POll: Did you circumcise your son, if he was born in the past 5 years?

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: adlep

But, but, but the GOD said it is OK to do it...It must be true then.
Bottom line is that the proponents of circumcision have no arguments, so they resort to some odd ones like: women think it is "hot" which is an absolute BS.

"Hello Kettle, let me introduce you to my friend, Black."

Not even the same.

This is something that should not be FORCED onto a child without their concent. Just because you think its ok does not give you the right (your child or not) to force it upon your child.

Oh, so apparently you missed adlep's hilarious attempts to compare eyelid removal to circumcision over the previous 2 pages, and thus missed the intent of my comment.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: adlep

But, but, but the GOD said it is OK to do it...It must be true then.
Bottom line is that the proponents of circumcision have no arguments, so they resort to some odd ones like: women think it is "hot" which is an absolute BS.

"Hello Kettle, let me introduce you to my friend, Black."

Not even the same.

This is something that should not be FORCED onto a child without their concent. Just because you think its ok does not give you the right (your child or not) to force it upon your child.

Oh, so apparently you missed adlep's hilarious attempts to compare eyelid removal to circumcision over the previous 2 pages, and thus missed the intent of my comment.

His argument is terrible, this is true. However, no procedure should ever be performed on a child without their consent unless it is something that is 100% medically necessary. When I say medically necessary I mean there is real and present danger such as the case of an inflammed appendix that could possibly rupture etc.

Doing elective surgery that amounts to arguable evidence of health benefit (even that "benefit" is low % of less infections) is completely overstepping the bounds of control one person should have over another.

I firmly believe that it is just as valid a point to say, lets remove the tonsils and appendix because they are of limited value just because we want to prevent something that doesnt even happen to most people (appendicitis/various tonsil issues) just because the child is young and wont remember the pain.

 

[adlep]

I really don't get why some people have problem with my eyelid arguments in spite of me trying to explain my position point by point...

All I hear is: Your argument is terrible, because it is terrible.

:frown:

Both the foreskin and eyelid have a simple biological function: To protect a sensitive organ of man's body against "too much" of a stimuli from the environment.
Why then it is such a "cool" thing to do to remove one part of a body designed to PROTECT human's private parts?

I understand the concept of an underwear, but at the same token you don't need eyelids either - you can replace them with eye drops and a pair of cool looking pair of Ray Bans polarized sunglasses (you know ' the chicks" also digg cool sunglasses)...

 

[surfsatwerk]

Originally posted by: adlep
I really don't get why some people have problem with my eyelid arguments in spite of me trying to explain my position point by point...

All I hear is: Your argument is terrible, because it is terrible.

:frown:

Both the foreskin and eyelid have a simple biological function: To protect a sensitive organ of man's body against "too much" of a stimuli from the environment.
Why then it is such a "cool" thing to do to remove one part of a body designed to PROTECT human's private parts?

I understand the concept of an underwear, but at the same token you don't need eyelids either - you can replace them with eye drops and a pair of cool looking pair of Ray Bans polarized sunglasses (you know ' the chicks" also digg cool sunglasses)...

Listen it may make sense to you, but the rest of the world thinks you're crazy.

In situations like this it's best to just leave it alone because you aren't going to convince anyone that cutting off your eyelids is comparable to anything. The only thing your little analogy reminds me of that kid who cut his off to keep from sleeping in Nightmare on Elm Street 2.

 

[marincounty]

If I ever have a son I will have his penis shortened. It is such a burden to carry around so much meat.

 

[MotionMan]

Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

 

[GiggleGirl]

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

ummm how is this relevant at all? lol
you call it "extra" skin.... it is skin that has complete biological and sexual PURPOSE... its not just extra... like a skin tag or whatever. ITS PART OF YOUR FLIPPIN PENIS, the way you were BORN!

 

[BUTCH1]

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

You keep trying to make analogies that make no sense, braces serve a purpose to correct a problem where circumcision is really just cosmetic and nothing more. It's part of American culture but does it solve any real medical problem??...NO! And don't even bring up the cleanliness issue, if you have access to hot water and soap it's a non issue, period..

