Poll: Creationism Trumps Evolution

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conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...polls/main657083.shtml
(CBS) Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools.

Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all.

There are also differences between voters who supported Kerry and those who supported Bush: 47 percent of John Kerry?s voters think God created humans as they are now, compared with 67 percent of Bush voters.
More proof that ignorance is bliss.

I weep for this nation.
Let's get down to the nitty gritty.

How many career geneticists can you find that support the theory of punctuated equilibrium?
Next time I run into a career geneticist, I'll ask.

Well, being as how genetics is really the key to whether all this evolution stuff is possible or not, and that PE is the key component of evolution which tries to explain all the dramatic sequences in the history of evolution, I'd say avoiding this issue or not reading up on it leaves you with *quite* a roadblock.

In fact, I would say it takes more faith to believe what you believe than for me to believe in God.

Do you know how precisely tuned each of the dozens of physical constants in the universe has to be to support life? The charges of subatomic particles, the ratio of helium to deuterium, the gravitational constant, etc... If any of these things were off by a tiny fraction, fusion wouldn't be able to form in the sun, or particles wouldn't be able to come together to form matter, or planets would never be able to congeal.

So what do you believe? That we won some sort of grand lottery, or that there's an Intelligent Creator?
PE, from what I've read, only deals with the existence of the current fossil record.

And, having faith in evolution is not necessary. The evidence exists to prove it occurs. Now, science is off to find out *how* it occurs.

As for the odds of life forming on earth, hey, we're here so it happened. But, and this is the only place where I have any *faith*, I believe there are many other planets supporting life in this universe. There are trillions and trillions of planets. To me, to say we're the only one that has life and of all of the size of this universe to think a supreme being is concerned with this one teeny, tiny, insignificant speck is just utter arrogance.
 

Literati

Golden Member
Jan 13, 2005
1,864
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...polls/main657083.shtml
(CBS) Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools.

Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all.

There are also differences between voters who supported Kerry and those who supported Bush: 47 percent of John Kerry?s voters think God created humans as they are now, compared with 67 percent of Bush voters.
More proof that ignorance is bliss.

I weep for this nation.

Where's the bliss part?

Am I just not connecting this or did you just throw that old saying out for good measure?
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
76
Originally posted by: kage69
The stupidity of closeminded people never ceases to amaze me. My poor, poor country.

I love the irony. If they don't believe exactly what you believe they are ignorant or closeminded. :roll:
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: MantisFistMonk
Where's the bliss part?

Am I just not connecting this or did you just throw that old saying out for good measure?
Because these idiots actually revel in their ignorance and try to force the rest of us to follow and live by their ignorance.
 

Literati

Golden Member
Jan 13, 2005
1,864
0
0
Originally posted by: wchou
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I do not understand why Creationism and Evolution cannot co-exist...the historical accuracy of the Bible is extremely questionable, but the intent of the message contained within is certainly a nice set of guidelines for how to live one's life...and the same can be said for the scriptures, tomes and literature of every major religion.

Evolution provides an explanation for how humans and other species have evolved over millions of years, but evolution does not and currently cannot explain the origin...the true understanding of the origin of it all is still beyond the grasp of human science, and it is perhaps beyond the grasp of human comprehension.

This void...this origin...this unexplained, undocumented and intangible beginning...perhaps it is spiritual in nature, or at least suggests the existence of a higher being, even it is not necessarily the Christian God.

There is no reason why our society cannot accept and recognize evolution without denying the existence of God.
They cannot coexist, just like apes and human cannot because one is much more intelligent then the others.
I believe everything just came by itself by mere chance just like with good luck and bad luck
No one made anything happen before we existed by believing so you are only fooling yourself otherwise. We are an evolved form of dinosaurs with smaller body and bigger brain
They never died, we are them they are us.
They only way they died is that life cease to exist, as long as their is a living organism alive even after some species extinction, evolution continue to evolve into another lifeform that is usually smarter, better looking and very adaptive to the environment.
Sounds scary doesn't it?

