Poll: Majority In U.S. Favors Healthcare Reform By Wide Margin

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: BigJelly
I'm pissed off because I'm not a dumbass and realize that my company along with 99.9999% of companies would drop our coverage and force us to suffer in the diaster that UHC will be.

WAKE THE FVCK UP PEOPLE, YOUR EMPLOYERS WILL DROP YOU THE SECOND THAT UHC PASSES.

Wow. You are clinically insane. You should stop reciting your boogeyman theories.

I can't wait until this bill passes, so all these lunatic right-wing conspiracy theories can be thoroughly debunked.

 

[Extelleron]

For the majority of people it would seem that UHC would shift the cost of healthcare from employers (where it as included as compensation to the workers) to the workers themselves who will pay far higher taxes to cover not only their own healthcare but the healthcare of others who never had employer-based care to begin with. Meanwhile the chances that businesses would raise salaries to make up for the difference seems unlikely. I don't know much about how Obama's plan fares but any kind of UHC where you cover everyone under a government plan will almost surely raise taxes on anyone who works for a living, and for many people government-provided care will be more expensive and likely inferior to the policies that their employers currently provide for little to no cost to the employee.

I think most people can agree that healthcare reform is necessary. Americans spend too much on healthcare for what they get. I don't think there is widespread agreement that the government should take over and raise taxes to insane levels by covering everyone. There are a lot of other ways costs can be cut. For example take steps to eliminate silly malpractice lawsuits that force doctors to spend insane amounts of money on insurance. But of course lawyers don't want that and Obama needs their support, so that will never happen. Just cutting malpractice suits down (most are not necessary and the payout is way too much) would save countless billions. Just look at OB/GYNs, you are talking about $100,000 a year in insurance these days. For one practice.

 

[BigJelly]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: BigJelly
I'm pissed off because I'm not a dumbass and realize that my company along with 99.9999% of companies would drop our coverage and force us to suffer in the diaster that UHC will be.

WAKE THE FVCK UP PEOPLE, YOUR EMPLOYERS WILL DROP YOU THE SECOND THAT UHC PASSES.

Wow. You are clinically insane. You should stop reciting your boogeyman theories.

I can't wait until this bill passes, so all these lunatic right-wing conspiracy theories can be thoroughly debunked.

Looks like you completely ignored my logical conclusions and the facts that most people will lose their company's health plan the second that UHC passes.

I'm calling you out to disprove my reasoning, so here it is again:

Okay lets destroy your arguments.
1. The majority wants reform, and they want a public option.
The public wants a working option. As I have stated and many others have stated if you think that government can provide a better and less costly option you are either a moron or a big moron. Look at what government runs: amtrak--losing money, post office--losing money, DVM--long ass lines, SS--ponzi scheme that will fail, CA--the states going bankrupt, etc...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
--Albert Einstein

2. They aren't taking over anything. Private health insurance will still exist. We already have socialized medicine in the US; it's called the VA and Medicare.
Answer these questions:
Does your employer pay more than $750 per year on your health costs?
If yes, then do you think your employer will try to save money by stopping your healthcare and pay the $750 fine and save thousands by not covering you?
If yes, then you are stuck with government health care.
If you answered no to either of those questions you either don't have a job with a health plan and/or are a moron--either way you will be stuck with UHC.
So this will be the death of employee healthcare and everyone will get dumped into the shithole that will be UHC.

3. This argument is moot; people who can't afford private insurance (or adequate private insurance) will always be more satisfied with the public option vs. no option.
As I stated in point 2, almost all companies will condem their workers to UHC. All the people that get their company healthcare dropped and stuck with UHC will sure as hell not be satisfied--that I can guaranty.

 

[jpeyton]

Are you going to move out of the US when this health care reform bill passes in the fall?

The AMA supports the House health care bill. BigJelly doesn't. Who should I trust?