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

You keep trying to make analogies that make no sense, braces serve a purpose to correct a problem where circumcision is really just cosmetic and nothing more. It's part of American culture but does it solve any real medical problem??...NO! And don't even bring up the cleanliness issue, if you have access to hot water and soap it's a non issue, period..

Why are crooked teeth a problem? The English seem to do fine without braces.

Aren't braces, in many cases, simply for aesthetics? And the removal of non-infected wisdom teeth? And the removal of teeth because your mouth is "too small"?

When I was a minor, I had permanent teeth removed and braces put on against my will. How is that different than circumcision?

MotionMan

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I see mutilation of innocent babies is still alive and well.

Is this how you also feel about abortion?

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: GiggleGirl

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

ummm how is this relevant at all? lol
you call it "extra" skin.... it is skin that has complete biological and sexual PURPOSE... its not just extra... like a skin tag or whatever. ITS PART OF YOUR FLIPPIN PENIS, the way you were BORN!

"extra" teeth...for chewing...the way you were born...

MotionMan

 

[BUTCH1]

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

You keep trying to make analogies that make no sense, braces serve a purpose to correct a problem where circumcision is really just cosmetic and nothing more. It's part of American culture but does it solve any real medical problem??...NO! And don't even bring up the cleanliness issue, if you have access to hot water and soap it's a non issue, period..

Why are crooked teeth a problem? The English seem to do fine without braces.

Aren't braces, in many cases, simply for aesthetics? And the removal of non-infected wisdom teeth? And the removal of teeth because your mouth is "too small"?

When I was a minor, I had permanent teeth removed and braces put on against my will. How is that different than circumcision?

MotionMan

Because there is no downside to braces, I've never even heard of removing "extra" teeth so I can't comment on that deal. There IS a downside to circumcision however, loss of sensitivity and normal penis function..

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: SammyJr
Might as well remove appendixes, tonsils, and everything else that someone deems non essential at birth, seeing as the newborn period is somehow the ideal time to perform surgery.

Tonsillectomy and appendectomy not only have a higher incidence of complications but more severe ones; e.g. death. Furthermore, there is evidence that tonsillectomy in young children is linked to a higher risk of some cancers in adulthood. The opposite is true for circumcision; circumcision reduces the risk of certain cancers in both MEN and WOMEN (by reducing the risk of HPV transmission).

Originally posted by: purewater09
Healthy sex lives? No. Article on sexual dysfunction in the USA

Except the study never mentions or implicates circumcision to be an underlying factor. Most of the dysfunction found in the study was attributable to psychological and social factors such as stress, and lifestyle related conduct that impacts on health such as smoking and substance abuse (including excessive drinking).

The only problem that may be relevant to the discussion was that nearly one out of every three men reported persistent problems with premature ejaculation, which is more likely to affect uncut men.

I'd bet you find the sex lives of Europeans are lot healthier.

That may or may not be, but nothing about the sex lives of Europeans can be inferred from nor supported by any of your links.

It effects sex for the woman too:
http://xrl.us/foreskinfunctions

What "effects"? The claim is that cut men go plunging their penis in straight-off as deeply as they can without any consideration for or feedback from their partner. Excerpted from your link:

"He got her excited with foreplay. She?s burning up with desire. But as soon as he enters her and starts pumping away, she?s turned off. That wonderful, excited feeling, that glow all over her body, that tingling in her sex organs, vanishes. Why? Because he?s doing The BIG BANG. In and out, in and out ? Bang Bang."

This has nothing to do with circumcision and everything to do with an inexperienced, ignorant, or selfish/inconsiderate partner. And some claims on this website are directly contradicted by the study to which you linked:

"And instead of the loving sensuousness and pure pleasure of natural intercourse, circumcised sex can subject the woman to various degrees of discomfort and displeasure, often accompanied by frustration, incompleteness, and disappointment. This becomes increasingly apparent as the woman ages (the more she has sex with the circumcised man). But the problem can begin as early as the late twenties or early thirties." -- http://www.sexasnatureintended...ationship_suffers.html

The study to which you linked found that sexual dysfunction and general satisfaction in older women to be HALF that of younger women:

Sexual problems are highest among younger women (aged 18 to 29), with 21 percent reporting physical pain with intercourse, 27 percent saying they don't enjoy it, and 16 percent reporting sexual anxiety. On the other hand, women aged 50 and 59 are one-third as likely as younger women to experience pain during sex and half as likely to report non-pleasurable sex and sexual anxiety..

