POLL: Hmm, while on the point . . ..

[leinadM]

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
As part of an academic curiculum, I've read the bible. It was generally lackluster.

Well it certainly ain't there for your entertainment...

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: leinadM

Originally posted by: Hatari Chic

Originally posted by: leinadM
Has anyone ever read Genesis??????

Most of the folks on AT don't take the Bible at face value. Most people everywhere don't take the Bible at face value. What school do you go to?

Yeah uh I know that.

Then of what relevance is it if they've read it or not, for the purposes of this argument?

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: leinadM
Has anyone ever read Genesis??????

Yes I have.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth tender sprouts ( the herb seeding seed and the fruit tree producing fruit after its kind, whose seed is in itself) upon the earth; and it was so....
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarmers having a living soul; and let birds fly over the earth on the face of the expanse of the heavens.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creepers, and its beasts of the earth after its kind; and it was so.
25 And God made the beasts of the earth after its kind, and cattle after their kind, and all creepers upon the earth after their kind. And God saw that it was good.
27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

It clearly says plants came first, then sea creatures, then mammals and other beasts, then at the very last man. What does evoution say? Almost the exact same thing in the exact same order.

Y'know, in the Scopes Monkey Trial in Kansas, that's just about how they got evolution included in the school curriculum. The whole thing hinged on whether or not a literal "day" was meant.

 

[DuallyX]

Originally posted by: Krye
Where's the "I am both" option?

 

[leinadM]

Originally posted by: Hatari Chic

Originally posted by: leinadM

Originally posted by: Hatari Chic

Originally posted by: leinadM
Has anyone ever read Genesis??????

Most of the folks on AT don't take the Bible at face value. Most people everywhere don't take the Bible at face value. What school do you go to?

Yeah uh I know that.

Then of what relevance is it if they've read it or not, for the purposes of this argument?

Well the Bible states that God created the world in days, not millions of years. So if they are talking about God, and how we came to be, then I feel the need to mention the book of the Bible that tells you all about it.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: Jehovah

Originally posted by: Krye
Where's the "I am both" option?

You can't be both!

Prove me wrong - explain to me why/HOW IN THE WORLD you can be both.

What if God created evolution? Proving you wrong is folly - they are unprovable beliefs. If God is all-powerful, he could have easily forged the evolutionary mechanism into the system. Why not?

Well, the problem is, if the "god" you mention is in the traditional sense, there's not a chance in hell he'd let evolution take place:

For example, look at the components that take place in evolution; "survival of the fittest" and "variation in species"

Survival of the fittest has to be entailed by the facts that there are limited resources but unlimited wants (and that there's no "omni-organism" that can adapt to any environment) - in this case, that every organism's goal in life is to procreate:

For that to occur, one must have specific advantages against other organisms to survive - variation in species - it's not quite "evolution" but rather a "muatation" because the changes we develop are by chance, not with built in intent - to say that we have intent in these changes are ridiculous because animals and plants (with a lower level of congiscent ability) have evolved as well. And if there's such as thing as an "omni-organism" that we're all striving towards and there's intent in our changes, there wouldn't be such a variance in life in the planet today. These "mutations" can only be considered "evolutions" if it has proven itself in its applications (the same line of idea as that "the winners are the good guys"). Yes, what I'm saying is that it is purely by chance that we have come into being. It could have easily happened that some prehistoric beast could have gobbled us up and we'd be wiped out by now.

If there IS a god (in the traditional sense), he would not have forged such a random system without his intent built-in. If so, he/she/it has made us only to amuse himself, because there is not specific intent, no "end point" in our evolution. And because he has left us with no intent, if god is such a benevolent being, there's no way to say that he can judge us/tell us that we've gone "against" his wishes.

That's the idea in a small nutshell. I had to write my term paper on the topic, among other things, and I had to put that into a few paragraphs - if you wish to object, bring it up and I'll see if I said anything about that.

 

[DuallyX]

Y'know, in the Scopes Monkey Trial in Kansas, that's just about how they got evolution included in the school curriculum. The whole thing hinged on whether or not a literal "day" was meant.

The Scopes Monkey trial happened in Dayton, Tennessee.

 

[leinadM]

To Hatari Chick: "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth".

 

[isaacmacdonald]

Originally posted by: leinadM

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
As part of an academic curiculum, I've read the bible. It was generally lackluster.

Well it certainly ain't there for your entertainment...

If not for entertainment than what? I certainly hope not education. I might concede there's some historical value, but that's about it.

 

[leinadM]

Time to go eat. For any believer out there, remember this: "If God is with us, who can be against us?".

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Dual700s

Y'know, in the Scopes Monkey Trial in Kansas, that's just about how they got evolution included in the school curriculum. The whole thing hinged on whether or not a literal "day" was meant.

The Scopes Monkey trial happened in Dayton, Tennessee.

