Poll: Left vs Right in a Civil War. Who will win?

[Jhhnn]

But the reality is they're mostly not poor, or at least better off than the lower socioeconomic classes and punching above what their competence merit. They just believe they should be rich if not for the latter dragging them down, despite lack of discernible skills. Ie. the temporarily embarrassed capitalists. There are certainly a number of them here who classify as dunning kruger posterkids, and their political affiliation is no mystery.

I'll grant that some on the right may be unreachable. OTOH, what you offer merely deepens the divide & offers no answers. If they're looking down their noses at other people then you're obviously doing the same.

We need to find real ways to ease these insecurities & ways to alter headsets to accept them. We need to build confidence & optimism so that everybody can better reject fear & those who spread it.

 

[zinfamous]

They were suckered into believing that bullshit in the first place.

Yeah, but you realize that type of analysis "it's not their fault that they don't know any better," plays into the theory that they need some "superman" or anointed elite to fix everything for them. I agree that this is pretty much how they feel--this is exactly how fascists succeed and is the only explanation for a "superman" in their minds, like Donald Trump, to show up and promise to fix things with empty blabbering and "don't worry, just trust me that I know everything" messages.

It doesn't help.

They already distrust elites and the typical data-driven, analysis laden, social-experimentation policies that have pretty much defined the most recent generations of American progress. They are just sick of it. The solution isn't to replace the type of failed and vacuous superman that they trust with the type of superman "elite" that they are long conditioned to distrust.

I honestly think the only thing to do with the extreme minority of these people is to let their generational senescence put them into the pit where they have driven themselves, and simply wait for the kids that are just fed up with the bullshit being fed to them by their elders to crawl out and join the rest of the outside, advanced world. I think it's fair to air lift supplies or whatever so that these folks don't resort to cannibalism like they do in the hinterlands of the DPRNK (you know, basic healthcare, access to education and child care, subsidies for skill improvement and jobs, training and land grants to run small farms that support their local communities. I think you eally have to accept that enough of them, eventually, will figure out how to pull themselves up by the very bootstraps that they certainly believe exist. Support them with a minimum of effort so that they don't kill themselves or work to bring down the rest of humanity in the process.

Essentially, I don't think the victim acceptance and regime/superman replacement theory that you propose is in any way superior to the laissez faire victim blaming that I endorse.

 

[Jaskalas]

Wars these days aren't fought with smallarms, no matter how macho their wannabe commando owners.

The Middle East proves that smallarms have a role to play.

You're thinking full scale war between nations and their toys but that's not entirely how it'd play out. Infrastructure would be the primary target. Rendering a lot of what we do ineffective and impossible to deploy. If there are any military forces involved in a revolt... sending missiles up into space to destroy Satellites would be a top priority. "Victory" demands removing the "eyes in the sky". Don't even need to know your target... a debris cloud up in space would eventually take them out.

See, a real war in the US would be scorched earth with all possible tactics.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think it'd be an ugly stalemate. I don't know a lot about the right, but I've sure been seeing plenty of how the LEFT fights.
In short; cowardly - but dirty. They don't care about truth, rights, methods, or who they hurt in the process - so long as they're the ones on top at the end of the day, and their methodology/doctrines are the ones to govern everyone.

In a direct confrontation, they're a barely-organized angry mob that runs out of steam quick, but they're fueled by hatred of "the non" and have already shown they'll pull any dirty trick they like. I can see them poisoning water supplies, attacking women & children, starvation sieges, etc.

Plus they're the undisputed masters of lies/propaganda, and wield shame as a fairly effective weapon (See "white feather campaign".)

This isn't like opponents in a boxing ring, it's more like someone hiding in the shadows to stab the boxer in the back - anything BUT a fair and direct fight where they'd most likely lose.

You seem to have lost track of who's talking stupid shit about armed insurrection & who isn't. But you will rave on as usual about the evil Libruhls, obviously.

