POLL: Extending Constitutional Protections

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Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger


There are fundamental rights we must grant everyone, if only because we are a civilized, moral society. The Bush apologists want to deny those rights, patting themselves on the back for rationalizing a legal loophole to avoid acting morally. I find this repugnant.
Bow, considering the volume of your opinion, there must be something that cements in your mind that The Bush apologists are denying those fundamental rights that we must grant everyone.

As a matter of simple logic, for you to come to that conclusion and be able to defend your thought process, you would need to know what the current procedure is for the people that are detained without constitutional protection. The rules, the regulations, the whole nuts and bolts of the process that they go through currently.

Its time to ante up Bow.....

 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
I see you have a reading comprehension problem as well. Some of you here repeat the same lies so often that people begin to accept them as truthful. The Bush administration is a master at this same tactic. I was drawing a parallel. Any other painfully obvious concepts I can explain for you?
LMAO. You're hilarious when you try to cover obvious missteps by pretending that others missed something obvious.

What 'same lies' were repeated here? You came up with a good twenty sentences to respond to about three written by CADsortaGUY about a deliberately hypothetical question, so we could all ponder and respond to the idea without tainting it with references to current events.

Explain to us the painfully obvious concept of why you're too braindead to realize that you universally act the part of a partisan hack instead of coming up with actual on-topic responses. Have you ever responded to a post without starting off with a mass of whining about other posters first?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
From Ozoned-

"As a matter of simple logic, for you to come to that conclusion and be able to defend your thought process, you would need to know what the current procedure is for the people that are detained without constitutional protection. The rules, the regulations, the whole nuts and bolts of the process that they go through currently. "

Nicely obfuscational, and an excellent attempt to place the burden of proof on the other party. In order for our govt to exercise legitimate authority at all, that authority must come from the constitution itself, and must be tested within the structure of the legal system.

Where in the constitution does it allow for anybody to be detained w/o its protections?
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
I have to be a pragmatist here and say that no; constitutional protections are for citizens. however the geneva convention is for everyone.

I would also like to see america live up to it's "moral obligations" and treat all prisoners with decency, and due process, as set out by such documents as the geneva convention. The torture and rumors of torture, and humiliation needs to go away and america needs to be the bigger man.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn


Where in the constitution does it allow for anybody to be detained w/o its protections?

The Congress shall have Power:............................



To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water
Now, You want to take a stab at my question, jhhnn?
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
but to claim we want to torture them is more than asinine.

CsG

Who is 'we'?

If you would have read the post I was responding to you'd know "we" is "you guys". Got anything else you don't understand gaard?

CsG

Yes, I don't understand how you can speak for others. Did they give you some kind of power of attorney or something?

I'm quite sure I speak for many on the right(in the right ) when I said that we don't advocating torture. Or are you one of those who think us on the right want to torture prisoners?

What a joke...:roll:

CsG
So you ARE saying that you speak for others on here?

Mind taking the time to tell me who you do and who you don't speak for? Do you speak for Daniel1113? How about Dari? Or are you just saying that when you said "we don't support terror", you mearly meant those that agree with you?

Yes gaard, one can reasonably argue that what I said as in "we" can be applied to many if not all of us on the right. Are you trying to imply(claim) that we do advocate torture?
Anyway, your little game is silly, although not as amusing as Bowfinger's little hissy fit.

CsG
Again, I have to ask...who is 'we'? Does your 'we' include Daniel1113?

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Also note how the terrorist apologists don't like to entertain the fact that terrorists could be guilty.

CsG

Who is this and why are they terrorist apologists?

 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
but to claim we want to torture them is more than asinine.

CsG

Who is 'we'?

If you would have read the post I was responding to you'd know "we" is "you guys". Got anything else you don't understand gaard?

CsG

Yes, I don't understand how you can speak for others. Did they give you some kind of power of attorney or something?

I'm quite sure I speak for many on the right(in the right ) when I said that we don't advocating torture. Or are you one of those who think us on the right want to torture prisoners?

What a joke...:roll:

CsG
So you ARE saying that you speak for others on here?

Mind taking the time to tell me who you do and who you don't speak for? Do you speak for Daniel1113? How about Dari? Or are you just saying that when you said "we don't support terror", you mearly meant those that agree with you?

Yes gaard, one can reasonably argue that what I said as in "we" can be applied to many if not all of us on the right. Are you trying to imply(claim) that we do advocate torture?
Anyway, your little game is silly, although not as amusing as Bowfinger's little hissy fit.

CsG
Again, I have to ask...who is 'we'? Does your 'we' include Daniel1113?
Weren't you already told the answer Gaard?