Whoops, my bad. Got it mixed up with the more recent fuss in Kansas about creationism being taught.

To Hatari Chick: "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth".

Same here. And Christ used parables that were applicable to his time and culture to help people understand, and quoted scripture to those it profited to hear scripture.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: leinadM
Time to go eat. For any believer out there, remember this: "If God is with us, who can be against us?".

Buddha

 

[Jzero]

That's the idea in a small nutshell. I had to write my term paper on the topic, among other things, and I had to put that into a few paragraphs - if you wish to object, bring it up and I'll see if I said anything about that.

My only point of contention would be with this statement:

If there IS a god (in the traditional sense), he would not have forged such a random system without his intent built-in. If so, he/she/it has made us only to amuse himself, because there is not specific intent, no "end point" in our evolution. And because he has left us with no intent, if god is such a benevolent being, there's no way to say that he can judge us/tell us that we've gone "against" his wishes.

With this statement you presume to know what was on God's mind - that he would not have forged a random system, or that that he created us for anything other than his own amusement. How do you know?

As for intent, he left human beings, in whatever evolutionary form they may take over the next millions of years, the wish to serve him. I don't see how even random evolution would change that.

 

[FoBoT]

i don't have a cat

oh, on topic, how about both?

maybe God created evolution

 

[MistaTastyCakes]

Creationist here! I have faith...simply in my own, and scientific beliefs though. So many people take the word "faith" meaning only religion - we all have faith in one way or another

 

[4Lclovergirl]

I am both

I was taught that when god created the world, his definition and ours may be different. So maybe he created that first particle of dust that imploded and created the universe. Or made the conditions just so that it could happen as well. Then when Earth came about, and he liked it, he made it possible for the first life forms to form, and guided them to where they are today. Yes it says he made the world in 7 days, but dont' all difernet planets have differnt days? What's a day to a god? Not to mention before he created the sun how was there a "day." So while he knew what shape he wanted us to take, he let us evolve into it. In my church they believe in a free will. So while he may have had plans for us in mind, he let us shape ourselves through evolution, but he made the conditions possible to take advantage of.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: Jzero

That's the idea in a small nutshell. I had to write my term paper on the topic, among other things, and I had to put that into a few paragraphs - if you wish to object, bring it up and I'll see if I said anything about that.

My only point of contention would be with this statement:

If there IS a god (in the traditional sense), he would not have forged such a random system without his intent built-in. If so, he/she/it has made us only to amuse himself, because there is not specific intent, no "end point" in our evolution. And because he has left us with no intent, if god is such a benevolent being, there's no way to say that he can judge us/tell us that we've gone "against" his wishes.

With this statement you presume to know what was on God's mind - that he would not have forged a random system, or that that he created us for anything other than his own amusement. How do you know?

As for intent, he left human beings, in whatever evolutionary form they may take over the next millions of years, the wish to serve him. I don't see how even random evolution would change that.

Well, let's see, if there is such an omniscent being as god, you are right - it's impossible to know what in the hell that guy's thinking - but it's impossible that he'd contradict himself because god is infallible(and don't tell me that again god's mind is impossible to decipher because this is something from the bible, something designed so that people can understand - and if he's so great, he'd say it in a better manner ragardless of when/how it's written because someof you seem to think he wrote all of that). And obviously he hasn't left all of us with the innate wish to serve him (I'm talking about god in a masculent sense because that's the typical view, BTW - don't get pissed at me feminazis) - otherwise, why would he have atheists, hindus, ancient greeks who worshiped fire, or even Buddhists who believe that there is no such thing as an all-powerful god?

Like I said, if he did build us with amusement in mind (and without intent), we cannot be held accountable for our actions in our "afterlife" to him, but rather only to others we have done damage to.

And this is part of an (admittedly) extreme view that genetics dictate all of our actions - so we have no soul, only chemical reactions in our brain - lots of other implications follwing from that as well (such as determinism).

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: 4Lclovergirl
I am both

I was taught that when god created the world, his definition and ours may be different. So maybe he created that first particle of dust that imploded and created the universe. Or made the conditions just so that it could happen as well. Then when Earth came about, and he liked it, he made it possible for the first life forms to form, and guided them to where they are today. Yes it says he made the world in 7 days, but dont' all difernet planets have differnt days? What's a day to a god? Not to mention before he created the sun how was there a "day." So while he knew what shape he wanted us to take, he let us evolve into it. In my church they believe in a free will. So while he may have had plans for us in mind, he let us shape ourselves through evolution, but he made the conditions possible to take advantage of.

Evolution is random - like I said, if something is "guiding" us to a state where we'd end up as an "omni-organism", everything else would be evolving towards that as well. But there isn't - there's too much variation and differences in lifeforms to say that there's a set organism that we're guided towards.