The only people who might get themselves killed are the most delusional of the Patriot persuasion. In the process, the rest of us will just stand back & let the police & the FBI take care of it.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yeah, but you realize that type of analysis "it's not their fault that they don't know any better," plays into the theory that they need some "superman" or anointed elite to fix everything for them. I agree that this is pretty much how they feel--this is exactly how fascists succeed and is the only explanation for a "superman" in their minds, like Donald Trump, to show up and promise to fix things with empty blabbering and "don't worry, just trust me that I know everything" messages.

It doesn't help.

They already distrust elites and the typical data-driven, analysis laden, social-experimentation policies that have pretty much defined the most recent generations of American progress. They are just sick of it. The solution isn't to replace the type of failed and vacuous superman that they trust with the type of superman "elite" that they are long conditioned to distrust.

I honestly think the only thing to do with the extreme minority of these people is to let their generational senescence put them into the pit where they have driven themselves, and simply wait for the kids that are just fed up with the bullshit being fed to them by their elders to crawl out and join the rest of the outside, advanced world. I think it's fair to air lift supplies or whatever so that these folks don't resort to cannibalism like they do in the hinterlands of the DPRNK (you know, basic healthcare, access to education and child care, subsidies for skill improvement and jobs, training and land grants to run small farms that support their local communities. I think you eally have to accept that enough of them, eventually, will figure out how to pull themselves up by the very bootstraps that they certainly believe exist. Support them with a minimum of effort so that they don't kill themselves or work to bring down the rest of humanity in the process.

Essentially, I don't think the victim acceptance and regime/superman replacement theory that you propose is in any way superior to the laissez faire victim blaming that I endorse.

I've proposed no such thing. What we need is more mutual respect & understanding, not more divisive bullshit from any quarter.

 

[zinfamous]

I've proposed no such thing. What we need is more mutual respect & understanding, not more divisive bullshit from any quarter.

Oh I certainly agree. I tend to think that the way to show respect for the "Deplorables" is to just let them go out on their own and happily follow their own policies to their inevitable misery. "Educating" them on the failure of their beliefs has never worked and simply won't ever work--so what do? Just let them be at peace until they are ready to join society as the adults that they deserve to be.

This is a class of people that claims that self-reliance and learning-through-experience is the only true course through life. I think that's a noble thing on its own. I agree that people should be free to choose and chart their own course to happiness. But what are you supposed to do when these people repeatedly endorse failed, destructive, regressive policies that promise to drag the rest of the world down to their own miserable state? Ignore them their broad attempts at general leadership and let them chart their own experiment through life. Support them with the meager amounts of support that they will actually accept (Even if they fundamentally require more--I think more support to make themselves better off will simply make them more miserable) until whatever generation of their spawn is ready to join the rest of us.

I don't think "telling them what is best for them" is any way to show them mutual respect after they have roundly rejected such attempts time and time again. Obviously both sides can make concessions in both directions, but we've found ourselves in this intractable position where the attempts of liberals to make concessions is met only with profound rebuke and an offer of nothing more than unconditional support of 100% self-destructive neo-conservative horseshit. At the rate that these young conservatives have been stampeding their way into public office (2/3 of the entire country's federal, state, and local public offices are held by conservatives), do you think they have a mandate to concede anything? I do think a large number of those office holders are reasonable, well-meaning individuals that would prefer an end to Trump and an outright squashing of this "Trump conservative" movement, so maybe the better option is to work with the real politicians that want to do actual work, and try to isolate these intractable folks into their own safe space self-reliance communities with the minimum of gov't aid (keep them relatively disease-free and nourished while they work through their preferred social experimentation).

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh I certainly agree. I tend to think that the way to show respect for the "Deplorables" is to just let them go out on their own and happily follow their own policies to their inevitable misery. "Educating" them on the failure of their beliefs has never worked and simply won't ever work--so what do? Just let them be at peace until they are ready to join society as the adults that they deserve to be.

This is a class of people that claims that self-reliance and learning-through-experience is the only true course through life. I think that's a noble thing on its own. I agree that people should be free to choose and chart their own course to happiness. But what are you supposed to do when these people repeatedly endorse failed, destructive, regressive policies that promise to drag the rest of the world down to their own miserable state? Ignore them their broad attempts at general leadership and let them chart their own experiment through life. Support them with the meager amounts of support that they will actually accept (Even if they fundamentally require more--I think more support to make themselves better off will simply make them more miserable) until whatever generation of their spawn is ready to join the rest of us.

