Poll: end the economic block of Cuba

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dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
^^ Govt not by the people.. 99% say end it.. but our politicians are sick and like to hurt people is my honest opinion.. they know what it is doing and has done and they go home.. clean their face and go spew more shit every day.. they kiss their kids and never imagine what they do to others
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Actually the Cuban revolution was a result of an attempt to overthrow a corrupt government that had come to power via a coup.
The new Cuban government then began confiscating American businesses (mainly sugar and banana plantations) and shutting down the mob run gambling operations.

Cuban independence from Spain, and Castro's 'revolution' are two completely different things; that's my point.

I lived in Miami for quite a few years and have many good Cuban friends, I do not believe they would appreciate confusing the these two very different things.

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Tobacco, although I've heard the quality has gone down in the last few years.

I don't do cigars, but know people who do. The Cuban tobacco can be shipped to other countries and made (rolled) into cigars and sold here. I have been given some of those in the past.

There is no such thing as an embargo that cannot be circumvented. The question is will Cuba export their best tobacco to Honduras etc so that they can roll it up and package it for sale to the West.

Fern
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I think the ban is pointless. We trade with lots of communist and socialst countries. We should try to end this little spat and just accept the people of Cuba as they are. There are still a lot of issues to work out, but we should allow travel to and from Cuba and open up trade. If we could open up free travel between the USA and Cuba maybe people could be free to visit their relatives. We should have ended this 20 years ago.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,584
7,646
136
Don't you think it's fascinating, that our supposed representative government has thus far remained incapable of enacting the will of 90% of the people.
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,641
58
91
Cuban independence from Spain, and Castro's 'revolution' are two completely different things; that's my point.

I lived in Miami for quite a few years and have many good Cuban friends, I do not believe they would appreciate confusing the these two very different things.

Fern

Though the word Craig used was wrong his point was correct. The US government supported Batista and his thugs due to American business interests there.
After Batista was kicked out and Castro came to power they actually looked at the US for recognition. When the Congress rejected his overtures to them he turned to the Soviets, starting down the path of what would eventually lead to the embargo and missile crisis.
 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
12,032
2
0
I don't do cigars, but know people who do. The Cuban tobacco can be shipped to other countries and made (rolled) into cigars and sold here. I have been given some of those in the past.

There is no such thing as an embargo that cannot be circumvented. The question is will Cuba export their best tobacco to Honduras etc so that they can roll it up and package it for sale to the West.

Fern

Interesting. I've seen Cuban seed tobacco in cigars, but not actual Cuban tobacco itself.

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,219,00.html
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
Ending the embargo would also be good for Major League baseball.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Although my gut says to support the ban, my brain has to point out the historical success of the ban - nil. All it has done is to make the grip of the Cuban government even stronger on the Cuban people by stoking the fires of nationalism against the US. From a strategic/geopolitical standpoint, ending the ban would allow the US to gain more influence in Cuba than we currently have, which could be a change for the better.

Obama should probably apologize for the damage we've done to Cuba and offer to pay for damages...
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Though the word Craig used was wrong his point was correct. The US government supported Batista and his thugs due to American business interests there.
After Batista was kicked out and Castro came to power they actually looked at the US for recognition. When the Congress rejected his overtures to them he turned to the Soviets, starting down the path of what would eventually lead to the embargo and missile crisis.

I re-read my post in light of your comment and will clarify.

When I wrote it, I was thinking strictly in terms of the Cuban history related to the trade block, i.e., the Castro revolution.

When I said what their independence is related to, I meant in contrast to virtually all other Latin American countries in the period who have relations relatively co-operative with the US as the dominant nation, to varying degrees, I mean independance from the US influence, 'doing their own thing' as far as independent from the US unlike others, and attempting with varying degrees of success to encourage other nations to be more independent of the US as well.

(Some might ask, but wasn't Cuba not independent, but a Soviet satellite state? I'd say no - they had an alliance of convenience and Cuba was expected to show some level of political support for the USSR in exchange for the support it got, but it was always primarily an independent state and even criticized the USSR at the height of the cold war, albeit with constraints. They used each other.)

But, I can see how the term 'independence' could be confusing, since it's most often linked to the end of the Spanish role. On the other hand, I don't want to change the word from 'independence' to 'revoution' because I think 'independence' better captures the topic of independence from US influence after the revolution, while revolution is in regards to the specific Batista regime that happened to have US backing.