Did you just 1 ) Say that humans and apes cannot co-exist?

and 2 ) Just try to really say we are dinosaurs?

As for your reply sounding scary... yes it absolutely does sound scary.

I will make P&N my new home. Welcome me my fellow dinosaurs.

We shall engage in nonsensical arguements and just make stuff up to support them.

And it shall be great.
 

Literati

Golden Member
Jan 13, 2005
1,864
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: MantisFistMonk
Where's the bliss part?

Am I just not connecting this or did you just throw that old saying out for good measure?
Because these idiots actually revel in their ignorance and try to force the rest of us to follow and live by their ignorance.

Ahh I see.

Although I do believe in God, I can also see your side of the story and you definately have some good points.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: MantisFistMonk
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: MantisFistMonk
Where's the bliss part?

Am I just not connecting this or did you just throw that old saying out for good measure?
Because these idiots actually revel in their ignorance and try to force the rest of us to follow and live by their ignorance.
Ahh I see.

Although I do believe in God, I can also see your side of the story and you definately have some good points.
I have no problem with people who believe in Creationism, God, etc. as long as they keep it to themselves and don't try and force their beliefs on others, esp. me.
 

Literati

Golden Member
Jan 13, 2005
1,864
0
0
I also agree with that.

I'm not a big fan of "Flaming Atheists" who have to tell everyone that anyone who believes in God are a bunch of idiots as soon as anything remotely close to Religeon is mentioned, and have the need to tell everyone in the immediate area that they don't believe in God.

On the other end of the spectrum, those "Jesus Pushers" are no better.

Nothing like me going down the street and someone stuffing flyers in my pockets going "You need to accept Jesus into your life son or burn in hellfire!"

The world will be a better place when people learn that it's okay to compromise and understand that everything isn't so black and white all the time.

Ahh extremists. What a wonderful product of social evolution.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Well, being as how genetics is really the key to whether all this evolution stuff is possible or not, and that PE is the key component of evolution which tries to explain all the dramatic sequences in the history of evolution, I'd say avoiding this issue or not reading up on it leaves you with *quite* a roadblock.

In fact, I would say it takes more faith to believe what you believe than for me to believe in God.

Do you know how precisely tuned each of the dozens of physical constants in the universe has to be to support life? The charges of subatomic particles, the ratio of helium to deuterium, the gravitational constant, etc... If any of these things were off by a tiny fraction, fusion wouldn't be able to form in the sun, or particles wouldn't be able to come together to form matter, or planets would never be able to congeal.

So what do you believe? That we won some sort of grand lottery, or that there's an Intelligent Creator?
PE, from what I've read, only deals with the existence of the current fossil record.

And, having faith in evolution is not necessary. The evidence exists to prove it occurs. Now, science is off to find out *how* it occurs.

As for the odds of life forming on earth, hey, we're here so it happened. But, and this is the only place where I have any *faith*, I believe there are many other planets supporting life in this universe. There are trillions and trillions of planets. To me, to say we're the only one that has life and of all of the size of this universe to think a supreme being is concerned with this one teeny, tiny, insignificant speck is just utter arrogance.

Do you not see the irony here? Geez the amount of "reveling in ignorance" it must take to come up with that. "Hey we're here so it happened" is fallacious. You're doing the same thing many pseudointellectuals foll themselves into doing - they formulate a hypothesis and selectively mold the evidence around it.

The evidence is there for everyone to see. What it is evidence of, I don't know. But I do know it is extremely arrogant and dangerous for people to surmise that "hey we're here so it(evolution) happened."

What you say about PE is neither here nor there. It is only a hypothesis in regards to the evidence in fossil record, but it is the only thing naturalists can surmise based on the limitations in the evidence. Unfortunately, geneticists tend to find the idea of new species coming out of nowhere (10,000 - 100,000 years) quite unlikely.

By the way, I don't deny that there could be other life forms elsewhere. The Bible doesn't preclude that. I also don't deny evolution occurs. But I do believe that blind naturalistic Darwinian SOTF style evolution alone cannot account for all we see today. I believe it is Intelligence driven. The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
667
0
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...polls/main657083.shtml
(CBS) Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools.

Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all.

There are also differences between voters who supported Kerry and those who supported Bush: 47 percent of John Kerry?s voters think God created humans as they are now, compared with 67 percent of Bush voters.
More proof that ignorance is bliss.

I weep for this nation.
Let's get down to the nitty gritty.

How many career geneticists can you find that support the theory of punctuated equilibrium?
Next time I run into a career geneticist, I'll ask.

Well, being as how genetics is really the key to whether all this evolution stuff is possible or not, and that PE is the key component of evolution which tries to explain all the dramatic sequences in the history of evolution, I'd say avoiding this issue or not reading up on it leaves you with *quite* a roadblock.

In fact, I would say it takes more faith to believe what you believe than for me to believe in God.

Do you know how precisely tuned each of the dozens of physical constants in the universe has to be to support life? The charges of subatomic particles, the ratio of helium to deuterium, the gravitational constant, etc... If any of these things were off by a tiny fraction, fusion wouldn't be able to form in the sun, or particles wouldn't be able to come together to form matter, or planets would never be able to congeal.

So what do you believe? That we won some sort of grand lottery, or that there's an Intelligent Creator?

Punctuated Equilibrium, fide Eldredge and Gould 1972, was a paleontological approach to some provincial mechanistic manifestations of synthetic evolution, namely the (mostly) recent vertebrate fossil record (at that time it was rare for paleontologists to be trained in evolution).


The idea called punctuated equilibrium had two sources and one overriding purpose?to provide an exit from the "disabling rescue" of Darwin's argument on imperfection. First, a statement about mode of change: Most new species do not arise by transformation of entire ancestral populations but by the splitting (branching) of a lineage into two populations.

Second, a statement about rate of change. The simple claim that species arise by splitting, and not by transformation of entire ancestral populations, does not guarantee punctuated equilibrium. Punctuated equilibrium gains its rationale from the ideal also a standard component of the allopatric speciation theory, that most peripherally isolated populations are relatively small and undergo their characteristic changes at a rate that translates into geological time as an instant.

Basically, the hub-bub is all really this: Speciation events occur in a geological instant and in a region of limited extent at some distance from the parental population. In other words, punctuated equilibrium?and not gradualism?is the expected geological translation for the standard account of speciation in evolutionary theory.

Punctuated equilibrium provoked a minor controversy amongst the ill-informed, exactly because most people who cared only enough to read "INSTEAD" of gradualism--jumped on that faster than flies to scat. Unfortunately they failed to understand PE, before jumping. From Gould himself:


"...The Theory became an issue (quite coincidentally) just when creationism reached its acme of thankfully temporary influence. Creationists, with their usual skill in the art of phony rhetoric, cynically distorted punctuated equilibrium for their own ends, claiming that we had virtually thrown in the towel and admitted that the fossil record contains no intermediate forms. (Punctuated equilibrium, on the other hand, is a different theory of intermediacy for evolutionary trends?pushing a ball up an inclined plane for gradualism, climbing a staircase for punctuated equilibrium.)"

PE is not the foundation of Evolution in any way, shape or form. It is IMHO an observation by Niles Eldrege about the fossil record--in the context of evolutionary theory. Most evolutionary biologists are neither supporters nor detractors of PE, since they don't work with fossils. In any case, it is tangential at best to Evolutionary theory, sensu stricto.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: fjord

PE is not the foundation of Evolution in any way, shape or form.

Your quote: "punctuated equilibrium?and not gradualism?is the expected geological translation for the standard account of speciation in evolutionary theory. "

LOL...

Again, I ask, where are the geneticists in all of this? They are the only ones who can say with any degree of authority is this is at all possible.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.

No, it's not. We only have one universe to observe, so we have no way to say how probable or improbable it is. In any case, if the physics was different, we wouldn't be here to complain about it.