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Mind taking the time to tell me who you do and who you don't speak for? Do you speak for Daniel1113? How about Dari? Or are you just saying that when you said "we don't support terror", you mearly meant those that agree with you?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
but to claim we want to torture them is more than asinine.

CsG

Who is 'we'?

If you would have read the post I was responding to you'd know "we" is "you guys". Got anything else you don't understand gaard?

CsG

Yes, I don't understand how you can speak for others. Did they give you some kind of power of attorney or something?

I'm quite sure I speak for many on the right(in the right ) when I said that we don't advocating torture. Or are you one of those who think us on the right want to torture prisoners?

What a joke...:roll:

CsG
So you ARE saying that you speak for others on here?

Mind taking the time to tell me who you do and who you don't speak for? Do you speak for Daniel1113? How about Dari? Or are you just saying that when you said "we don't support terror", you mearly meant those that agree with you?

Yes gaard, one can reasonably argue that what I said as in "we" can be applied to many if not all of us on the right. Are you trying to imply(claim) that we do advocate torture?
Anyway, your little game is silly, although not as amusing as Bowfinger's little hissy fit.

CsG
Again, I have to ask...who is 'we'? Does your 'we' include Daniel1113?
Weren't you already told the answer Gaard?


Yes he was, but since gaard seems to be having problems as of late I will once again post it.

"I'm quite sure I speak for many on the right(in the right ) when I said that we don't advocating torture."
and then again here:
"Yes gaard, one can reasonably argue that what I said as in "we" can be applied to many if not all of us on the right."

Now answer my question that I posed twice.
"Are you trying to imply(claim) that we do advocate torture?"/"Or are you one of those who think us on the right want to torture prisoners?"

CsG
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
CAD - You're only willing to say that when you say 'we', it probably means 'many'? No more specific than that?

I don't know how to answer your question if I don't know who you are speaking for. If you are speaking only for those who agree with you, then no, I'm not implying that you're advocating torture. If, by 'we', you mean all Republicans, I have to tell you that you are mistaken...and if you were an honest person, you'd agree.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Gaard
CAD - You're only willing to say that when you say 'we', it probably means 'many'? No more specific than that?

I don't know how to answer your question if I don't know who you are speaking for. If you are speaking only for those who agree with you, then no, I'm not implying that you're advocating torture. If, by 'we', you mean all Republicans, I have to tell you that you are mistaken...and if you were an honest person, you'd agree.

gaard - you are smart enough to know that I won't fall for your little "all" BS.
As I mentioned long ago in this thread - the "we" is the "you guys" Rainsford used.
"We" don't advocate torture, whether the "we"= the left, right, fence sitters, or America as a whole. Take your pick of who "we" or "you guys" are and then answer the question. No, not "all" - if I wanted to say "all" - I would have said it and your little game might have had some merit -but as it sits it is just childish nitpicking to create an argument.

CsG
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Once a person is in custody, then they should have the right to legal counsel, to be charged if held captive, a speedy trial and the opportunity to plead their case before a jury.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Rainsford - Who did you mean when you said 'you guys'?

CAD - If you know who he was speaking of, and apparently you do, you can tell me...problem solved, simple as that.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Once a person is in custody, then they should have the right to legal counsel, to be charged if held captive, a speedy trial and the opportunity to plead their case before a jury.



Maybe they do....

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Once a person is in custody, then they should have the right to legal counsel, to be charged if held captive, a speedy trial and the opportunity to plead their case before a jury.



Maybe they do....

Maybe isn't good enough. Our traditional system of justice can deal with this. If it cannot, then it isn't fit for anyone.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Once a person is in custody, then they should have the right to legal counsel, to be charged if held captive, a speedy trial and the opportunity to plead their case before a jury.



Maybe they do....

Maybe isn't good enough. Our traditional system of justice can deal with this. If it cannot, then it isn't fit for anyone.

No it can't.




 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Once a person is in custody, then they should have the right to legal counsel, to be charged if held captive, a speedy trial and the opportunity to plead their case before a jury.



Maybe they do....

Maybe isn't good enough. Our traditional system of justice can deal with this. If it cannot, then it isn't fit for anyone.

No it can't.


You have tremendous faith in the President and none in our system of justice.

You will have to demonstrate that it cannot before I throw it away, or bastardize it. Seems I have more faith in my country than you.

Demonstrate in fact that it cannot work.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Once a person is in custody, then they should have the right to legal counsel, to be charged if held captive, a speedy trial and the opportunity to plead their case before a jury.



Maybe they do....

Maybe isn't good enough. Our traditional system of justice can deal with this. If it cannot, then it isn't fit for anyone.

No it can't.


You have tremendous faith in the President and none in our system of justice.