The other thing I find remarkable is that you don't seem to see cutting off a functioning part of the body without consent as a problem. If no harm comes from leaving him intact and he is better off being intact sexually, why do you think it is better to circumcise?

That's just it - harm DOES come from leaving it intact for many people, and not just for the male in question but for his partners. The health indications for circumcision are well-known, confirmed in multiple high-quality studies, and have been hashed over in this thread already.

If its just a matter of having very good hygiene, then the fact is a lot of men aren't doing this hygiene, increasing the risks of STD, cancer, and sexual dysfunction for not only themselves but their partners as well. So many, in fact, that multiple studies have found a clear statistically significant difference in these things between circumcised men and/or populations relative to uncircumcised men and/or populations.

You're certainly entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

When you do it "just because" and there is no problem YES!

Your arguments this whole thread have been as bad as the eyelid argument

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: GiggleGirl

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

ummm how is this relevant at all? lol
you call it "extra" skin.... it is skin that has complete biological and sexual PURPOSE... its not just extra... like a skin tag or whatever. ITS PART OF YOUR FLIPPIN PENIS, the way you were BORN!

"extra" teeth...for chewing...the way you were born...

MotionMan

Terrible arguments are freaking terrible.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Originally posted by: SammyJr
Might as well remove appendixes, tonsils, and everything else that someone deems non essential at birth, seeing as the newborn period is somehow the ideal time to perform surgery.

Tonsillectomy and appendectomy not only have a higher incidence of complications but more severe ones; e.g. death. Furthermore, there is evidence that tonsillectomy in young children is linked to a higher risk of some cancers in adulthood. The opposite is true for circumcision; circumcision reduces the risk of certain cancers in both MEN and WOMEN (by reducing the risk of HPV transmission).

Welcome to 2009, buddy. We vaccinate women to protect against HPV. Futhermore, the U.S. has a tremendous rate of HPV infection despite an overwhelmingly circumcised male population. Recent articles point to 25% of teenage girls infected or something of that nature. And even if circumcision offered prevention, I'm not going to cut my boy because someone might be too stupid to vaccinate their daughter.

Penile cancer is also used to sell circumcision. However, penile cancer is extremely rare and hasn't been conclusively proven to make a difference. A study in Denmark showed that their penile cancer rate was very similar (practically nonexistant) when compared with the United states. You can also search for penile cancer on Pubmed and find cases of penile cancer in circumcised men. Anyway, I think you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to get penile cancer and definitely more likely to develop breast cancer as a male. Also, penile cancer is always a disease of old men, so there's plenty of time for a man to make his own choice in the matter.

This information is all from the current American Cancer Society pages. You seem to be reading from a circumcision pamphlet from the rural Midwest from 30 years ago.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

If the the person has a perfect or nearly perfect teeth and they're force into it, then yes, its wrong. But if a person has Cletus the Slackjawed Yokel teeth, its in their medical interests to have the condition fixed.

Braces in a crooked mouth = fixing a problem
Newborn circumcision = cosmetic surgery

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: GiggleGirl

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

ummm how is this relevant at all? lol
you call it "extra" skin.... it is skin that has complete biological and sexual PURPOSE... its not just extra... like a skin tag or whatever. ITS PART OF YOUR FLIPPIN PENIS, the way you were BORN!

"extra" teeth...for chewing...the way you were born...

If the teeth are causing a problem and the best solution is removal, then remove them. If your appendix is causing a problem and the best solution is removal, then remove it.

Medical need vs. cosmetic surgery.

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: BUTCH1

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

You keep trying to make analogies that make no sense, braces serve a purpose to correct a problem where circumcision is really just cosmetic and nothing more. It's part of American culture but does it solve any real medical problem??...NO! And don't even bring up the cleanliness issue, if you have access to hot water and soap it's a non issue, period..

