POLL ADDED: AEG and NVIDIA's "Viral"'outreach programme' targets Forums

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: SexyK
lol, classic response, didnt address any of the issues raised in my post and spewed more of the same junk you've been speweing throughout this thread. I'm wondering if you even read my post at all since you say that i haven't read the thread because i don't know that nVidia has a job listing up, yet i reference that job listing in the post you quoted!

anyway, i've read every post in the thread, and i still don't see anyone giving a legitimate explanation of why they consider this campaign unethical. Seems that the response to anyone that questions you is to impeach their character instead of addressing the issues at hand. No one has polluted this thread with more useless comments than you, so please don't bother responding with another baseless accusation and ':thumbsdown:' -- you're not doing a service to anyone.

Then here's another classic response: RTFA! Read the article! I'll post a direct quote just for you, and you can decide on whether this type of marketing is ethical or not:

But what if such groundswells of opinion were being altered, or even outright falsified, by otherwise well-respected forum members acting upon an 'agenda' laid out to them by a company with a vested interest in making sure their products were seen in the best possible light while belittling the competition? Traditional advertising is one thing - Most of us know to question the claims made in press releases and commercials - But when one of your online peers tells you that you should be thinking about buying a particular brand or model of video card, the reaction is different, and the natural reaction is to trust the information given not as a marketing ploy but as good advice based solely on personal experience.

It goes on:

Of course, this wouldn't be such a problem if the users involved in the programme disclosed this very fact, as it would allow other members to make a more precise opinion regarding the veracity of the person's claims. But, the very nature of viral marketing of this kind is in its 'secret' nature, thus naturally neither AEG nor NVIDIA want anyone to know who is in the outreach programme. Indeed, it seems clear that programme members are under some kind of NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) regarding their participation and activities. This creates a dangerous situation that could serve to damage the 'friendly, neighbourhood' atmosphere of many online communities, turning it into a more X-Files-esque 'Trust no-one' scenario.

And for those of you who got hung up on an earlier point: the AEG's membership is secretive. Not the fact that it exists, which is plainly obvious based on AEG's website, the Nvidia job posting, [/b]quotes from Nvidia employees[/b], etc. etc.

I think the issue here is that people read the title of this thread, maybe read a few words of the article, and then immediately formed an opinion. Which does us all a disservice, because after 11 pages we've determined that quite a few people haven't even read what they are arguing for or against.

Kind of sounds like a lot of voters these days, who vote for a person or a party without knowing their agenda. But that's a separate debate.

Hmmm.

What if AEG specifically instructs their members to be as impartial as possible?

What if AEG tells them fanboy tactics will result in dismissal?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they don't want them deluged with requests for free hardware?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they don't wan't to foster a kissass attitude on the board where dozens of wannabes pimp nVidia in hopes of being asked to join?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they think rival companies will use knowledge of the participants to target them with their own "members"/staff?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they think some people will disregard a valid opinion if delivered by a "gifted" writer?

Gee, there are NO OTHER possible conclusions to jump to here! Apoppin has a link to a thread with lots of terms like "it seems" and "what if".

:roll:

LOL drama queens.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Really? Where does it say they encourage anyone to evangelize? I thought it just said they supplied parts, which turns the members into evangelizers? Strange how you assume that means they tell them to, and I take it at face value and don't read anything into it?

No, it's not really all that strange now that we understand your total nvidia motivation.

 

[n7]

I love this thread, mainly because i know it frustrates Trollo, err, i mean Rollo, to no end

The amount of FUD he spews is enough to keep this forum filled with flaming idiocy forever.

I don't really care if he is affiliated with nVidia or not, his fanboism is sickening either way.

Oh, & pardon me if this is a personal attack, it seems he's allowed to bash anything he feels like to end without moderation, so why can't i ?

 

[nRollo]

Jiffy-

There's a LOT more negative ATI news than positive news for the last year and a half, so it would be hard for me to report ATI positives in good conscience.