You will have to demonstrate that it cannot before I throw it away, or bastardize it. Seems I have more faith in my country than you.

Demonstrate in fact that it cannot work.


Two letters.

O and J...


 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Once a person is in custody, then they should have the right to legal counsel, to be charged if held captive, a speedy trial and the opportunity to plead their case before a jury.



Maybe they do....

Maybe isn't good enough. Our traditional system of justice can deal with this. If it cannot, then it isn't fit for anyone.

No it can't.


Two letters.

O and J...


You have tremendous faith in the President and none in our system of justice.

You will have to demonstrate that it cannot before I throw it away, or bastardize it. Seems I have more faith in my country than you.

Demonstrate in fact that it cannot work.


Is it perfect? Never said so. But it's better than any alternative. It is as fundamental to freedom as the right to vote. What good is electing an official when that person can decide you fate arbitrarily.

If OJ is your rational, then overturn the whole thing, and have everyone presumed guilty, and then they must prove themselves innocent. That way the guilty never get away. The Constitution is "quaint" anyway.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Thanks, ozoned, for bringing that part of the constitution to everybody's attention, I figured you would.

Since you did, then I'm sure you realize that contained wihin the UCMJ and the Geneva conventions, adopted by Congress, are all the rules and regulations required to handle detainees, which CsG and the Bush Admin are attempting to thwart, to find a way around...

So, if detainees are treated according to the principles in those documents, it's likely constitutional. But that's not what's being advocated, is it?

The questions in the poll assume that detainees will never receive legal standing unless it's granted them by the current admin, which is, fortunately, entirely untrue... Those are apparently the nuts and bolts of the secret and as yet undivulged procedure you reference with your unanswerable question. They'll be held until the SCOTUS gets fed up with the Admin's shenanigans, or until their care and feeding is outsourced to some other nations... Even then, I doubt that's strictly constitutional, at all, or is desirable in any way. That would mean that anybody could be whisked away to some offshore facility, and have no recourse at all, given that the Admin would simply claim to not have them in custody...
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Once a person is in custody, then they should have the right to legal counsel, to be charged if held captive, a speedy trial and the opportunity to plead their case before a jury.



Maybe they do....

Maybe isn't good enough. Our traditional system of justice can deal with this. If it cannot, then it isn't fit for anyone.

No it can't.


Two letters.

O and J...


You have tremendous faith in the President and none in our system of justice.

You will have to demonstrate that it cannot before I throw it away, or bastardize it. Seems I have more faith in my country than you.

Demonstrate in fact that it cannot work.


Is it perfect? Never said so. But it's better than any alternative. It is as fundamental to freedom as the right to vote. What good is electing an official when that person can decide you fate arbitrarily.

If OJ is your rational, then overturn the whole thing, and have everyone presumed guilty, and then they must prove themselves innocent. That way the guilty never get away. The Constitution is "quaint" anyway.

A simple scenerio.

A Saudi ambassador smuggles in a Nuclear device and detonates it in NYC. 3,000,000 are killed.


What would you do Winston?

Do you honor his Diplomatic Immunity or do you strip him of the rights afforded to him under the constitution?





 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Thanks, ozoned, for bringing that part of the constitution to everybody's attention, I figured you would.

Since you did, then I'm sure you realize that contained wihin the UCMJ and the Geneva conventions, adopted by Congress, are all the rules and regulations required to handle detainees, which CsG and the Bush Admin are attempting to thwart, to find a way around...

So, if detainees are treated according to the principles in those documents, it's likely constitutional. But that's not what's being advocated, is it?

The questions in the poll assume that detainees will never receive legal standing unless it's granted them by the current admin, which is, fortunately, entirely untrue... Those are apparently the nuts and bolts of the secret and as yet undivulged procedure you reference with your unanswerable question. They'll be held until the SCOTUS gets fed up with the Admin's shenanigans, or until their care and feeding is outsourced to some other nations... Even then, I doubt that's strictly constitutional, at all, or is desirable in any way. That would mean that anybody could be whisked away to some offshore facility, and have no recourse at all, given that the Admin would simply claim to not have them in custody...

Wrong, it is you who is assuming. They are afforded the legal standing of an illegal enemy combatant. But it seems you and people like you want to see them given our Constitutional rights -which at that point makes the fight internal - not external.

Oh, and no one is "thwarting" anything. These people are being afforded the "rights" underwhich they fall. They are not citizens, not from here or anything else. And you can dispense with the strawman "round up everyone in the world" BS. We don't just indescriminately put them in guantanamo. The people put themselves in that position by being where they were or doing what they were doing. Should they get a trial? Absolutely - I've never advocated them not getting one. Should they be tortured - absolutely not. I have never advocated doing so.

CsG
 
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