Police kill wedding groom

tomywishbone

Golden Member
Oct 24, 2006
1,401
0
0
At this time it appears to some, that firing 50 shots at unarmed men may be an issue for the police. I doubt there will be any problems for the officers, but time will tell.


N.Y. police kill groom near strip club By ADAM GOLDMAN, Associated Press Writer, 2 minutes ago.

NEW YORK - Police fired 50 rounds Saturday at a car of unarmed men leaving a bachelor party at a strip club, killing the groom on his wedding day in a shooting that drew a furious outcry from family members and community leaders.

The spray of bullets hit the car 21 times, after the vehicle rammed into an undercover officer and then an unmarked NYPD minivan twice, police said. Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly would not say if the collisions were what prompted police to open fire.

It was too early to say whether the shooting was justified, Kelly said.

Police thought one of the men in the car might have had a gun. But police found no weapons.

"Although it is too early to draw conclusions about this morning's shootings ... we know that the NYPD officers on the scene had reason to believe that an altercation involving a firearm was about to happen and were trying to stop it," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said in a statement.

Kelly said the incident stemmed from an undercover operation inside the strip club. Seven officers in plain clothes were investigating the Kalua Cabaret, and five were involved in the shooting. The gunfire also hit nearby homes and a train station, though no residents were injured.

A veteran officer fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said. All the officers carried 9 mm handguns.

The groom, who was driving, was identified as Sean Bell, 23. Joseph Guzman, 31, was in the front seat and was shot at least 11 times. Trent Benefield, 23, who was in the back seat, was hit three times. Both men were taken to Mary Immaculate Hospital. Guzman was listed in critical condition and Benefield was in stable condition.

Kelly said there may have been a fourth person in the car who fled the scene.

Three officers, including the officer hit by the car, were treated and released. Another detective remained hospitalized for blood pressure, Kelly said.

Abraham Kamara, 38, who lives a few blocks from the club, said he was getting ready for work at about 4 a.m. when he heard bursts of gunfire.

"First it was like four shots," he said. "And then it was like pop-pop-pop like 12 times."

A grand jury was investigating the incident. Kelly said none of the five veteran officers had ever discharged their weapons in the line of duty. He has not been able to interview the officers because the district attorney must first complete an investigation, he said.

The undercover officers were inside the club to document illicit activity, Kelly said. With one more violation the club would be shut down, Kelly said.

He said the establishment has a "chronic history of narcotics, prostitution and weapons complaints."

The shooting drew angry protests from family members and the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Sharpton went to the hospitals where the men were taken and afterward held news conferences. At Jamaica Hospital, the civil rights advocate stood with about two dozen members of Bell's and his fiancee's family.

"I will stand with this family," he said. "This stinks. Something about the story being told did not seem right."

Sharpton said Bell and his fiancee had two children, ages 3 years and 5 months.

At Mary Immaculate Hospital, Sharpton said he was outraged to find the survivors handcuffed to their hospital beds. He said Guzman suffered 17 wounds, though it was unclear how many were bullet wounds, and Benefield was shot three times.

"We're not anti-police ... we're anti-police brutality," he said.

Robert Porter, who identified himself as Bell's first cousin, said he was supposed to be a DJ at the wedding. He said about 250 people were invited and were flying in from all over the country. He said his cousin wasn't the type to confront police and that he was "on the straight and narrow."

"I still don't want to believe it," Porter said, "a beautiful day like this, and he was going to have a beautiful wedding, he was going to live forever with his wife and children. And this happened."

In 1999, police killed Amadou Diallo, an unarmed West African immigrant who was shot 19 times in the Bronx. The four officers in that case were acquitted of criminal charges.

And in 2003, Ousmane Zongo, 43, a native of the western African country of Burkina Faso who repaired art and musical instruments in a Manhattan warehouse, was shot to death during a police raid. Zongo was hit four times, twice in the back.

___

Associated Press writers Jennifer Peltz, Tom Hays and Cristian Salazar contributed to this report.

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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

Bottom line is they wereNOT fired upon yet they fire 50 rounds???

