Poll: Atheist or Agnostic?

[her209]

Originally posted by: icejunkie
Also, some people don't believe in God just for a sense of believing. Some people could piss on religion yet still believe there is some sort of supreme being, just because they find it highly improbably that everything around them is a coincidence.

Yeah, religion implies that God wants us to act a certain way and do certain things. For all we know, God couldn't give two sh!ts about us.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

haha, i love stirring you fvcks up.

What do you mean by "stirring [us] up"? Are you saying that you weren't really serious about your arguments -- as in, you know that they're bogus? Or do you mean that you've already made up your mind and you were not serious about honestly considering the issue? If so, then does that mean you are blathering for no reason other than to cause disruption?

I guess I fear God and you guys don't.

One problem I have with believing in God is that I could never buy the idea that any God worthy of the moniker should be something to fear -- at all -- even in the slightest. I have a deep concern for any type of person that would worship and fear the same thing simultaneously and call it "God," and even moreso I am suspicious of those that attempt to convince me and others of their same odd devotion to the thing they fear.

Sorry to hear that.

You don't have to be.

-Garth

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: icejunkie

I find it hard to swallow that the universe is a whole big fvckin coincidence, just look at how complex life forms we are and how complex the universe is.

"Coincidence," isn't what must necessarily describe the structure of a strictly naturalistic universe. If you're going to reject atheism, then at least do it for a good reason rather than this one.

-Garth

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: JackBurton

OH MY LEPRECHAUN! That happened to you too?! Maybe NOW TechBoyJK will acknowledge the existence of Leprechauns. There is just no denying them now. The only thing about Leprechauns though is, sometimes you pray to them, but you don't get what you want. But you know what they say, Leprechauns work in mysterious ways. It's just a part of their plan.

When you pray to the Great Leprechaun (PBUH) and you don't get what you want, that's just the the Great Leprechaun answering your prayer request in the negative, and telling you that He knows what's best for you -- which He does, being the Great Leprechaun, and all.

I prayed for a the Great Leprechaun to fill my empty box of Lucky Charms, but He answered, "no." I still keep that empty box as evidence of the answered prayer, though.

-Garth

That's just the Leprechaun saying, "no more Lucky Charms for your fat ass. It's diet time for you." He is truly wise.

haha, i love stirring you fvcks up.

What did you stir up? I LOVE it when religious people come into a Agnostic\Atheist debate. It's like someone retarded trying to join in a discussion between two scientists. It's quite funny.

you have no soul.

I know, and neither do you.

 

[ktehmok]

Religion is a refuge for the weak-minded.

 

[Rayden]

This may have been said before, but you can't really be an athiest. To say there is no god requires you to know everything, therefore being a god. :/

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: ctracyw
an agnostic is just an atheist who is afraid to commit....

no, its simply not making the mistake inherent to all religions. arrogant belief of bs without a shred of proof.

and as i'm sure its been said before..all religious people are atheists. they just disbelieve in all the other religions gods.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Rayden
This may have been said before, but you can't really be an athiest. To say there is no god requires you to know everything, therefore being a god. :/

I refuted this nonsense already. Atheists don't necessarily purport to know that there is no God -- they simply do not believe in one. That's what it means to be an atheist. All I need to know is that I've never been sufficiently convinced to warrant belief in the idea, and that I know with certainty.

Of course, all this was covered already earlier in the thread, had you read it.

-Garth

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

haha, i love stirring you fvcks up.

What do you mean by "stirring [us] up"? Are you saying that you weren't really serious about your arguments -- as in, you know that they're bogus? Or do you mean that you've already made up your mind and you were not serious about honestly considering the issue? If so, then does that mean you are blathering for no reason other than to cause disruption?

I guess I fear God and you guys don't.

One problem I have with believing in God is that I could never buy the idea that any God worthy of the moniker should be something to fear -- at all -- even in the slightest. I have a deep concern for any type of person that would worship and fear the same thing simultaneously and call it "God," and even moreso I am suspicious of those that attempt to convince me and others of their same odd devotion to the thing they fear.

