Poll: Creation vs Evolution

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Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Can we end this kind of crap already? I am a practicing Catholic, and I love the Church, but come on, anyone who doesn't have their head stuck up their ass knows we evolved. End of story. Period.

Haha! Don't think I've ever quite heard it put like that before!


Funny how so many Christians I talk to say that they don't believe the Old Testament, but Genesis is correct. Uh, if this were a logic table, there'd be some serious problems with that reasoning, but I've often found that logic and religion don't mix very well.


Man created God in his own image
Darn straight.


<< and we've no evidence which is sufficient to prove that biogenesis is impossible >>

...thus proving it is a bunk theory...


Hmm, many years back, there was no evidence that bacteria even existed. Bunk theory I guess?


Just saw your sig, csiro - Getting kicked in the nuts hurts!
Good words of wisdom there.

 

SpecialEd

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,110
0
0
I'm a christian, I believe in the old testament... I also believe in evolution. Personally, I don't see any conflict with the creation story and the theory of evolution. Some fellow Christians just have every story soo damn literally. The stories in the bible are to be interpreted and abstracted from, not to be taken literally.
Creation story vs Evolution:

First there was nothing... Earth didn't exsist at some point in the past... hmm makes sense.
God created all creatures... Life came to be on Earth... no problems with that.


Humans fell from grace... Humans used to be like other creatures, but now they are different. Sounds like evolution to me!


The bible isn't a science book, its a collection of stories recorded over the ages that speaks of human morals and faith. I don't really care if Noah or Adam ever really exsisted. Whats more important are the lessons learned from these characters and how I can apply those lessons to improve my community and own way of living.
 

Maetryx

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2001
4,849
1
81


<< Alright, I'll try to explain it one more time:

[explanation deleted]

Anyway, since we've no reason to assume that any supernatural power is or was ever present in this universe ... we'll therefore have to conclude that for now biogenesis is how 'it' happened.
>>



I have multiple problems with this statement. For one there *are* reasons to believe (not assume) that a supernatural power is or was present outside (not inside) this universe. You don't have to believe those reasons, but I do think you have to admit that people do have reasons for their beliefs. Atheists hold no monopoly on reason and have their own abundance of blind faith (as do the religious).

It can be shown by science that the universe is finite. It had a beginning. Probably all of us believe in cause and effect. That leads to a logical problem with the beginning of the universe. What caused it? A lot of people believe that an eternal supernatural power is the most reasonable explanation for the universe beginning.
 

LordMaul

Lifer
Nov 16, 2000
15,168
1
0
*stands behind Maetryx*

I'm supporting this guy...


Why can't the flaming stop?? Who the hell cares the you think? I post it 'cause I have nothing better to do at the moment. With two people telling each other to go to hell, and neither of them taking either's advice, the flame war goes no where.

But for the record, I'm pro-creation, pro-Christianity, and anti-atheism/evolution. Oh, and if you believe in God, HOW the HELL can you believe in Evolution?! The two theories contradict each other to an incredible extent.

Bye now.
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,445
128
106
Let's keep arguing this until we reach a conclusion. Then it's settled for the whole world, once and for all, whether we were created or evolved.

What point does a flamewar about this topic have?
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
136
This poll sucks, the questions are loaded, and it is impossible for me to answer accurately.

The evidence for evolution is broad, comprehensive, and one of the most well-supported scientific theories in existence.

Believe it or not, it will not change the truth of it, nor will it stop evolution from working on us.

Disbelief is not based on logically-dervied and critically reviewed evidence, but rather emotion, mysticism and wishful-thinking (as well as a little fear and ignorance.)
 

csH4x0r

Member
Sep 12, 2001
102
0
0


<< Let's keep arguing this until we reach a conclusion. Then it's settled for the whole world, once and for all, whether we were created or evolved.

What point does a flamewar about this topic have?
>>




thats good reasoning





btw, Genesis was never ment to be interpeted literally. it was originally interpreted as a poem/song. -my old testament prof, who happens to be a devout christian and the head of that department here at ECU


/edit for typos =]
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0


<< Oh, and if you believe in God, HOW the HELL can you believe in Evolution?! The two theories contradict each other to an incredible extent. >>



Dude, you're giving me and every other religious person with a brain a bad name.....
Kindly purchase a
Get Out Of Hell Free Card and move along. Did it ever occur to you that God, in His infinite wisdom CREATED EVOLUTION?! It's AMAZING! Who would dream of such of HERESEY!

--Jzero--card-carrying Christian, believer of both Creation and Evolution, born-again Heretic.
 