 

[BigJelly]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Are you going to move out of the US when this health care reform bill passes in the fall?

are you going to keep dodging my reasoning:

So I'm calling you out AGAIN to disprove my reasoning, so here it is again:

Okay lets destroy your arguments.
1. The majority wants reform, and they want a public option.
The public wants a working option. As I have stated and many others have stated if you think that government can provide a better and less costly option you are either a moron or a big moron. Look at what government runs: amtrak--losing money, post office--losing money, DVM--long ass lines, SS--ponzi scheme that will fail, CA--the states going bankrupt, etc...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
--Albert Einstein

2. They aren't taking over anything. Private health insurance will still exist. We already have socialized medicine in the US; it's called the VA and Medicare.
Answer these questions:
Does your employer pay more than $750 per year on your health costs?
If yes, then do you think your employer will try to save money by stopping your healthcare and pay the $750 fine and save thousands by not covering you?
If yes, then you are stuck with government health care.
If you answered no to either of those questions you either don't have a job with a health plan and/or are a moron--either way you will be stuck with UHC.
So this will be the death of employee healthcare and everyone will get dumped into the shithole that will be UHC.

3. This argument is moot; people who can't afford private insurance (or adequate private insurance) will always be more satisfied with the public option vs. no option.
As I stated in point 2, almost all companies will condem their workers to UHC. All the people that get their company healthcare dropped and stuck with UHC will sure as hell not be satisfied--that I can guaranty.

Mind you I have not even gotten into the cost of UHC I'm just trying to warn people with jobs that provide healthcare that they will kiss it goodbye.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Are you going to move out of the US when this health care reform bill passes in the fall?

Where would anyone move to? Europe is far worse than the U.S. and Canada is pretty much the same. Maybe the healthcare reform bill will work out for many Americans and they will be happy. I don't know. But regardless the amount of government expansion that has been going on in the last decade or so (not solely blaming Obama, Bush increased the budget way too much, got us into useless wars, and killed rights with the Patriot Act) is a scary thing. And government control of the healthcare of a lot more Americans is not a step in the right direction. Look at Europe and how few rights people in countries like England have. The U.S. is headed in that direction, we're just a few decades behind. The Constitution has already been abandoned with the Patriot Act and Gitmo, both things that Obama has not done much about.

 

[jpeyton]

Britain's NHS is brilliant. I wish we had that kind of universal health care here.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Britain's NHS is brilliant. I wish we had that kind of universal health care here.

Britain is not a model by which you are going to convince anyone to adopt more government control of anything. Huge income taxes plus incredibly high VAT, cameras everywhere, tight gun control, the list goes on. That's not what America is about. America is about freedom and you don't have that in Europe. Freedom to make the right choices and live well and freedom to make the wrong choices and run into problems. You need a stable government to give limited support in times of trouble but some want the government to do everything for them. If they want that then they should be free to move. But America was not founded for those people.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Britain's NHS is brilliant. I wish we had that kind of universal health care here.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Britain's NHS is brilliant. I wish we had that kind of universal health care here.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I have the same kind of jubilant reaction to the fact that Obama's health care reform is passing this fall regardless of what the Republicans say.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Britain's NHS is brilliant. I wish we had that kind of universal health care here.

Britain is not a model by which you are going to convince anyone to adopt more government control of anything. Huge income taxes plus incredibly high VAT, cameras everywhere, tight gun control, the list goes on. That's not what America is about. America is about freedom and you don't have that in Europe. Freedom to make the right choices and live well and freedom to make the wrong choices and run into problems. You need a stable government to give limited support in times of trouble but some want the government to do everything for them. If they want that then they should be free to move. But America was not founded for those people.

You don't have to fashion you're whole Society after them if all you want is their HealthCare.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Britain's NHS is brilliant. I wish we had that kind of universal health care here.

Britain is not a model by which you are going to convince anyone to adopt more government control of anything. Huge income taxes plus incredibly high VAT, cameras everywhere, tight gun control, the list goes on. That's not what America is about. America is about freedom and you don't have that in Europe. Freedom to make the right choices and live well and freedom to make the wrong choices and run into problems. You need a stable government to give limited support in times of trouble but some want the government to do everything for them. If they want that then they should be free to move. But America was not founded for those people.