WTFBBQ have we brought Iraqi here to the states now?
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,691
2,150
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

15 round magazines, you put one in the chamber, take the magazine out, put one more round in, then you have 16 shots for your first magazine and 15 for your second.

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

Bottom line is they wereNOT fired upon yet they fire 50 rounds???

WTFBBQ have we brought Iraqi here to the states now?

No, but running people over with your car is assault with a deadly weapon. If he drove into police vehicles and appeared intent on running somebody down, it may have been justified. I'm not saying it definitely is, but there needs to be more facts in this case.

And just to head off any stupid ramblings you might come up with Dave, calling me a rich Republican or any stupid shite like that, I'm often critical of police abusing authority and a search of my post history here would confirm that.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
Bottom line is they wereNOT fired upon yet they fire 50 rounds???

If the driver intentionally rammed them (article is unclear) that would justify the use of deadly force. As someone else said, gotta wait for more facts on this one.

To clarify, I mean I need more facts. I realize you don't.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

15 round magazines, you put one in the chamber, take the magazine out, put one more round in, then you have 16 shots for your first magazine and 15 for your second.
I understand how handguns work. I have several. But your average 9mm mag is 10 rounds, 11 with a round chambered. A 15 round mag is an extended mag, and as I said I've never seen an officer use one. They're kind of bulky and awkward in either a shoulder or waist holster. *shrug*

Edit: Went looking for pictures of 15 round Glock mags (I assume that's what they carry) and I guess maybe LEO models have wider mags with staggered rounds? The only extra capacity mags I've seen were longer than standard, rather than wider. Perhaps that's my confusion.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,691
2,150
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

Bottom line is they wereNOT fired upon yet they fire 50 rounds???

WTFBBQ have we brought Iraqi here to the states now?

Why are you so quick to throw the blame onto the Police, and completely ignore the criminals. I am not talking about just this case, I'm talking about all of the threads that you throw you opinion in that involves Police shootings.

Take a step back from your bitter hate filled life for a second and realize that all these cops that you hate for no reason have families too. They probably even shop at Walmart because the salary for cops sucks so bad that you are constantly broke. Why do you hate these brave men and women that are trying to protect your sorry butt?

 
Feb 24, 2001
14,550
4
81
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

15 round magazines, you put one in the chamber, take the magazine out, put one more round in, then you have 16 shots for your first magazine and 15 for your second.
I understand how handguns work. I have several. But your average 9mm mag is 10 rounds, 11 with a round chambered. A 15 round mag is an extended mag, and as I said I've never seen an officer use one. They're kind of bulky and awkward in either a shoulder or waist holster. *shrug*

Edit: Went looking for pictures of 15 round Glock mags (I assume that's what they carry) and I guess maybe LEO models have wider mags with staggered rounds? The only extra capacity mags I've seen were longer than standard, rather than wider. Perhaps that's my confusion.

Almost all full size 9mm handguns are 15 round magazines. Glock 226, Glock 17, Beretta 92. 15 round magazines are standard. Some states have low-capacity restrictions where they are limited to 10 rounds.

Why do you hate these brave men and women that are trying to protect your sorry butt?
Cops aren't there to protect you, they show up after the fact. You think busting hookers and drugs is protecting you?

Stick to the big stuff like child molesters, killers, thieves, etc.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,490
1,680
136
I understand how handguns work. I have several. But your average 9mm mag is 10 rounds, 11 with a round chambered. A 15 round mag is an extended mag, and as I said I've never seen an officer use one. They're kind of bulky and awkward in either a shoulder or waist holster. *shrug*

Edit: Went looking for pictures of 15 round Glock mags (I assume that's what they carry) and I guess maybe LEO models have wider mags with staggered rounds? The only extra capacity mags I've seen were longer than standard, rather than wider. Perhaps that's my confusion.