ThisIsMatt

Banned
Aug 4, 2000
11,820
1
0
Since, from an evolution perspective, humans took millions of years to evolve to what they are today, how come they've accelerated in their intelligence so quickly over the last, say, 5000 years?
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Some fellow Christians just have every story soo damn literally. The stories in the bible are to be interpreted and abstracted from, not to be taken literally.
And how exactly do you know this? Thought the Bible was the word of God? If he wanted us to do certain things, why give cryptic messages? "Do not kill" - so that's up for interpretation too?

Humans fell from grace... Humans used to be like other creatures, but now they are different. Sounds like evolution to me!
I love it how knowledge was the thing that made us evil. God wanted us ignorant apparently. Why else condemn us all to damnation for becoming aware? Plus, we were just kids then when we were created. Why curse us all forever, instead of maybe, just a spanking or something like that? Quite a vicious God there it seems...
"You stole from the cookie jar young man! I condemn you to a life of misery and suffering!!"
Hey, God did that to us in Genesis.

A lot of people believe that an eternal supernatural power is the most reasonable explanation for the universe beginning.
Let's continue the cause and effect arguement on that. What caused the supernatural power to come into existance? If it's ok to say it always was, why not the arguement that the universe always existed in some form?

nor will it stop evolution from working on us.
Evolution has virtually been stopped in us, or at least, natural evolution has. The weak now survive on a regular basis. There are no means to eliminate the defective genes anymore like nature has. I myself am among the weak. I would have died many years ago from a variety of afflictions. My parents would both have died as kids too of serious illnesses. The chlorine in the gene pool is being destroyed.

Since, from an evolution perspective, humans took millions of years to evolve to what they are today, how come they've accelerated in their intelligence so quickly over the last, say, 5000 years?
Technology. Simple as that. Was a time that a sharp rock was called technology. Then someone built on it. Sharp stick - sharp rock. Hmm, put rock on stick, long sharper stick.
Once we acheived a sufficient level of intelligence to make tools, and communicate amongst each other, we could improve tools. Sort of a primitive Moore's Law.
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
In re"Creation (Genesis) and evolution have _absolutely_nothing_ to do with each other. Since we're talking about how life started, it's about Genesis vs. Biogenesis, i.e., the creation of life by some supernatural power vs. lifeless materials forming the basic elements life exists out of (e.g., amino-acids), from which the first life-forms (being simply bacteria) were formed."

evolution -"Organic evolution as opposed to belief in the special creation of each individual species as an immutable form, conceives of life as having had its beginnings in a simple primordial protoplasmic mass (probably originating in the sea) from which, through the long eras of time, arose all subsequent living forms." Encyclopedia.com

evolution -"Organic evolution conceives of life as having begun as a simple, primordial protoplasmic mass from which arose, through time, all subsequent living forms." TelexExternal LinkInternal LinkInventory Cache

"Evolution is not so much a modern discovery as some of its advocates would have us believe. It made its appearance early in Greek philosophy, and maintained its position more or less, with the most diverse modifications, and frequently confused with the idea of emanation, until the close of ancient thought. The Greeks had, it is true, no term exactly equivalent to " evolution"; but when Thales asserts that all things originated from water; when Anaximenes calls air the principle of all things, regarding the subsequent process as a thinning or thickening, they must have considered individual beings and the phenomenal world as, a result of evolution, even if they did not carry the process out in detail. Anaximander is often regarded as a precursor of the modem theory of development. He deduces living beings, in a gradual development, from moisture under the influence of warmth, and suggests the view that men originated from animals of another sort, since if they had come into existence as human beings, needing fostering care for a long time, they would not have been able to maintain their existence." The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Creation "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life" Genesis 1:20






 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
Agnostic "One of those persons who disclaim any knowledge of God or of the origin of the universe or of anything but material phenomena" Blackie's Large-Type Concise English Dictionary 1948

 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< In re"Creation (Genesis) and evolution have _absolutely_nothing_ to do with each other. Since we're talking about how life started, it's about Genesis vs. Biogenesis, i.e., the creation of life by some supernatural power vs. lifeless materials forming the basic elements life exists out of (e.g., amino-acids), from which the first life-forms (being simply bacteria) were formed."

evolution -"Organic evolution as opposed to belief in the special creation of each individual species as an immutable form, conceives of life as having had its beginnings in a simple primordial protoplasmic mass (probably originating in the sea) from which, through the long eras of time, arose all subsequent living forms." Encyclopedia.com

evolution -"Organic evolution conceives of life as having begun as a simple, primordial protoplasmic mass from which arose, through time, all subsequent living forms." TelexExternal LinkInternal LinkInventory Cache