 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
Hmmm but Evolution is just a theory. There is no proof of man evolving or the big bang.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.

No, it's not. We only have one universe to observe, so we have no way to say how probable or improbable it is. In any case, if the physics was different, we wouldn't be here to complain about it.

The anthropic principles I see. It is quite popular among philosophers...

If there are no other universes, then the natural conclusion is this is designed by God. If there are, and their physics are all different... Well, you then believe we've struck the lottery.

Which is it?

 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.

No, it's not. We only have one universe to observe, so we have no way to say how probable or improbable it is. In any case, if the physics was different, we wouldn't be here to complain about it.

The anthropic principles I see. It is quite popular among philosophers...

If there are no other universes, then the natural conclusion is this is designed by God.

How does your conclusion follow from your premise? I don't see any connection between the existence of universe and the existence of a deity. Can you explain? If you have a proof that connects premise and conclusion, please post it.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.

No, it's not. We only have one universe to observe, so we have no way to say how probable or improbable it is. In any case, if the physics was different, we wouldn't be here to complain about it.

The anthropic principles I see. It is quite popular among philosophers...

If there are no other universes, then the natural conclusion is this is designed by God.

How does your conclusion follow from your premise? I don't see any connection between the existence of universe and the existence of a deity. Can you explain? If you have a proof that connects premise and conclusion, please post it.

If there is one universe only... And that universe has dozens of examples of physics that have been tuned with such precision, where the overwhelming possible combinations would not allow matter to form or suns to provide warmth, much less for life to exist... doesn't that point to an intelligent Creator?

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Well, being as how genetics is really the key to whether all this evolution stuff is possible or not, and that PE is the key component of evolution which tries to explain all the dramatic sequences in the history of evolution, I'd say avoiding this issue or not reading up on it leaves you with *quite* a roadblock.

In fact, I would say it takes more faith to believe what you believe than for me to believe in God.

Do you know how precisely tuned each of the dozens of physical constants in the universe has to be to support life? The charges of subatomic particles, the ratio of helium to deuterium, the gravitational constant, etc... If any of these things were off by a tiny fraction, fusion wouldn't be able to form in the sun, or particles wouldn't be able to come together to form matter, or planets would never be able to congeal.

So what do you believe? That we won some sort of grand lottery, or that there's an Intelligent Creator?
PE, from what I've read, only deals with the existence of the current fossil record.

And, having faith in evolution is not necessary. The evidence exists to prove it occurs. Now, science is off to find out *how* it occurs.

As for the odds of life forming on earth, hey, we're here so it happened. But, and this is the only place where I have any *faith*, I believe there are many other planets supporting life in this universe. There are trillions and trillions of planets. To me, to say we're the only one that has life and of all of the size of this universe to think a supreme being is concerned with this one teeny, tiny, insignificant speck is just utter arrogance.
Do you not see the irony here? Geez the amount of "reveling in ignorance" it must take to come up with that. "Hey we're here so it happened" is fallacious. You're doing the same thing many pseudointellectuals foll themselves into doing - they formulate a hypothesis and selectively mold the evidence around it.

The evidence is there for everyone to see. What it is evidence of, I don't know. But I do know it is extremely arrogant and dangerous for people to surmise that "hey we're here so it(evolution) happened."

What you say about PE is neither here nor there. It is only a hypothesis in regards to the evidence in fossil record, but it is the only thing naturalists can surmise based on the limitations in the evidence. Unfortunately, geneticists tend to find the idea of new species coming out of nowhere (10,000 - 100,000 years) quite unlikely.

By the way, I don't deny that there could be other life forms elsewhere. The Bible doesn't preclude that. I also don't deny evolution occurs. But I do believe that blind naturalistic Darwinian SOTF style evolution alone cannot account for all we see today. I believe it is Intelligence driven. The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.
Thanks for misreading my post. I didn't say "Hey, we're here, evolution is proven."

I said, and I'll repeat:

"As for the odds of life forming on earth, hey, we're here so it happened." We beat the odds. Life formed HERE, not on Mars or Venus (as far as we know.) What does evolution have to do with life forming here? Not a damn thing and it doesn't purport to.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.