I have both a SIG 226 9mm and Para Ordance P-14 in .45 ACP. I have several High Capacity Pre-Ban Factory magazines for the gun that carry 15-rounds and everything fits in the grip quite nicely. My P-14 carries 14 .45 ACP all in a magazine that fits in the grip. Basically the magazines are double column, were for example a old M1911 Auto is a single column magazine. During the Assault Weapon Ban only 10-round magazines could be legally manufactured for sell to the public. However since the ban has expired in most states you can again purchase the regular capacity magazines which can be greater than 10. I have several friends who are police officers. One of the unofficial rules that I heard from them if there is mutlipe officers involved in a shooting the officer who doesn't fire his gun gets to do the paperwork. I have seen this multiple times over the years were one officer starts to shoot and then all the other officers start shooting and you very quickly have a cascade effect. Several years ago this happened in LA for the LASD (Los Angeles Sherrif Department) were they shot around 80 times at a vehicle in residential neighborhood and you had bullets flying all over. Luckly none of the residents were injured our killed. I believe that Law Enforcement needs to get better tatics to stop this cascading effect for firing when you have one officer setting off other officers to fire.

GB

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Almost all full size 9mm handguns are 15 round magazines. Glock 226, Glock 17, Beretta 92. 15 round magazines are standard. Some states have low-capacity restrictions where they are limited to 10 rounds.

I've rented a Glock 19 at the range before and it was only 10 rounds. Is the G17 that much bigger? And do you mean Sig 226? I'm looking at my 226 .40 right now (the .40 isn't that much larger a round than the 9mm) and I can't figure out how they'd get 15 rounds into it without a significantly wider grip.

Anyway, sorry to take this off topic, was just curious about 31 shots from 2 mags.

Edit: Brovane has a 226 9mm, so I'll trust him. Guess I should find me some higher cap mags.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,691
2,150
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

15 round magazines, you put one in the chamber, take the magazine out, put one more round in, then you have 16 shots for your first magazine and 15 for your second.
I understand how handguns work. I have several. But your average 9mm mag is 10 rounds, 11 with a round chambered. A 15 round mag is an extended mag, and as I said I've never seen an officer use one. They're kind of bulky and awkward in either a shoulder or waist holster. *shrug*

Edit: Went looking for pictures of 15 round Glock mags (I assume that's what they carry) and I guess maybe LEO models have wider mags with staggered rounds? The only extra capacity mags I've seen were longer than standard, rather than wider. Perhaps that's my confusion.


LEO mags have a 15 round capacity, they are not extended, its what I have for my glock 19. They are just wider, they do not look any different until you examine them closer, meaning they do not stick out from the bottom of the gun.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Yep, plenty of info yet to come out on this one. Looks real bad so far, but not as horrible on the surface as the Amadou Diallo case. That one will take decades for the NYPD to live down.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Those cops were there looking for trouble. Seven of them just happen to be at a strip club doing an "investigation" on a saturday night? Yeah right.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Those cops were there looking for trouble. Seven of them just happen to be at a strip club doing an "investigation" on a saturday night? Yeah right.

Dave must love you.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

15 round magazines, you put one in the chamber, take the magazine out, put one more round in, then you have 16 shots for your first magazine and 15 for your second.
I understand how handguns work. I have several. But your average 9mm mag is 10 rounds, 11 with a round chambered. A 15 round mag is an extended mag, and as I said I've never seen an officer use one. They're kind of bulky and awkward in either a shoulder or waist holster. *shrug*

Edit: Went looking for pictures of 15 round Glock mags (I assume that's what they carry) and I guess maybe LEO models have wider mags with staggered rounds? The only extra capacity mags I've seen were longer than standard, rather than wider. Perhaps that's my confusion.

No, many many handguns have larger capacities natively. My glock 22 in .40 is 15 standard. Many 9mm's are even higher capacity. 10 only became the standard after the ridiculous gun control attempts made that the arbitrary limit.
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
American police is truly scary - one would have thaught all that movie stuff is just that- movies. Apparently not....
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Gotta wait for more facts on this one, such as what prompted the shooting to begin with. As the article states, it's unknown if the vehicle collisions started it and what communication happened. 50 shots is crazy though.

On a side note, 31 rounds from one officer? Two mags? I've never seen an officer carry extended mags.