You don't have to fashion you're whole Society after them if all you want is their HealthCare.

However, isn't the healthcare model a reflection of the society? I think if you move to a UHC model, then that is a fundamental change in American society. It would involve more acceptance of government than ever before. And by bringing in UHC, you will be forced to bring along higher taxes, whether through a huge increase in income taxes or a national sales tax, and it will pave the way for more "reform" in other areas of life. I'm not going to be a conspiracy theorist but let's face it, life is better for the most part when government is not involved. There is too much corruption and there are far too many special interest groups. Like I said earlier, Obama and Congress could bring forth legislation that would work to cut through malpractice costs, greatly reducing the cost of care. But he can't/won't do that because he has to give interest groups what they want - not what is best for the people.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Britain's NHS is brilliant. I wish we had that kind of universal health care here.

Britain is not a model by which you are going to convince anyone to adopt more government control of anything. Huge income taxes plus incredibly high VAT, cameras everywhere, tight gun control, the list goes on. That's not what America is about. America is about freedom and you don't have that in Europe. Freedom to make the right choices and live well and freedom to make the wrong choices and run into problems. You need a stable government to give limited support in times of trouble but some want the government to do everything for them. If they want that then they should be free to move. But America was not founded for those people.

You don't have to fashion you're whole Society after them if all you want is their HealthCare.

However, isn't the healthcare model a reflection of the society? I think if you move to a UHC model, then that is a fundamental change in American society. It would involve more acceptance of government than ever before. And by bringing in UHC, you will be forced to bring along higher taxes, whether through a huge increase in income taxes or a national sales tax, and it will pave the way for more "reform" in other areas of life. I'm not going to be a conspiracy theorist but let's face it, life is better for the most part when government is not involved. There is too much corruption and there are far too many special interest groups. Like I said earlier, Obama and Congress could bring forth legislation that would work to cut through malpractice costs, greatly reducing the cost of care. But he can't/won't do that because he has to give interest groups what they want - not what is best for the people.

If you consider our insurance now a tax, we will actually be paying a much lower tax. I pay about 10-17k in health costs a year on a 50-70k salary... that is a pretty huge tax. Especially considering we pay DOUBLE what ever other first world country pays.

Our society only cares about one person-one's self. It would be a radical change to the idea of actually being proud that not only will our 50 million uninsured be covered, but the 10s of millions who are excluded via "pre-existing conditions", would now be covered.


"life is better for the most part when government is not involved."

Ever hear of emancipation, eliminating "separate but equal" facilities, oil and steel barons without regulation, financial markets without regulation?

Health insurances make a fortune by denying care and denying insurance. Government intervention is needed so that more people won't be denied cancer saving treatment because they didn't mention that they once had acne.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Extelleron
life is better for the most part when government is not involved.

I'll try to remember that as I go through my daily routine...

...drinking water from my government run watershed/utility

...living in my government zoned neighborhood

...driving down government paved roads and highways

...riding on government run public transportation

...attending government run primary and secondary schools

...protected by government run police and fire departments

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Extelleron
life is better for the most part when government is not involved.

I'll try to remember that as I go through my daily routine...

...drinking water from my government run watershed/utility

...living in my government zoned neighborhood

...driving down government paved roads and highways

...riding on government run public transportation

...attending government run primary and secondary schools

...protected by government run police and fire departments

"for the most part" being the key wording there....

It's absolutely necessary for a people to get together and form a basic government that will provide services that private enterprises will not provide, because it makes little sense financially for them. Things like roads, schools, police/fire..... and a lot of other services. But that's completely different than the government stepping in like it has over the last decade or so. When the government becomes an institution that has power over the people versus the people having control over the government, you have stepped over the boundary. Things like the Patriot Act, UHC, Gitmo...... these are things that don't have a place in a free society. UHC you could argue for. It's such a complex issure that it is hard to summarize into posts on a forum. It's great in theory but in practice it isn't going to work out. You will have taxes through the roof. And the real problem for me is that government is moving in the wrong direction. It's getting bigger and UHC is just a part of that. If you could have an efficiently run healthcare system where inefficiences are cut out (like malpractice, I talk about it all the time but its absolutely something that is killing the system), private insurance available for those who want/can afford it, and UHC is where government expansion stops, then I would not be so opposed to it. But I don't think the expansion will stop there.