I don't think "telling them what is best for them" is any way to show them mutual respect after they have roundly rejected such attempts time and time again. Obviously both sides can make concessions in both directions, but we've found ourselves in this intractable position where the attempts of liberals to make concessions is met only with profound rebuke and an offer of nothing more than unconditional support of 100% self-destructive neo-conservative horseshit. At the rate that these young conservatives have been stampeding their way into public office (2/3 of the entire country's federal, state, and local public offices are held by conservatives), do you think they have a mandate to concede anything? I do think a large number of those office holders are reasonable, well-meaning individuals that would prefer an end to Trump and an outright squashing of this "Trump conservative" movement, so maybe the better option is to work with the real politicians that want to do actual work, and try to isolate these intractable folks into their own safe space self-reliance communities with the minimum of gov't aid (keep them relatively disease-free and nourished while they work through their preferred social experimentation).

There's no respect in that. Not the tiniest bit.

 

[zinfamous]

There's no respect in that. Not the tiniest bit.

So you propose to keep ignoring their demands and keep trying to tell them what is best for them? You realize that compromise is no solution to them, right?

Have you ever read a Texashiker thread? This is a guy that has a pretty good life, all things considered wtih the state of the world, yet he truly believes that everything is arrayed against him and that outside of his little homestead is a desolate hellscape trundling its way towards the Apocalypse, if only we believe in and do exactly the type of regressive social policies he endorses. He trusts nothing from people with a greater-than-high school education. He trusts nothing beyond the signals he receives from his AM radio. Continuing to tell him that he's wrong and he really could benefit from a little more access and a little more skill development is just further disrespect for his belief-based reality.

What do you do with those people other let them continue on in their happy misery?

 

[Jhhnn]

So you propose to keep ignoring their demands and keep trying to tell them what is best for them? You realize that compromise is no solution to them, right?

Have you ever read a Texashiker thread? This is a guy that has a pretty good life, all things considered wtih the state of the world, yet he truly believes that everything is arrayed against him and that outside of his little homestead is a desolate hellscape trundling its way towards the Apocalypse, if only we believe in and do exactly the type of regressive social policies he endorses. He trusts nothing from people with a greater-than-high school education. He trusts nothing beyond the signals he receives from his AM radio. Continuing to tell him that he's wrong and he really could benefit from a little more access and a little more skill development is just further disrespect for his belief-based reality.

What do you do with those people other let them continue on in their happy misery?

I acknowledged that some will be unreachable. Underneath it all, what they really want are decent steady jobs & a sense of confidence in the future. We won't get that from the Job Creators or we'd already have it. There's nothing standing in the way of them providing it other than their own greed. The only way that working people will get a bigger piece of the pie is by taking it with taxes, regulations & creating our own jobs in infrastructure, services, healhcare, education & so forth.

America's Rich can easily afford it & raising their taxes for whatever purposes we desire is a very popular idea all across the political spectrum. I expect Clinton to offer up all of that in some rather sweeping proposals should she be elected. Whether the congressional agents of the financial elite choose to stand against it is another matter.

I think that at least some among them recognize that they've gone too far, that they've lost control & can't possibly regain even a part of that w/o making economic concessions. If the mindless raving & trollery of the alt-right hasn't convinced them then they'll be swept off the stage in a feeding frenzy of eating their own.

 

[agent00f]

The Middle East proves that smallarms have a role to play.

You're thinking full scale war between nations and their toys but that's not entirely how it'd play out. Infrastructure would be the primary target. Rendering a lot of what we do ineffective and impossible to deploy. If there are any military forces involved in a revolt... sending missiles up into space to destroy Satellites would be a top priority. "Victory" demands removing the "eyes in the sky". Don't even need to know your target... a debris cloud up in space would eventually take them out.

See, a real war in the US would be scorched earth with all possible tactics.

Scorched earth rather implies not limiting yourself to relatively ineffective tactical firearms. None of these couch commandos are ready for anything of the sort. Just take a look at how well the few times they tried to defy the gubmint inevitably turn out.