Sorry to hear that.

You don't have to be.

-Garth

when I say I fear god, i don't fear that "god" may be cruel to me, other than I believe, not as fact, but as faith and because of experience, but that GOD has complete control over our reality because he created it and can destroy it. Its like being a fish in a fish bowl. I can't explain to you how the food gets in the bowl, only that it happens. I can swim to the top of the water where the food appears, but after that, I can't comprehend what it took to get the food there. As the fish, I can't comprehend the reality outside the fish bowl and never will. However, I've come to realize that if the god of my fish bowl can make food appear at the edge of reason (the top of the water) it can probably excercise even more control over my environment.

Its whatever. I just cant help but feel, on both an emotional and physical level that there is something of greater dimension than we can fathom is out there and supercedes the reach of the human mind. I think we are limited by our senses.

We can argue this all night, and honestly, its basically an endless loop. You guys want proof to believe it, while I don't feel I need it, and I guess I feel that way because of personal experience. Perhaps, subconsiously, I want to think there is a GOD because if I don't and base everything on chance, I feel very alone. ... but I dont think thats it.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Do you believe there is no Santa Claus? I could argue that if you rule out the possibility of Santa Claus, you are stupid.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Rayden
This may have been said before, but you can't really be an athiest. To say there is no god requires you to know everything, therefore being a god. :/

I refuted this nonsense already. Atheists don't necessarily purport to know that there is no God -- they simply do not believe in one. That's what it means to be an atheist. All I need to know is that I've never been sufficiently convinced to warrant belief in the idea, and that I know with certainty.

Of course, all this was covered already earlier in the thread, had you read it.

-Garth

Garth, man, I'm no authority in this subject. Are you? Why did you criticize me for dismissing someone's belief that there is no God as nonsense, yet you can dismiss someone else's belief as nonsense in the same manner? I am absolutely certain that there are many college classes that will give me all kinds of new perceptions into reality, evolution, creationism, etc. I was wrong to jump all over you guys with my perspective especiallly sense my perspective as a believer wasn't even asked for in this thread.

However, I'm already convicted in one certain principle, that there is a supreme creator with a master design. How deep this design reaches into the daily workings of our lives is unknown to me. The design could stop at creating earth and stimulating the process of evolution from the first cell, or it could reach as far into as playing an active role in every decision we make.

I'm stepping off my high horse for a minute, why dont you step off yours?

Back to my fish bowl analogy, you seem to me, like the fish. You look at the food appearing as part of the randomness of the universe, and refuse to believe that something outside the bowl is capable of putting that food there. Its a dimension outside the bowl, and you dismiss it because you can't wrap your mind around it in a way that you can believe. I guess its easier for you to just dismiss everything as random chance than to percieve the reality that there might be a conciousness greater than our own.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
Do you believe there is no Santa Claus? I could argue that if you rule out the possibility of Santa Claus, you are stupid.

yea, its an endless loop. it can go either way depending on what you believe.

 

[DannyBoy]

Agnostic

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK

Garth, man, I'm no authority in this subject. Are you?

I am an atheist, so I think that should count for something, shouldn't it? Why do all these non-atheists feel that they get to decide what it means to be an atheist? That's like me, an atheist, telling you what it means to be a theist. I hope you can understand how absurd that is.

Apart from that, I don't know what you believe would qualify me as an authority, nor do I understand why you think it is pertinent. My arguments stand or fall on their own merits, not my authority.

Why did you criticize me for dismissing someone's belief that there is no God as nonsense,

Because your dismissal was nothing more than ad hom, that's why.

yet you can dismiss someone else's belief as nonsense in the same manner?

Well... in this case it certainly is nonsense.

I am absolutely certain that there are many college classes that will give me all kinds of new perceptions into reality, evolution, creationism, etc. I was wrong to jump all over you guys with my perspective especiallly sense my perspective as a believer wasn't even asked for in this thread.

Apology accepted.