I'd be a liar if I didn't say it amuses me somewhat to have all this negative ATI news to post, because I owe several here many such posts for every "OMFG! You bought teh haxorz 5800U and said it wasn't the worst crime ever visited on the planet evah!" BS waste of space posts this board has been subjected to because I had the audacity to use 5800s for 3 months of a 24 month period that I used 9700Pro/9800Pro for the rest of.

Oh no. I will post every single ATI blunder I come across till time ends because that is karma my friend.

On the other hand, I don't really have anything against ATI and really liked all of the many, many cards I bought with their chips, going back to VESA days. So I'll give them their due when they do things right like the X1800XL AIW, or for that matter the X1800XT now that it's priced where it should be. (or the promising X1800 Crossfire)

So that's where it's at Jiffy. I've got a bit of a grudge, but I like ATI hardware as well.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Hmmm.

What if AEG specifically instructs their members to be as impartial as possible?

What if AEG tells them fanboy tactics will result in dismissal?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they don't want them deluged with requests for free hardware?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they don't wan't to foster a kissass attitude on the board where dozens of wannabes pimp nVidia in hopes of being asked to join?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they think rival companies will use knowledge of the participants to target them with their own "members"/staff?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they think some people will disregard a valid opinion if delivered by a "gifted" writer?

Gee, there are NO OTHER possible conclusions to jump to here! Apoppin has a link to a thread with lots of terms like "it seems" and "what if".

:roll:

LOL drama queens.

Is that the imperatives they gave you Rollo? Because you've been pretty quiet up to this point and all of a sudden there's 7 taut examples right there.

All of your points regarding the AEG are valid ones, but I find it highly naive if a marketing firm working for a specific company wants a member to be as impartial as possible.

I see where you're going with it though; they would want them to be impartial regarding the product and use factual information to support their arguments.

Eg. The 7800 GTX or 7800GTX SLI is very fast; faster than the X850XT PE and even faster (in SLI) than the X1800XT, not 'the 7800GTX is 5 times faster than the competition'!! (which touches on your later point of fanboy tactics)

But it doesn't change the issue regarding ethics. If a company is giving you free products then the company's agenda is for you to push that product and you become in essence a corporate shill. You have not received a free product from the competition, have not tested the best the competition has to offer, and are thus on an unequal footing to make judgements about people's decisions.

Of course you can justify this to yourself and to everyone else by digging up dirt on the competition and keeping quiet about issues on the card you're supporting, or downplaying issues to the very least.

You could, for example make light of features of the card "SM 3.0 is very important to the future" or totally downplay features of the competition: "SM 2.0? Smack! Smack! Oooh! Shiny Pipes!"

In this light, although my hypothetical person hasn't been told to push the product, they have clearly "gotten the message" if you catch my drift: they know their place and will continue to get hardware because they do a good job of accentuating the positives of the one company and downplaying the competition.

 

[nts]

Originally posted by: Rollo
What if AEG specifically instructs their members to be as impartial as possible?

Why would they do that? Wouldn't make sense. Bash the stuff you get for free...

What if AEG tells them fanboy tactics will result in dismissal?

Again, why would they do that? Fanboys would work much better and be a lot cheaper too

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they don't want them deluged with requests for free hardware?

Nobody is going to ask the member for hardware, they would go to the company. Has anyone asked you for NVIDIA hardware because you get free Reference cards from them?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they don't wan't to foster a kissass attitude on the board where dozens of wannabes pimp nVidia in hopes of being asked to join?

Wouldn't that be good for AEG? More members...

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they think rival companies will use knowledge of the participants to target them with their own "members"/staff?

Possible that people can be bought this way. They sell out to one company then very likely they'll sell out to another (for the right price). I don't really see it though.

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they think some people will disregard a valid opinion if delivered by a "gifted" writer?

Is the opinion still valid? I think not.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: n7
I love this thread, mainly because i know it frustrates Trollo, err, i mean Rollo, to no end

The amount of FUD he spews is enough to keep this forum filled with flaming idiocy forever.

I don't really care if he is affiliated with nVidia or not, his fanboism is sickening either way.