 

[agent00f]

I'll grant that some on the right may be unreachable. OTOH, what you offer merely deepens the divide & offers no answers. If they're looking down their noses at other people then you're obviously doing the same.

We need to find real ways to ease these insecurities & ways to alter headsets to accept them. We need to build confidence & optimism so that everybody can better reject fear & those who spread it.

People for the most part don't change much. The people on the other side of civil rights are mostly still there.

That's why our hope largely rests on the next generations, through education, obliterating public displays of wanton ignorance, etc. That's why these people absolute despise "leftist" schools or any sort of PC restraint. They know they're losing their grip on the future.

 

[Jhhnn]

People for the most part don't change much. The people on the other side of civil rights are mostly still there.

That's why our hope largely rests on the next generations, through education, obliterating public displays of wanton ignorance, etc. That's why these people absolute despise "leftist" schools or any sort of PC restraint. They know they're losing their grip on the future.

I wasn't talking about racism at all. It's secondary to the economic malaise & insecurity that Trump supporters feel. Racism is mostly scapegoating & has been for at least 50 years. It loses virulence when people feel secure.

 

[MongGrel]

Whats the one that looks like a luger?

Browning .22 Challenger.

 

[agent00f]

I wasn't talking about racism at all. It's secondary to the economic malaise & insecurity that Trump supporters feel. Racism is mostly scapegoating & has been for at least 50 years. It loses virulence when people feel secure.

The two most prominent surveyed concerns of trump fans are ethnic resentment, and economic insecurity as distant second. As it turns out, the most complete assessment (gallop iirc) of that crowd found they weren't exactly economically insecure with average income of >70k. So by the process of elimination, it seems clear that economics is the dog-whistle scapegoat for racial animosity. After all, even they know that busting out the klan wardrobe is socially inappropriate these days, and "concern for the economy" certainly sounds better.

And in fairness, they do have some reason for concern. They're often lower skill/edu workers grandfathered into their wages due to labor shortages of the past, pretty easily replaceable by the new global workforce willing to do more for less. So you're right that targeting lower class mexicans is merely expedient, but they have a decent idea of what their self-interests are and what the competition looks like.

 

[cbrunny]

For the most part, the left would have the general support of much of the rest of the world. That'd go a long way.

 

[Perknose]

Who would have thought a troll post would actually become a real possibility?

Only a troll like you.

You were a shallow, idiot troll in 2011 and, five years later, you still haven't grown up. You may be upright and walking now, feeding yourself without assistance, and even finally out of diapers, but you remain a baby, a squalling intellectual infant.

You need a nap.

 

[bshole]

right wingers have guns and are more inclined to fight.

left wingers are more prone to diplomatic relations and less war.

That is much less true today than it once was and it truly saddens me.

 

[Jaskalas]

That is much less true today than it once was and it truly saddens me.

I wonder how that change came to be...
Perhaps it begins with Reagan and then a decade later Democrats losing their 40 year hold over Congress.
Then partisanship snowballs from there..?

 

[bshole]

I wonder how that change came to be...
Perhaps it begins with Reagan and then a decade later Democrats losing their 40 year hold over Congress.
Then partisanship snowballs from there..?

Dunno.... but I remember the days when there was a clear and distinct difference in foreign policy between Democrats and Republicans. They appear functionally identical now. On foreign policy, you and I agree on a lot and I think we both disagree with the Republicans and Democrats regarding Syria.

 

[Darwin333]

I think all conventional wisdom should agree with this, but we seem to have almost a half countryful of people who're ready to burn the house down because they don't like how the utility bills are split. The emotional machismo on display like so is historically how many wars started:

Bah, cut the power for a week tops and even the "supporters" will turn against any of the rebels. Sure there is a lot of rabble from all kinds of people but when it comes down to brass tacks they won't trade their lifestyles to actually go through with anything remotely close to a rebellion or war. We don't have the stomach to wage a real war in a country that 90% of Americans can't find on a map and don't give a shit about. Yet you think that there are enough people that are willing to have any sort of a war in their own backyards?