[snip]

Back to my fish bowl analogy, you seem to me, like the fish. You look at the food appearing as part of the randomness of the universe, and refuse to believe that something outside the bowl is capable of putting that food there.

You analogy is inept. No "outside the bowl(universe)" has ever been demonstrated to exist even as a meaningful reference, nor in reality does anything of substance ever appear from "outside the fish bowl" -- wherever that is.

Its a dimension outside the bowl, and you dismiss it because you can't wrap your mind around it in a way that you can believe.

Its not my fault that I can't "wrap my mind around" things that do not make sense to begin. When you can demonstrate the actual existence of this "dimension" that you claim exists, then we can worry about whether or not anyone can comprehend it.

Also, you realize that this argument is still the same fallacious ad hominem you made at the beginning of this thread, don't you. Is that really the best argument you can muster? You might as well have told me that I'm wrong because I'm a doodoo-head.

I guess its easier for you to just dismiss everything as random chance than to percieve the reality that there might be a conciousness greater than our own.

I've already said several times in the thread that "random chance" is not the only alternative to a theistic universe, and it isn't. In fact, according to our best observations, reality is best described as semi-deterministic -- it behaves probablisitically, but we can determine those probabilities with very high certainty. According other feasible hypotheses, it may be that at any given moment reality features many, many state vectors in superposition, each one materializing into a unique and valid reality upon decoherence. I realize that you probably don't know much about the fine structure of reality, and it's okay because not many people do, but the point is that you should find out more about it before spouting-off with this "random chance" strawman. It just doesn't describe reality.

-Garth

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: her209
If the universe cannot be created without God, then who created God? Similarly, if God was all knowing, then does he know what he's going to do before he does it?

Its questions like that, that caused me to hate going to sunday school. Noting ever fricken made sense.

 

[PaperclipGod]

Everything about our existence is "random" - we only perceive it as some intricately designed reality because we have no reference point other than this random existence itself. It's not as if we can say "oh, well look at how crazy that universe over there is... obviously we're of some sort of intelligent design!"

 

[her209]

From an earlier post you stated:

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
To many things have happened to me because of prayer and or odd coincidence to conciously dismiss that their is grand design in my life and how things are playing out.

Now you state this:

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
How deep this design reaches into the daily workings of our lives is unknown to me.

So which is it?

 

[kduncan5]

Agnostic. I question the existence of an all powerful deity, I prefer to believe in the Big Bang, the Theory of Evolution, and that the bible was written as a basic set of guidelines to live by. But how can anyone know beyond a shadow of doubt? An Atheist absolutely does not believe in any god(s), I merely question the existence of any omnipotent being watching over me and mine.

If there was at one time an entity who was capable of influencing life on this planet, that entity has been gone for a long long time. -kd5-

 

[PaperclipGod]

I think you need to define "God" before you ask this atheist/agnostic question.

If "God" is described in the classic christian sense - guy with an antfarm - then call me an atheist. If we're defining "God" as any type of intelligence that has - knowingly or not - influenced or given rise to our existence, then call me agnostic.

I just find it infinitely pretentious to imagine a God who has nothing better to do than play The Sims on a cosmic scale.

 

[ToeJam13]

I'm agnostic.

I grew up as an atheist. As a highly technical person who took a lot of science classed throughout my life, the concept of an almighty god really doesn't sit well with me.

That said, there are a lot of fascinating things in the universe that just can't be explained. The more deeply I look at them, the more amazed I am that they came together in the fashion that they did. Physics, nature, natural selection and such can explain the "how", but it doesn't quite fulfill my understanding of the "why".

I also agree with PaperclipGod - there may be a greater power in the universe, but who says that it has to be some supernatural being with magical powers? It may just be a super intelligent being that can manipulate our universe in such a way that is beyond all our comprehension. We can't disprove anything at this point, even if its likelihood is quite small. Recall the final scene in the movie "Men in Black" when they panned out of our universe, and we saw it for little more than a marble? Time, space and size are all relative, ya know...