I don't fear UHC, I fear what the government will look like 10-20 years down the road and UHC is just a small part of that. And nobody in this thread has talked about the continued deficits and the mounting debt. Everybody wants UHC..... does everyone want to pay the cost? How can we afford UHC when we are already $10 trillion in debt and counting, and when in 10-20 years we will face the SS/Medicare crisis? How will this happen without massive tax increases to the middle class or crippling tax increases on businesses?

 

[sportage]

WAKE THE FVCK UP PEOPLE, YOUR EMPLOYERS WILL DROP YOU THE SECOND THAT UHC PASSES.

News Bulletin...
Your employer is about to drop you because THEY will no longer afford to offer healthcare.
With "healthcare for profit", and greed, how long do you truly think any healthcare will be affordable? Available?
A lot of money is made off the sick. Billions!!!

Funny how people fight reform, UHC until someone close to them gets seriously
ill. Then the reality of "healthcare for profit" hits home.
Foolish people. Easily fooled by well scripted tv ad's.
Convinced to vote against their own best interest.
All while CIGNA collects billions in profits, yearly.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Talk about a mandate; this poll demolishes the idea that the public will oppose health care reform legislation from Obama and the Democrats. Quite the opposite, it paints a picture of an electorate that is eager for reform to happen this year. With huge majorities in Congress, health care reform will be a done deal by the fall, regardless of how much the right-wing whines about it.

Seriously, are you just regurgitating propaganda on this forum? Really.

56% of those polled like it. How much you wanna bet that 99% of that 56% do not fully understand the plan. Hell, I'll bet that 99% of everyone in the U.S. does not fully understand the plan. So congratulations on driving the propaganda machine.

I bet you do not even fully understand the plan. I know I don't. Anyone here? And if anyone says yes, you know you are so full of shit.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Talk about a mandate; this poll demolishes the idea that the public will oppose health care reform legislation from Obama and the Democrats. Quite the opposite, it paints a picture of an electorate that is eager for reform to happen this year. With huge majorities in Congress, health care reform will be a done deal by the fall, regardless of how much the right-wing whines about it.

Seriously, are you just regurgitating propaganda on this forum? Really.

56% of those polled like it. How much you wanna bet that 99% of that 56% do not fully understand the plan. Hell, I'll bet that 99% of everyone in the U.S. does not fully understand the plan. So congratulations on driving the propaganda machine.

I bet you do not even fully understand the plan. I know I don't. Anyone here? And if anyone says yes, you know you are so full of shit.

Nobody fully understands the plan, the politicians that are supposed to be voting on this legislation don't understand the plan. These huge bills are 1,000+ pages long and nobody gets the opportunity to read the entire thing. Especially when legislation like this is rammed through congress without enough debate.....

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
I know I don't.

If you don't understand it, why are you against it?

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubby1223
I know I don't.

If you don't understand it, why are you against it?

Or - since no one understands it why be for it? What's the rush? What I've read is mostly gibberish. You explain it in plain language to us!

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: woodie1

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubby1223
I know I don't.

If you don't understand it, why are you against it?

Or - since no one understands it why be for it? What's the rush? What I've read is mostly gibberish. You explain it in plain language to us!

Plain English:

Money is involved.
Hospitals and Doctors are involved.
Some people have ailments.
Working together we treat those ailments.
Everybody wins.

(I couldn't resist I just wanted to write that so badly)

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero
Gallup and others like NY Times are notorious for using a lot more Dems in their polls. hahahahaa....your too funny



Rasmussen was found most reliable after study of 17 polling outfits and they have another story:

"Forty-nine percent (49%) of U.S. voters now at least somewhat oppose the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats, while 46% at least somewhat favor it, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey.