I agree with you that Castro wanted a US relationship; I'm not familiar with a lot of the details but my impression is that it was a combination of error in the US approach - this was in the 'any ally, however much a brutal right-wing dictator (Batista was not the worst at all), is a good partner while we oppose anyone at all 'left' period, under Eisenhower and the Dulles brothers (who infuriated Churchill with their refusal to accept any peace with the USSR); and that Castro wanted a leftist approach the US just was not ready for.

Castro was not that reasonable a person to reach peace with. At a time we were backing brutal regimes who partnered with US corporations to exploit the countries, we weren't even close to allying with him with his leftist economics that would not be too friendly to exploitation by US firms.

This mistake not to reach some peaceful arrangement would have seemed a lot worse if it had actually led to the nuclear exchange we came closer to than most realize in 1962.

For a note on the relaitonship with the USSR, Kruschev infuriated Castro by agreeing to withdraw the missiles without any consultation with Castro, who heard it about it from the news IIRC. On the other hand, Kruschev thought Castro was nuts based on Castro's saying to him privately that the independence from the US was important enough an issue that the nuking of Cuba was an acceptable price to pay and nuclear war was worth it to not let the US have dominance (including with their missiles on the Soviet border).

I wonder what Castro would say later about that position, I haven't seen any comments. It's good to remember though that Castro wasn't alone, many in the US similarly had too low a bar for justifying nuclear war, including some at the top of the Pentagon, who Kennedy thought were about as nuts as Kruschev did Castro.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Obama should probably apologize for the damage we've done to Cuba and offer to pay for damages...

Your attempt at sarcasm pretty much backfired.

I have no problem with the US apologizing for continuing the trade block as long as it has. This thread is filled with Americans, many on the right, saying in effect 'it should have ended decades ago'. That's called a mistake. The block has hurt the Cuban people quite a bit for a long time. World opinion seems pretty universal that it's wrong.

Those are all pretty good grounds for saying 'we made a mistake'.

That would improve the US approval in the world.

As for paying for the damages - I'll stop short there. The bar for paying damages is higher. I could see some aid for a country like Vietnam - 'sorry, we dropped more bombs on you than there were in WWII and killed 2 million of you for not a very good reason' - but the US was within its rights to have a mistaken trade embargo with Cuba, and I don't feel the need for paying them for the admitted harm the bad policy caused. They didn't have the 'right' to trade with us, we didn't cause direct losses, just loss of trade benefits.

But you of the George Bush school of diplomacy can go on improving the US relationship with the world your own way with sarcasm the US could ever apologize for any act.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
1 or 2 of the 'no' votes have posted why, none as far as I know of the 3 'other' votes have, all are encouraged to explain their view.
 

gar3555

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
3,510
0
0
My no vote was by accident, I will admit. I clicked, and then realized what I had selected. I am for removing the ban. I see no reason for it at this time. Plus I want me some Cuban cigars.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Tobacco, although I've heard the quality has gone down in the last few years.

Don't worry, progressives will find a way to ban tobacco, along with the sugar based drinks raved about in the original post. Or at least tax it into oblivion.

We must think of the children!
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,653
10,517
136
Common sense seems to make most people realize the embargo makes NO sense.

The problem is the Cuban immigrant demographic in Florida, which has a lot of power because FL is a swing state. That is exactly why the electoral college is a disaster.

I see you actually understand politics on this political forum. This is the answer as to why there is still an embargo against Cuba.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
I voted no, but for purely selfish reasons. Legal Cuban cigars are a short 30 minute drive from my home. Legitimate non-counterfeit Cuban cigars are expensive enough as it is, flooding the market with millions of new buyers will only drive prices even higher.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Boycotts/embargoes/blockades etc are sick disgusting sadist efforts. Only people who hurt are ones on your side. It entrenches the power elite, the ones you want out or to comply. And makes generations of enemies.

You want to kill someone? Man up and do it don't go after strangers/innocents.

How many pro America freedom lovers were killed and jailed by the Beard? How many tortured to find people who sympathized with America who was punishing her? How many pro-American Kurds wiped out and tortured out by Saddam due to our pressure? All through history same thing. Boycotts/embargoes/blockades are a cowards way to fight and hurts innocents most.
 
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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Cuba, is still shoving it in our face.

So it's easy to continue the ban.

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
It's almost funny, that the last communist (and proud of it!) country in the world, is in our Hemisphere.

-John
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
I voted other because I think we should look at a limited end to the economic ban.
 
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