If you were to transport a citizen of an ancient world from 4,000-BC to modern day, they would think that we control the power of the gods. Imagine a race that has 6,000 million years of technological advancement over us rather than 6,000?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Ok guys.

I will offer a proof that God does not exist.

P1: There is evil in this world.
P2: A god that does not stop evil is not all good (omni-benevolent)
P3: A god that cannot stop evil is not omnipotent.
Thus, God does not exist.

The other idea is that God is human creation. You think of that and you go what? This is not exactly the same as the concept of God created humans. Rather, we look at ourselves and we look at deficiencies like mortality, limited knowledge, and all the things we lack, and we are disappointed. We create this idea of God which contains all the things that we are not. If anyone remembers that song Vertical Horizon - Everything You Want, you'll remember the lyrics "He's everything in side of you that you wish you could be." God carries qualities that we wish we could have--immortality, omnipotence, omnipresence, supreme intelligence, etc. So really, we use this idea of God to comfort ourselves and it's a way of dealing with our finite selves.

I really upset someone last night about what I said about religion apparently. She thought I bashed her xanga post or something. She quoted the part of Angels & Demons where Vittoria was talking about science and religion searching for the same thing. I agree with that actually. Science and religion shouldn't be enemies. Furthermore, we shouldn't take the existence of God to be something that needs to be reasoned or proven. Just like with these proofs above I can offer you counterproofs which demonstrate the existence of God. I think we just need to take religion as subjective reality. It's faith-based.

 

[PaperclipGod]

MOTHERFSCKING PIECE OF SH!T JUST DELETED WHAT I WROTE FOR THE PAST 30 MINUTES

"OH GEE WHIZ SORRY YOU SAID A BAD WORD. NOW YOU HAVE TO REWRITE EVERYTHING."

Talk about fvcking obscene.

 

[dhslammer]

Originally posted by: SWScorch
I was atheist for a long time before I realized that if there is no way to prove there is a god, there is also no way to prove there is NOT a god. So, I don't believe but I'm not ruling out the possibility.

When there is no evidence either way then the burden of proof is to prove that it exists. The burden of proof is proving that there is a god. Until there is evidence it is assumed that there is no god.



"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts




Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear. Thomas Jefferson

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. Benjamin Franklin

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
I don't see why people care what other people think. Believe what you want to believe and don't worry about what others think.

Insecurity and fear create in people a need to control other individuals -- what they do and what they think. Freedom in others is not tolerable to the insecure person -- others must be controlled lest the illegitimacies of the insecure person be exposed -- to the insecure person himself. Religion deals with the unknowable unknowns, which are the source of human fears. Therefore, freedom of religious belief in others is intolerable to the neurotically insecure.
Those who bathe themselves in these fears rely on the beliefs of others to validate themselves. Whichever way they believe (be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or atheist), then everyone else must believe the same or else their own beliefs are eroded in spasms of self-doubt. Their illogical faiths MUST be so self-evident that no one would dare believe otherwise, and their lack of logic will lead them to the most outrageous falsehoods, strawmen, statements of ignorance, and lies -- which they themselves swallow without questioning -- as was evidenced by 99% of the posts in this thread.

The fact is that atheism is a faith. The atheist believes in the non-existence of God. Logically, neither the existence nor the non-existence of God can be proven. Therefore, belief in the non-existence of God is a belief in something that can never be proven, and as such fits the definition of a faith.

Now, as was already evidenced in this thread, the strawman of being unable to disprove the existence of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy will be brought up. Pathetic lack of logic. Who puts the gifts under the Christmas tree or the coins under the pillow? The answer proves the non-existence of said imaginary figures, and if you don't know, go run back to your mommy.
edit: and to Jack, if that pot o' gold ain't at the end of a rainbow, then the existence of the leprechauns is logically disproven as well. Now work on a REAL argument for once, and not these pathetic strawmen to justify your ignorance and insecurity.

 

[Promethply]

Yeah, I believe that it's impossible to know whether there's a God.