Oh, & pardon me if this is a personal attack, it seems he's allowed to bash anything he feels like to end without moderation, so why can't i ?

The last refuge of a small mind in debate is to call your opponent names like a child on a schoolyard n7. Too bad you lack the smarts to engage me on an adult level, I don't really have much to respond to a post of your level because I haven't been a child for a long time.

Oh well, try again when you grow up and have something useful to say!

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Jiffy-

There's a LOT more negative ATI news than positive news for the last year and a half, so it would be hard for me to report ATI positives in good conscience.

I'd be a liar if I didn't say it amuses me somewhat to have all this negative ATI news to post, because I owe several here many such posts for every "OMFG! You bought teh haxorz 5800U and said it wasn't the worst crime ever visited on the planet evah!" BS waste of space post this board has been subjected to because I had the audacity to use 5800s for 3 moths of a 24 month period that I used 9700Pro/9800Pro for the rest of.

Oh no. I will post every single ATI blunder I come across till time ends because that is karma my friend.

On the other hand, I don't really have anything against ATI and really liked all of the many, many cards I bought with their chips, going back to VESA days. So I'll give them their due when they do things right like the X1800XL AIW, or for that matter the X1800XT now that it's priced where it should be. (or the promising X1800 Crossfire)

So that's where it's at Jiffy. I've got a bit of a grudge, but I like ATI hardware as well.

Here's the thing, Rollo: your posts leave no other alternative: either you are a corporate shill, or you're a complete and total fanboy. Your posts allow either and I have no idea if it is one or the other. I have many hypotheses, and you could very well just be a total Nvidia fanboy, in part because you have a "friend" who works there, gives you driver information, info on new cards, etc.

You even admit to taking a sort of sadistic pleasure from watching ATI squirm regarding issues with Crossfire, management, and missed product releases. What kind of person takes pleasure from that!?!?

By the way, did Nvidia change their MSRP on the 512MB 7800GTX, did your buddy supply you with bad information, or did you just use a bit of wordplay when you said people would be "amazed" by the price of the 512MB 7800GTX? Because I do find $750 per card "amazing," but not in the 'run out and buy one right away' sense! But excitement posts such as your own did produce a lot of positive buzz for Nvidia; combined with holding up supply Nvidia is making good money on the 512MB 7800GTX, and reaping fat profits on every sale.

From my point of view, nothing has been proven, but nothing has to. It is as it has always been - you'll tell us the next ATI blunder, or when Nvidia is about to launch something nice and competitive. So thanks for being such a big help .
----------------------

I've tried to be impartial as possible myself; even when I bought ATI hardware a couple generations in a row, it was because of the great prices I got and because the product was solid (deals on ATI cards are often easier to come by in Canada). But Rollo works hard to show that anyone buying a product is in a specific 'camp,' forcing people to defend themselves just for their hardware choices. Quite frankly, this attitude sickens me, and I think it's given many of us a bad name, and has contributed to video turning into such a battleground.

Even "speculation" threads are flamewars these days, because instead of how fast a card is predicted to be, it's 'how fast will the two cards that compete be, and who will be the winner.' Honestly, the winners have been ATI and Nvidia, who are both charging premiums for the honour of buying their cards these days, and the losers have been consumers, who have fought ATI and Nvidia's holy wars for them, using their wallets as weapons.

 

[nRollo]

Well, conspiracy kiddies, that ends my comments on the "great AEG mystery".

I can speculate about them all night, you can speculate the opposite all night, in the end, nothing will be accomplished.

To be honest, I don't care if every user on AT is a "focus group member" for one company or another.

Know why? I'm not stupid, and if someone tells me something that isn't true, I can recognize it. An ATI guy couldn't say "Our card leads the competition by a 50% performance delta on every game!" and get away with it. On the other hand, if that guy posted, "I have the new Crossfire rig, I play these games, I've had no problems so far, and I get these fps" I might be inclined to believe them if the traditional reviews said the same.

So carry on without me, I'm sure you'll do fine. :beer:

 

[RobertR1]

Originally posted by: Rollo

What if AEG specifically instructs their members to be as impartial as possible?