And about our free will to evolve ourselves - what about all the animals, plants, insects, etc., that have "evolved" as well? It is only recent that organism with a higher level of sentience have existed - how can you account for all the other organimsms? And BTW, if you can guide yourself to evolve into something, that means you must have an idea of such a thing as an "omni-organism". Care to share what it is?

 

[Jzero]

otherwise, why would he have atheists, hindus, ancient greeks who worshiped fire, or even Buddhists who believe that there is no such thing as an all-powerful god?

He created free-will. He gave people the ability to not believe and not follow.

Like I said, if he did build us with amusement in mind (and without intent), we cannot be held accountable for our actions in our "afterlife" to him, but rather only to others we have done damage to.

Why can we not be held accountable? If one accepts that a God is omnipotent, then it is impossible to try to say what that God can and cannot do. There is no logical contradiction. It's like a game that has no real point, yet there are still winners and losers.

Using logic to debate these points is unworkable. We are working under the already logically-tenuous assumption that an omnipotent God created the world and then attempting to confine that God to certain worldly conditions.

As I said - proof of either case is impossible to provide. But there is no reason that people can't believe in both creation and evolution any more than there is a reason people can't belive in God at all.

 

[MikeO]

It's like a game that has no real point, yet there are still winners and losers.

If a game has no point, how can you define a winner and a loser?

Just trying to understand

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: mto81

It's like a game that has no real point, yet there are still winners and losers.

If a game has no point, how can you define a winner and a loser?

Just trying to understand

What is the point of a football game in the grand scheme of the world? There isn't any. Yet someone wins the game because criteria were created to define who is the winner.

If God is omnipotent he can create whatever condition he likes for who is the "winner" and who is the "loser." Again, if you are going to subscribe to the illogical notion that God exists and is omnipotent, then it is pointless to try to hold that God to the confines of logic. Think of your entire life as a single pointless football game if you have to

 

[4Lclovergirl]

Personally, you asked me what I believe in, and I said both. You can't tell me I can't believe in both. You can't tell me what I believe at all. I happen to be a bioloist, hoping to specialize in genetics for my PhD, and fully believe in evolution. However, I am also firmly rooted in my religious beliefs, and that the 2 can coexist together. If you are going to ask for someone's beliefs, if you dont' agree, fince, but don't tell them they can't believe that way.

And who's to say we are the final product anyway? And why can't other plants and animals evolve not becoming humans if god was evolved. We still need to eat etc. Maybe his hand was just there that second when the first male and female were created, he guided in that few seconds. Decididng that's what he wanted. But personally, I am not one to questiona god and his rational.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: Jzero

otherwise, why would he have atheists, hindus, ancient greeks who worshiped fire, or even Buddhists who believe that there is no such thing as an all-powerful god?

He created free-will. He gave people the ability to not believe and not follow.

Like I said, if he did build us with amusement in mind (and without intent), we cannot be held accountable for our actions in our "afterlife" to him, but rather only to others we have done damage to.

Why can we not be held accountable? If one accepts that a God is omnipotent, then it is impossible to try to say what that God can and cannot do. There is no logical contradiction. It's like a game that has no real point, yet there are still winners and losers.

Using logic to debate these points is unworkable. We are working under the already logically-tenuous assumption that an omnipotent God created the world and then attempting to confine that God to certain worldly conditions.

As I said - proof of either case is impossible to provide. But there is no reason that people can't believe in both creation and evolution any more than there is a reason people can't belive in God at all.

Actually, gah - this is why it's so hard to argue faith - free will cannot be proven, but there are data proofs that correspond emotions with brain chemistry - you can counter that with simply saying "god made it" but like you said, if god's mind is unreadable, how do you know if he made it or not?

Again, I agree that if such a being existed, I can't fully understand his intent - as a child to an adult - but even a child knows that it is simply impossible to contradict oneself and still be correct.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: 4Lclovergirl
I happen to be a bioloist, hoping to specialize in genetics for my PhD

*Humanities major bows in awe*

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: 4Lclovergirl
Personally, you asked me what I believe in, and I said both. You can't tell me I can't believe in both. You can't tell me what I believe at all. I happen to be a bioloist, hoping to specialize in genetics for my PhD, and fully believe in evolution. However, I am also firmly rooted in my religious beliefs, and that the 2 can coexist together. If you are going to ask for someone's beliefs, if you dont' agree, fince, but don't tell them they can't believe that way.

And who's to say we are the final product anyway? And why can't other plants and animals evolve not becoming humans if god was evolved. We still need to eat etc. Maybe his hand was just there that second when the first male and female were created, he guided in that few seconds. Decididng that's what he wanted. But personally, I am not one to questiona god and his rational.

Correct. I was wrong to impose my beliefs onto you when I asked what you thought. But at the same time, I'm also stating my opinion as well. I didn't mean to be a jerk (or imply that you're some idiot), so I am sorry, but I'm not about to retract what I said.