"Evolution is not so much a modern discovery as some of its advocates would have us believe. It made its appearance early in Greek philosophy, and maintained its position more or less, with the most diverse modifications, and frequently confused with the idea of emanation, until the close of ancient thought. The Greeks had, it is true, no term exactly equivalent to " evolution"; but when Thales asserts that all things originated from water; when Anaximenes calls air the principle of all things, regarding the subsequent process as a thinning or thickening, they must have considered individual beings and the phenomenal world as, a result of evolution, even if they did not carry the process out in detail. Anaximander is often regarded as a precursor of the modem theory of development. He deduces living beings, in a gradual development, from moisture under the influence of warmth, and suggests the view that men originated from animals of another sort, since if they had come into existence as human beings, needing fostering care for a long time, they would not have been able to maintain their existence." The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Creation "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life" Genesis 1:20
>>

That definition of 'evolution' is flawed and incorrect. The (proper) definition given by the Oxford Dictionary (tenth edition) is: "the process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms, especially by natural selection."

I've reduced any 'explanation' for the formation of life given by religions to mere superstition by use of logic.
For example, Maetryx told us that there are people who believe that there's reason to believe, or who are convinced, that a supernatural force/being/whatever is somehow responsible for the formation of life.
However, there are millions of theists on this planet, who all share one thing (together with some atheists, I must add): blind faith. Denying the truth even if sufficient evidence is presented.

With all we know at this moment, we can only come to two conclusions:

- Evolution is an undeniable fact. All species on this single planet share 95% of their DNA, which can hardly be called a coincidence. Add to that the fact that these spieces all contain (traces of) rudimentary organs and body-parts.

- Biogenesis is the most likely way for life to have formed. When presented with the choice between biogenesis and genesis, and one would look at the available evidence, it's clear that genesis belongs (for now) to the realm of fantasy. It's so fantastic that it can hardly be called a theory, while biogenesis is supported by decades of research in chemistry and other areas of science.

The 'theory' of 'Genesis' in its current state is not science and its supporters will have to spend much more time on it to make it scientifically acceptable. It appears that such 'genesis'-stories are a trademark of religions, and religions are, as may be obvious, as far from objectivity and reliability as possible.
 

AdamDuritz99

Diamond Member
Mar 26, 2000
3,233
0
71
I believe in God, and i believe he created us. But how are we to say he just created us by POOF your there. Maybe his way was some sort of evolving. That monkey crap is just a bunch of BS. but we could evovled and that's HOW God created us. I don't know i'm just saying people who believe in God should be a little more open minded on how God created us. Nobody knows exactly how it all happen.


peace
sean
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< I believe in God, and i believe he created us. But how are we to say he just created us by POOF your there. Maybe his way was some sort of evolving. That monkey crap is just a bunch of BS. but we could evovled and that's HOW God created us. I don't know i'm just saying people who believe in God should be a little more open minded on how God created us. Nobody knows exactly how it all happen.


peace
sean
>>

Genesis (and for that matter: religions) is based on lack of knowledge, where biogenesis (and science) is based on knowledge, the possession of information.

Saying that some supernatural force created life on this planet can only be proven by total absence of evidence for biogenesis, which is obviously not the case. Therefore biogenesis is the most logical choice.
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
"Saying that some supernatural force created life on this planet can only be proven by total absence of evidence for biogenesis, which is obviously not the case"
please elaborate.
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
In re"I believe in God, and i believe he created us. But how are we to say he just created us by POOF your there."

God says all scripture is given by Him, and God says that in six days He created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that in is in them by the breath of His mouth; for He spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Dave
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< "Saying that some supernatural force created life on this planet can only be proven by total absence of evidence for biogenesis, which is obviously not the case"
please elaborate.
>>

Same thing as with proving that a supernatural force exists, actually.

Since it's impossible to prove the existance of a supernatural force (unless it announces its presence in an acceptable way), it's also impossible to prove that such a supernatural force is responsible for such a thing as the formation of life. It's like blaming a random person for a crime while you're uncertain that person even exists and you don't have the resources to find that person.
Totally illogical.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<< In re"I believe in God, and i believe he created us. But how are we to say he just created us by POOF your there."

God says all scripture is given by Him, and God says that in six days He created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that in is in them by the breath of His mouth; for He spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Dave
>>

Well, that certainly explains a lot, doesn't it?
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
"evidence for biogenesis"

please elaborate.

Dave

PS I apologize for being vague in my earlier post as to what I wanted you to elaborate on.
God gave the Bible to man for proof of his existance.
 
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