Jesus as the Son Of God and the reason the 'New Testament' of the Bible exists must also remember that Jesus brought a new Covenant to the people... that the one of Moses was for the Jew...
AND.... when asked about which was the greatest Commandment Jesus responded that to Love the Father with all our Hearts and Soul... AND AND that the Second was as great as the first... To love our neighbor AS WE LOVE OURSELVES... and that upon these two ALL the laws of the Prophets are built. Somewhere in Matthew.. maybe 24...

So all the eye for an eye.. and trash like that is not for the believer of Christianity... Look not for the splinter in another's eye with a board in our own... I what I think Jesus said to do..

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Regarding the Bible...
To those who accept Jesus as the Son Of God and the reason the 'New Testament' of the Bible exists must also remember that Jesus brought a new Covenant to the people... that the one of Moses was for the Jew...
AND.... when asked about which was the greatest Commandment Jesus responded that to Love the Father with all our Hearts and Soul... AND AND that the Second was as great as the first... To love our neighbor AS WE LOVE OURSELVES... and that upon these two ALL the laws of the Prophets are built. Somewhere in Matthew.. maybe 24...

So all the eye for an eye.. and trash like that is not for the believer of Christianity... Look not for the splinter in another's eye with a board in our own... I what I think Jesus said to do..

All that sounds nice on Sunday. But come Monday, people revert back to their ignorant, stupid ways. Oh, and you forgot this little tidbit your Jesus said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34

We can debate the true meaning of that until we're blue in the face, but since this mythical Christ never really existed link (entire text), the point is incredibly moot and hinges on beliefs rather than facts, which can be interpreted by different people in different ways.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Regarding the Bible...
To those who accept Jesus as the Son Of God and the reason the 'New Testament' of the Bible exists must also remember that Jesus brought a new Covenant to the people... that the one of Moses was for the Jew...
AND.... when asked about which was the greatest Commandment Jesus responded that to Love the Father with all our Hearts and Soul... AND AND that the Second was as great as the first... To love our neighbor AS WE LOVE OURSELVES... and that upon these two ALL the laws of the Prophets are built. Somewhere in Matthew.. maybe 24...

So all the eye for an eye.. and trash like that is not for the believer of Christianity... Look not for the splinter in another's eye with a board in our own... I what I think Jesus said to do..

All that sounds nice on Sunday. But come Monday, people revert back to their ignorant, stupid ways. Oh, and you forgot this little tidbit your Jesus said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_10:34

We can debate the true meaning of that until we're blue in the face, but since this mythical Christ never really existed link (entire text), the point is incredibly moot and hinges on beliefs rather than facts, which can be interpreted by different people in different ways.

In context your link seems to clearly indicate that the sword was to divide so that the Father (in heaven) was loved more than the Father (on earth)..

But as you continue.. beliefs... of course belief is what folks grasp when they can't use their senses to confirm... and no doubt is just the same as two folks seeing the same event using their bias to describe it and producing a different version as if two events occured instead of one.

Heheheheh This thread seems to be just like that.. ya gotta cut through all that and get at the facts.. the unvarnished ones.. not all clouded by bias but truth.. and truth is the hardest thing to get at when people take their baggage to the podium. Every event is colored to produce a version closer to their underlying agenda than what an unbiased view would produce..

 

[tomywishbone]

I'm stunned. Let's see if any of the killers do any real time.

Grand jury indicts 3 in NYPD shooting By PAT MILTON, Associated Press Writer
25 minutes ago, fri, 3/15/07.

NEW YORK - Three of the five policemen whose 50-bullet barrage killed an unarmed man on his wedding day were indicted Friday in a case that heightened racial tensions and renewed allegations that the city's officers are too fast on the trigger.

Attorneys for officers Marc Cooper, Gerscard Isnora and Michael Oliver said their clients had been indicted, but they did not know what offenses the officers had been charged with. Grand jurors had considered charges including murder, manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide.

The three officers fired the most shots ? Cooper, 4, Isnora, 11, and Oliver, 31 ? in the Nov. 25 confrontation that killed 23-year-old Sean Bell and wounded two of his friends as they left Bell's bachelor party at a strip club in Queens.

The shooting stirred outrage around New York City and led to accusations of racism against police. Bell was black, as are two of his friends who were wounded in the shooting. Cooper and Isnora are black. Oliver is white.

District Attorney Richard A. Brown said only that the grand jury had reached a decision and it would be announced Monday. He gave no reason for the delay, but indictments are often kept sealed until attorneys and their clients are notified and arrangements can be made for the defendants to surrender.

A person familiar with the case told the AP that the other two officers in the shooting ? one black and one white ? were not charged. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because the grand jury's decision has not been made public.

The case also brought back painful memories of other infamous police shootings in New York City, including the 1999 killing of unarmed African immigrant Amadou Diallo, who died in a hail of 41 bullets. The officers in that case were acquitted of criminal charges.

Police union officials defended the officers, arguing they were responding to reasonable suspicions the victims were armed and dangerous.

"This indictment sends a chilling message to all New York City police officers and to all law enforcement throughout the country," said Michael Palladino, president of the Detectives' Endowment Association. "You can act in good faith and there is no margin for error."

Isnora, 28, was "very upset," attorney Philip Karasyk said. "But he is confident that once he has his day in court he will be vindicated."

The grand jury's decision came after three days of deliberations.

Anticipation has been running high around New York City about the grand jury's decision. Extra police officers were put on standby, and the mayor met with black leaders in the Queens neighborhood where the shooting occurred in hopes of defusing any tensions that might arise from the decision.

"Whatever the grand jury says ... I think you will see the people of this city behaving in an exemplary manner," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Friday. "They can be disappointed, they can express themselves ? that's freedom of speech, I don't have a problem with that. But nobody is going to go out and make our streets unsafe."

Peter St. George Davis, attorney for Sean Bell's parents, said his clients are devastated. "But they pray every day that somehow, out of their son's death will come a message or lasting legacy."

The Rev. Al Sharpton said the charges marked an important first step in the fight for justice in the case.

"The only way you make sure it doesn't happen again is you stop it, and you punish it and you send a signal that we live in a society where laws have to be respected," he said. "So there is no joy, no vengeance, no party here."

A 23-person grand jury heard the case, and 12 grand jurors needed to vote for an indictment for charges to be brought. The panel included eight blacks, seven whites, and a mix of Hispanics and Asians.

The five officers were among the more than 60 witnesses who testified before the grand jury. Survivors Trent Benefield and Joseph Guzman also gave their version, insisting the officers fired without warning.

___