What if AEG tells them fanboy tactics will result in dismissal?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they don't want them deluged with requests for free hardware?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they don't wan't to foster a kissass attitude on the board where dozens of wannabes pimp nVidia in hopes of being asked to join?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they think rival companies will use knowledge of the participants to target them with their own "members"/staff?

What if AEG wants them anonymous because they think some people will disregard a valid opinion if delivered by a "gifted" writer?

Gee, there are NO OTHER possible conclusions to jump to here! Apoppin has a link to a thread with lots of terms like "it seems" and "what if".

:roll:

LOL drama queens.

Yeah these people are really out to prove your points: http://www.aeginfo.com/about.shtml

"Our specialty is working with editors in enthusiast and consumer media to obtain maximum exposure for our clients? products, while identifying and cultivating influential online communities to generate grassroots buzz and positive word-of-mouth."

"From my perspective, the most powerful form of marketing for any entertainment property is 'positive word of mouth,' and the Internet is the ideal communication vehicle to help spread that buzz. Arbuthnot recognizes this like no other agency I've worked with, and knows what it takes to build this 'must-have' buzz." I recall something like "From what my source tells me and from what I've seen the 7800GTX 512 will be the MUST have card! You'll be really surprised by the price and availability! Just hold on!!!" <----Guess who!?

Marketing by nature is biased. AEG is at the extreme end of marketing company. All your points of defense are garbage.

Bye now.

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: n7
I love this thread, mainly because i know it frustrates Trollo, err, i mean Rollo, to no end

The amount of FUD he spews is enough to keep this forum filled with flaming idiocy forever.

I don't really care if he is affiliated with nVidia or not, his fanboism is sickening either way.

Oh, & pardon me if this is a personal attack, it seems he's allowed to bash anything he feels like to end without moderation, so why can't i ?

The last refuge of a small mind in debate is to call your opponent names like a child on a schoolyard n7. Too bad you lack the smarts to engage me on an adult level, I don't really have much to respond to a post of your level because I haven't been a child for a long time.

Oh well, try again when you grow up and have something useful to say!

Would you really like me to start linking to the zillion threads where you argue over BS on a much lower than schoolyard level?

I am so sick of reading your biased crap.

Not because you aren't knowledgeable, because you are.
You know more about video cards than i ever will.

But you can't seem to wrap your head around the concept of keeping an open mind, & actually helping people out, rather than spreading FUD.

One of the stupidest things a person can do is to close their mind to other options.

I used to be an ATi fan before i knew much about hardware.
Then i realized i was basing some foolish emotion over some freaking PCB & silicone, & i now do my best to subjectively look at things.


I might be just crazy, but to look at one brand & say the other brand isn't good based on just one experience or what you want to feel for some odd reason is just foolishness.

So how is it that such a knowledgeable person like yourself can't figure that one out?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: Rollo
Jiffy-

There's a LOT more negative ATI news than positive news for the last year and a half, so it would be hard for me to report ATI positives in good conscience.

I'd be a liar if I didn't say it amuses me somewhat to have all this negative ATI news to post, because I owe several here many such posts for every "OMFG! You bought teh haxorz 5800U and said it wasn't the worst crime ever visited on the planet evah!" BS waste of space post this board has been subjected to because I had the audacity to use 5800s for 3 moths of a 24 month period that I used 9700Pro/9800Pro for the rest of.

Oh no. I will post every single ATI blunder I come across till time ends because that is karma my friend.

On the other hand, I don't really have anything against ATI and really liked all of the many, many cards I bought with their chips, going back to VESA days. So I'll give them their due when they do things right like the X1800XL AIW, or for that matter the X1800XT now that it's priced where it should be. (or the promising X1800 Crossfire)

So that's where it's at Jiffy. I've got a bit of a grudge, but I like ATI hardware as well.

Here's the thing, Rollo: your posts leave no other alternative: either you are a corporate shill, or you're a complete and total fanboy. Your posts allow either and I have no idea if it is one or the other. I have many hypotheses, and you could very well just be a total Nvidia fanboy, in part because you have a "friend" who works there, gives you driver information, info on new cards, etc.