Bottom line is they were NOT fired upon yet they fire 50 rounds???

WTFBBQ have we brought Iraqi here to the states now?

Why are you so quick to throw the blame onto the Police, and completely ignore the criminals. I am not talking about just this case, I'm talking about all of the threads that you throw you opinion in that involves Police shootings.

Take a step back from your bitter hate filled life for a second and realize that all these cops that you hate for no reason have families too. They probably even shop at Walmart because the salary for cops sucks so bad that you are constantly broke.

Why do you hate these brave men and women that are trying to protect your sorry butt?

Why do you hate America?

Oooooh

Do you you feel so much safer from the big bad dead Groom out on his Bachelor party?

Do you feel so much safer from the big bad dead 92 year old Grandmother?
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,206
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
something's not right, and i don't just mean some fat fvck pigs who fired 50 times... i mean the whole ramming thing. i'm wondering if the groom had a seizure brought on by stress, which caused him to ram the car.
 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
30
91
Originally posted by: eits
something's not right, and i don't just mean some fat fvck pigs who fired 50 times... i mean the whole ramming thing. i'm wondering if the groom had a seizure brought on by stress, which caused him to ram the car.
Chances are that it was just his blood alcohol content. It was after his bachelor party. And he didn't hit any marked police cars, just unmarked, undercover cars. He probably was trying to get away, I would think, after hitting those cars.

edit: I.e., get away before the police showed up.
 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
1
0
Originally posted by: myocardia
Originally posted by: eits
something's not right, and i don't just mean some fat fvck pigs who fired 50 times... i mean the whole ramming thing. i'm wondering if the groom had a seizure brought on by stress, which caused him to ram the car.
Chances are that it was just his blood alcohol content. It was after his bachelor party. And he didn't hit any marked police cars, just unmarked, undercover cars. He probably was trying to get away, I would think, after hitting those cars.

edit: I.e., get away before the police showed up.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

Based on what we've heard/seen so far it wouldn't surprise me if the cops overreacted/got nervous after seeing the dumbass ram the car.

Still, like others here, I need a bit more information before making up my mind. So far all I have is a gut feeling.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Other possible scenario :

Undercover cops scoping the club, looking for any 'suspicious' activity.

They see group of young black men, throwing a lot of money around. They get interested. They start to move closer, which makes them a bit nervous, as you don't want MALE attention at a strip club. They decide to leave.

One of the undercover 'sees' something, maybe mistakes a cell phone for a weapon, alerts the others that this is a possible gang/threat. They start to try to surround and confront the men.

They get in their car, and men without uniforms begin to surround them with weapons drawn, so the driver freaks, thinking that these guys want to rob/kill them for their cash. He begins to drive as hard as he can to get away, crashing into other vehicles as a result.

Cops rain bullets on the car.

Just a possible scenario. I'm thinking that after the survivors get their say, that we'll have a lot more to go on. Or perhaps there was some surveillance footage. If it is obvious that the cops were in the wrong here (possible), then I hope they get nailed to the wall for murder. Never happen, I know.

Something that made me really sick was the Amadou Diallo execution. Shooting an unarmed man in a hail of bullets that continued AFTER he was on the ground, as ballistics evidence showed rounds penetrating his body lengthwise after he fell. The NYPD formed their 'line of blue' around these murdering bastards, and of course, they all got off scot free. It was almost enough to make me want to celebrate rather than mourn officers who die in similar murderous rampages. Almost. But then I'd be just as bad as they are.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: B00ne
American police is truly scary - one would have thaught all that movie stuff is just that- movies. Apparently not....

If this was a white neighborhood, reason and cool heads would've prevailed. But it's a black neighborhood, so the police shoot first and ask questions later. It depends on the color of your skin in America.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,668
3,067
136
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: B00ne
American police is truly scary - one would have thaught all that movie stuff is just that- movies. Apparently not....

If this was a white neighborhood, reason and cool heads would've prevailed. But it's a black neighborhood, so the police shoot first and ask questions later. It depends on the color of your skin in America.

just curious, you have any statistics for where most violent crime happens?
 
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