Why are crooked teeth a problem? The English seem to do fine without braces.

Aren't braces, in many cases, simply for aesthetics? And the removal of non-infected wisdom teeth? And the removal of teeth because your mouth is "too small"?

When I was a minor, I had permanent teeth removed and braces put on against my will. How is that different than circumcision?

MotionMan

Because there is no downside to braces, I've never even heard of removing "extra" teeth so I can't comment on that deal. There IS a downside to circumcision however, loss of sensitivity and normal penis function..

You've obviously never had braces.

MotionMan

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

When you do it "just because" and there is no problem YES!

Your arguments this whole thread have been as bad as the eyelid argument

I am actually not arguing. I am discussing and attempting to understand, through analogy, another point of view.

MotionMan

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

When you do it "just because" and there is no problem YES!

Your arguments this whole thread have been as bad as the eyelid argument

I am actually not arguing.

MotionMan

You must be delusional then.

You are so staunchly for it I would venture to say either you have a religious obligation to do it or something more subtle.

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

If the the person has a perfect or nearly perfect teeth and they're force into it, then yes, its wrong. But if a person has Cletus the Slackjawed Yokel teeth, its in their medical interests to have the condition fixed.

Braces in a crooked mouth = fixing a problem
Newborn circumcision = cosmetic surgery

But crooked teeth are not a "medical problem" in most cases. Generally it is a cosmetic issue that can go unfixed for life without any issues (other than looks).

In any event, I am limiting the discussion to purely cosmetic braces and "extra" tooth removal (both of which I had when I was a minor and had no choice).

MotionMan

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: GiggleGirl

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

ummm how is this relevant at all? lol
you call it "extra" skin.... it is skin that has complete biological and sexual PURPOSE... its not just extra... like a skin tag or whatever. ITS PART OF YOUR FLIPPIN PENIS, the way you were BORN!

"extra" teeth...for chewing...the way you were born...

If the teeth are causing a problem and the best solution is removal, then remove them. If your appendix is causing a problem and the best solution is removal, then remove it.

Medical need vs. cosmetic surgery.

I am limiting the discussion to purely cosmetic braces and "extra" tooth removal.

MotionMan

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

When you do it "just because" and there is no problem YES!

Your arguments this whole thread have been as bad as the eyelid argument

I am actually not arguing.

MotionMan

You must be delusional then.

You are so staunchly for it I would venture to say either you have a religious obligation to do it or something more subtle.

I am for it at this time. I am reading the arguments against it and examining my views. To examine those views, I need to further investigate the opposing view. As lawyer, I tend to examine differing views by analogy.

At this moment, I would like to understand the issue the anti-circumcision crowd's have based on the "involuntary" aspect of circumcision. In my own life, I had oral surgery and braces forced upon me as a minor for purely cosmetic reasons. I was just wondering how those who are against circumcision view involuntary cosmetic oral surgery and orthodontial work on minors.

MotionMan

 

[BUTCH1]

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: MotionMan

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: MotionMan
Are people who are against circumcision against removing "extra" teeth in kids mouths (because their mouths are "too small")?

How about teeth braces for kids?

MotionMan

When you do it "just because" and there is no problem YES!

Your arguments this whole thread have been as bad as the eyelid argument

I am actually not arguing.

MotionMan

You must be delusional then.

You are so staunchly for it I would venture to say either you have a religious obligation to do it or something more subtle.

I am for it at this time. I am reading the arguments against it and examining my views. To examine those views, I need to further investigate the opposing view. As lawyer, I tend to examine differing views by analogy.

At this moment, I would like to understand the issue the anti-circumcision crowd's have based on the "involuntary" aspect of circumcision. In my own life, I had oral surgery and braces forced upon me as a minor for purely cosmetic reasons. I was just wondering how those who are against circumcision view involuntary cosmetic oral surgery and orthodontial work on minors.

MotionMan

Your missing an important point, even though the braces/removal were forced upon you they probably resulted in an improvement in bite and appearance. Even though it may have been uncomfortable and you didn't like it there was really no long term downside to these procedures. Circumcision just for the cause of a cuter dick with possible permanent downsides is just wrong.