You even admit to taking a sort of sadistic pleasure from watching ATI squirm regarding issues with Crossfire, management, and missed product releases. What kind of person takes pleasure from that!?!?

By the way, did Nvidia change their MSRP on the 512MB 7800GTX, did your buddy supply you with bad information, or did you just use a bit of wordplay when you said people would be "amazed" by the price of the 512MB 7800GTX? Because I do find $750 per card "amazing," but not in the 'run out and buy one right away' sense! But excitement posts such as your own did produce a lot of positive buzz for Nvidia; combined with holding up supply Nvidia is making good money on the 512MB 7800GTX, and reaping fat profits on every sale.

From my point of view, nothing has been proven, but nothing has to. It is as it has always been - you'll tell us the next ATI blunder, or when Nvidia is about to launch something nice and competitive. So thanks for being such a big help .

Last response because the "forum judo" and "Neo" comments gave me a laugh.

1. Don't misunderstand me taking some small pleasure in sticking it to ATIdiots by posting ATI woes with wanting ill for ATI.

2. MSRP on 512 7800GTXs hasn't changed, retailers gouging cannot be predicted.

3. Do not confuse retailers gouging with nVidia making additional money. nVidia sells chips to OEMs, OEMs sell cards to retailers- retailers make the additional profit.

4. Supposedly nV was shipping 4000 512s a week at first. I didn't know the Inquirer/other sites would post info shortly after I did, I only wanted to save people from spending $600-$700 on an inferior X1800XT when I knew the 512s would be out within two weeks. 1000s bought 512s for $700, would you thank me if I had stopped you from paying that for a X1800XT?

And you're welcome!

 

[jiffylube1024]

Quod Erat Demonstrandum?

 

[mindless1]

Here's the thing, Rollo: your posts leave no other alternative: either you are a corporate shill, or you're a complete and total fanboy.

Personally, I prefer dealing with nVidia products for reasons I dont' expect anyone else to agree with, reasons like a dozen servers with ATI driver entries in Add/Remove programs, which don't remove, reasons like ATI marketing products that aren't sufficiently supplied, missing yields. I don't expect anyone to agree with these points and certianly nVidia is not blameless in other areas either so other variables could make someone prefer ATI products, but the point being anyone might have a reason to prefer one product, become more familiar with that manufacturer's wares for their own reasons and thus have more hands-on experience. I tend to believe that which product has 5% better framerate for "X" dollars is among the least significant variables, even which manufacturer you deal with can matter far more, but I digress...

Therein lies a problem, that from a technical point of view, it's reasonably valid to suggest products one knows, first-hand will work at a required function, rather than merely relying on somebody's video game benchmarks (review). Unfortunately it means that even if someone weren't a paid endorser they are indirectly susceptible to marketing campaigns that include product givewways. I am NOT suggesting this within the context of Rollo, rather deliberately ignoring the whole argue-with-Rollo subtopic entirely as it's really not so useful to start labeling as "shill or fanboy" rather than only "fanboy" Having yet one more label to use in discounting a post is only another distraction.

How many people have you come across that admit to being a shill? Certainly they exist but would not come out with that except upon termination of participation in a (forum, not necessarily a website *topic* forum but any venue) or if caught red-handed with damning evidence.

We can point fingers at nVidia and yet, how hard or obvious would it be for a company to determine a need to, and specifically request that their use of a viral marketing firm be inconspicuous if not as anonymous as possible? I don't take this specific evidence of anything more than that nVidia didn't find it necessary to hide their involvement with AEG. I'd find it unbelievable that nVidia didn't know AEG had their logo up, and likewise unbelievable that AEG wouldn't pull the logo at nVidia's request if there was soething to hide.

Does it mean they're not pulling underhanding marketing through AEG? Not necessarily, but they could be using a different firm, as could ATI. I have fair confidence that both of them have people dedicated to digging up dirt on the other for marketing purposes, that AEG is likely the least of our concerns rather than the "evil" we don't know about yet.