No, it's not. We only have one universe to observe, so we have no way to say how probable or improbable it is. In any case, if the physics was different, we wouldn't be here to complain about it.

The anthropic principles I see. It is quite popular among philosophers...

If there are no other universes, then the natural conclusion is this is designed by God.

How does your conclusion follow from your premise? I don't see any connection between the existence of universe and the existence of a deity. Can you explain? If you have a proof that connects premise and conclusion, please post it.

If there is one universe only... And that universe has dozens of examples of physics that have been tuned with such precision, where the overwhelming possible combinations would not allow matter to form or suns to provide warmth, much less for life to exist... doesn't that point to an intelligent Creator?

No. With only one universe to observe there is no possible way to determine the probalities of other options being taken in the formation of the universe. For example if I roll a die and get a 6 and that is the only information you have on the die you can not tell me the probablity of getting a 6 or any other possible number. In fact there are an infinit number of other possible out comes to rolling that die.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.

No, it's not. We only have one universe to observe, so we have no way to say how probable or improbable it is. In any case, if the physics was different, we wouldn't be here to complain about it.

The anthropic principles I see. It is quite popular among philosophers...

If there are no other universes, then the natural conclusion is this is designed by God.

How does your conclusion follow from your premise? I don't see any connection between the existence of universe and the existence of a deity. Can you explain? If you have a proof that connects premise and conclusion, please post it.

If there is one universe only... And that universe has dozens of examples of physics that have been tuned with such precision, where the overwhelming possible combinations would not allow matter to form or suns to provide warmth, much less for life to exist... doesn't that point to an intelligent Creator?

No. With only one universe to observe there is no possible way to determine the probalities of other options being taken in the formation of the universe. For example if I roll a die and get a 6 and that is the only information you have on the die you can not tell me the probablity of getting a 6 or any other possible number. In fact there are an infinit number of other possible out comes to rolling that die.

Your last statement seems accurate, because it makes little sense that natural laws arbitrarily dictates that the universe develop under physics conducive to life. But if that was true, wouldn't we be in the same position?

Intelligent Creator, or we happened to have struct a celestial lottery...
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
667
0
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: fjord

PE is not the foundation of Evolution in any way, shape or form.

Your quote: "punctuated equilibrium?and not gradualism?is the expected geological translation for the standard account of speciation in evolutionary theory. "

LOL...

Again, I ask, where are the geneticists in all of this? They are the only ones who can say with any degree of authority is this is at all possible.

Punctuated equilibrium?and not gradualism?is the expected geological translation for the standard account of speciation in evolutionary theory. This is s Eldredge and Gould, 1972.

I'm not taking credit for someone elses idea. I should re-iterate, that a "Step-wise" instead of gradual manifestation in the fossil record is mostly an observation and prediction by Niles Eldredge.

If you live near a University, or if you have access to a phone, it should be fairly easy to get in contact with any number of professional geneticists.

It is interesting that many folks nowadays, especially young students that I come in contact with, think that the internet and google are the only tools necessary to do research. I often challenge them on this point--not that I accuse them of lazyness, just a lack of experience.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.

No, it's not. We only have one universe to observe, so we have no way to say how probable or improbable it is. In any case, if the physics was different, we wouldn't be here to complain about it.

The anthropic principles I see. It is quite popular among philosophers...

If there are no other universes, then the natural conclusion is this is designed by God.

How does your conclusion follow from your premise? I don't see any connection between the existence of universe and the existence of a deity. Can you explain? If you have a proof that connects premise and conclusion, please post it.

If there is one universe only... And that universe has dozens of examples of physics that have been tuned with such precision, where the overwhelming possible combinations would not allow matter to form or suns to provide warmth, much less for life to exist... doesn't that point to an intelligent Creator?