It would take a hell of a lot more then the "wrong" person getting elected for any significant portion of the country to rise up. Something on the level of true hunger and no power. Hell we just had the "great recession" were a significant portion of the population lost a ton of money, their homes, investments, retirement accounts, jobs, etc while the banksters that actually caused the problem got richer. That didn't cause mass rebellion and this election sure won't.

 

[agent00f]

Bah, cut the power for a week tops and even the "supporters" will turn against any of the rebels. Sure there is a lot of rabble from all kinds of people but when it comes down to brass tacks they won't trade their lifestyles to actually go through with anything remotely close to a rebellion or war. We don't have the stomach to wage a real war in a country that 90% of Americans can't find on a map and don't give a shit about. Yet you think that there are enough people that are willing to have any sort of a war in their own backyards?

It would take a hell of a lot more then the "wrong" person getting elected for any significant portion of the country to rise up. Something on the level of true hunger and no power. Hell we just had the "great recession" were a significant portion of the population lost a ton of money, their homes, investments, retirement accounts, jobs, etc while the banksters that actually caused the problem got richer. That didn't cause mass rebellion and this election sure won't.

I've also pointed this out in the past about the "watering tree of liberty" folks. Clearly they've never read about the sort of people (with nothing to lose) who actually participate in revolutions against overwhelming power, and believe this is going to be another war of independence against a relative equal using muskets.

 

[norseamd]

Dunno.... but I remember the days when there was a clear and distinct difference in foreign policy between Democrats and Republicans. They appear functionally identical now. On foreign policy, you and I agree on a lot and I think we both disagree with the Republicans and Democrats regarding Syria.

You seem like a closet Jacksonian at heart.

 

[Triloby]

Bah, cut the power for a week tops and even the "supporters" will turn against any of the rebels. Sure there is a lot of rabble from all kinds of people but when it comes down to brass tacks they won't trade their lifestyles to actually go through with anything remotely close to a rebellion or war. We don't have the stomach to wage a real war in a country that 90% of Americans can't find on a map and don't give a shit about. Yet you think that there are enough people that are willing to have any sort of a war in their own backyards?

It would take a hell of a lot more then the "wrong" person getting elected for any significant portion of the country to rise up. Something on the level of true hunger and no power. Hell we just had the "great recession" were a significant portion of the population lost a ton of money, their homes, investments, retirement accounts, jobs, etc while the banksters that actually caused the problem got richer. That didn't cause mass rebellion and this election sure won't.

The funniest thing is that even in the most hypothetical and extreme of scenarios, the possibility of an armed insurrection or revolution is still very low. If Trump becomes President and he gets assassinated, the police, military, FBI, CIA, etc. will immediately put down any rebellion that could brew from that hypothetical assassination, and Pence would immediately take over as the new President in that scenario. The same thing would happen if Hillary became President and she gets assassinated quickly; Kaine would then become the President in that manner.

No matter how much either candidate sucks, no alternate scenario that some crazies can think of will ever turn out the way they want it to happen.

 

[norseamd]

I just realized the perfect song for bshole, that special snowflake sentimental Jacksonian, who cant understand why left is so stoopid, why cant left be more like bshole, there are obviously "leftist leaders" who are smarter than all these American warmongering left. Why cant they be more like Corbyn and Murray and the Stop the War Coalition who recognize Western warmongering and the true victims like Putin and Assad.

 

[agent00f]

The funniest thing is that even in the most hypothetical and extreme of scenarios, the possibility of an armed insurrection or revolution is still very low. If Trump becomes President and he gets assassinated, the police, military, FBI, CIA, etc. will immediately put down any rebellion that could brew from that hypothetical assassination, and Pence would immediately take over as the new President in that scenario. The same thing would happen if Hillary became President and she gets assassinated quickly; Kaine would then become the President in that manner.

No matter how much either candidate sucks, no alternate scenario that some crazies can think of will ever turn out the way they want it to happen.

In all fairness a pestering insurgency can conceivably be mounted in a country with so many guns, but the sort always mouthing off about gubmint this and that between reruns of the apprentice and honey boo boo aren't exactly the sort to do it.