No. With only one universe to observe there is no possible way to determine the probalities of other options being taken in the formation of the universe. For example if I roll a die and get a 6 and that is the only information you have on the die you can not tell me the probablity of getting a 6 or any other possible number. In fact there are an infinit number of other possible out comes to rolling that die.

Your last statement seems accurate, because it makes little sense that natural laws arbitrarily dictates that the universe develop under physics conducive to life. But if that was true, wouldn't we be in the same position?

Intelligent Creator, or we happened to have struct a celestial lottery...

You can't determine if we struct the celestial lottery by looking at one event. Like the die I rolled there could be infinite different out comes, but we don't know. For example there could be 10000 sides each with a different number or each side could have a 6 which means ever roll would yield a 6. We just don't know.

By rolling a 6 die I get really lucky or was that just the most likely outcome?
 

earthman

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,653
0
71
I just read that a poll showed 20 percent of americans believe the sun revolves around the earth, and 30 percent believed that the earth revolved around the sun once every day....so no, this doesn't surprise me. Americans are easily the most ignorant population on earth, certainly in the "developed" world.
 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,202
6
81
link? I know there are some dumb people out there, but I don't see any possible way so many people could believe THAT......
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81
I'm sure this has been said before, but EVERYTHING in science is a theory! Science is and forever will be a work in progress. Just because it isnt 1000000% complete in studying every facet of every single thing thats ever been observed by anything that has ever existed does NOT invalidate the massive scientific knowledge that has been acquired!

Nothing makes me sadder than the ignorance of some people nowadays. If you've never truely learned about evolution, then I cant blame you for disregarding it, you plain and simply can't have understood it if youve never been taught it.

But for the people who have learned it, and disregarded it, then youre just stupid, plain and simple. Not even realizing that it is not incompatible with your beliefs on top of that.

Evolution is like relativity. Once you understand the theory, you understand WHY IT IS NECESSARILY TRUE. That there is no way around it. It is the same with evolution. Once you understand a few very simple things, which you know from your own experience must be 100% true and undeniable, you will understand that there is literally no way out or around from the theory, it is just plain true. People trying to knock down evolution are trying to do so on the ignorance that if there is an unanswered question, it invalidates the whole theory, which is just plain wrong.

Although I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the same people that dont "believe" in evolution, dont "believe" in relativity either. For the love of god, get out of your shell, and realize there is a whole world of knowledge just waiting to be learned, as soon as you can get over your childish tendencies.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
11
81
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: busmaster11
The perfect, yet astronomically unlikely physics we enjoy is testimony to that.

No, it's not. We only have one universe to observe, so we have no way to say how probable or improbable it is. In any case, if the physics was different, we wouldn't be here to complain about it.

The anthropic principles I see. It is quite popular among philosophers...

If there are no other universes, then the natural conclusion is this is designed by God.

How does your conclusion follow from your premise? I don't see any connection between the existence of universe and the existence of a deity. Can you explain? If you have a proof that connects premise and conclusion, please post it.

If there is one universe only... And that universe has dozens of examples of physics that have been tuned with such precision, where the overwhelming possible combinations would not allow matter to form or suns to provide warmth, much less for life to exist... doesn't that point to an intelligent Creator?

No. With only one universe to observe there is no possible way to determine the probalities of other options being taken in the formation of the universe. For example if I roll a die and get a 6 and that is the only information you have on the die you can not tell me the probablity of getting a 6 or any other possible number. In fact there are an infinit number of other possible out comes to rolling that die.

Your last statement seems accurate, because it makes little sense that natural laws arbitrarily dictates that the universe develop under physics conducive to life. But if that was true, wouldn't we be in the same position?

Intelligent Creator, or we happened to have struct a celestial lottery...

You can't determine if we struct the celestial lottery by looking at one event. Like the die I rolled there could be infinite different out comes, but we don't know. For example there could be 10000 sides each with a different number or each side could have a 6 which means ever roll would yield a 6. We just don't know.

By rolling a 6 die I get really lucky or was that just the most likely outcome?

Actually you can. We live in a relatively improbable universe. I can't post much now, but I'll see if I have more time later.
 
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