Just two weeks ago, 50% were for the reform plan, and 45% were opposed.

The ?nays? also continue to have the edge in terms of intensity. While 22% strongly favor the Democrats? health care reform plan, 38% strongly oppose it, up four points from the previous survey.
Among those voters who have health insurance, opposition is even higher: 43% favor the plan, but 52% oppose it. Those who strongly oppose it outnumber those who strongly favor it by two-to-one ? 40% to 20%...

Sixty percent (60%) of Republicans strongly oppose the plan, up three points from two weeks ago, but only 35% of Democrats strongly favor it, down eight points from the earlier survey. Even more noticeably, among voters not affiliated with either party, those strongly opposed to the health care reform plan have risen 12 points over the past two weeks from 39% to 51%."

The more people learn about the facts the more they dont like Obama's plan


http://www.rasmussenreports.co...eform_plan_46_favor_it

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubby1223
I know I don't.

If you don't understand it, why are you against it?

http://docs.house.gov/gopleade...ocrats-Health-Plan.pdf

Any more stupid questions coming from your keyboard?

And if you think that flow-chart is wrong, please explain why it is wrong in your own words, not copy & pasted from a blogger.



If the government can figure out a good plan and be able to explain it without the spin to the public, then sure I'll support it. But when the Secretary of Health and Human Services the other day is asked how the plan will help the middle class response "We are changing healthcare from a sickness program to a wellness program." Oh yeah, that inspires confidence. Both Republicans and Democrats screwed us on not recognizing the collapse in the economy, how can I trust them to fix healthcare within a rapid-pace time-frame?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Craig, as I've said I haven't had time to respond to your thoughts in depth but note how with some here we have the neocon thinking in action. Through magical thinking the government is going to take care of us and keep us safe. Those of us who didn't want the patriot act or gitmo or Iraq are now Republicans because we haven't surrendered our mistrust of politicians and their minions wanting to take over our health care. It isn't that we love Cigna but we do not like the government inserting itself in such a way that it means that the public option is the only one. No mistake, it will be done in a way that will make it so. When that happens we'll take what we're given. We'll wind up with people who will be shocked when they won't get everything they want or will have to pay the cost of doing so. The neocon equivalents will then be doing just what they are now, ducking the arguments, justifying anything that happens because the government will protect us. They know better just like they did with Saddam and they just can't wait.

Remember, every man wants good. It's when they want to force it on others in their own ignorance that it becomes evil.

Note that the expection from the sheep is safety over their liberty. By accepting what will be the complete control by the bureaucracy we'll not be denied treatments we think we should have, yet there has not been a single word from government that this is true. People who pretend credibility on this issue also tried to convince us that Palins child was not her own. We're supposed to believe they are right this time? Or how about those who hate the last administration so much that they are apparently delighted to use the reprensible logic to get even. Those nasty Reps are going to get theirs. We haven't any more than conjecture but prove we're lying just like it was required of Bush. Let's have vengence and the country be damned.

That's a major reason I distrust this whole thing. Were told how wonderful government is and I look and see that the reality is far different when I deal with it. To be sure private insurance is a mess but government is a panacea? Not in todays real world except for those who have no credibility if that's measured by actually having to deal with that reality on a daily basis. In short you have a flock of sheep that can only turn Left while the last group can only turn Right.

They haven't shown a thing other than how well they bleet. That leaves you and I and others who care about having a less than dysfunctuonal system stymied. We might disagree about the means but there cannot be serious discussion when we're told we may not have one that matters. Its Iraq all over again.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubby1223
I know I don't.

If you don't understand it, why are you against it?

http://docs.house.gov/gopleade...ocrats-Health-Plan.pdf

Any more stupid questions coming from your keyboard?

And if you think that flow-chart is wrong, please explain why it is wrong in your own words, not copy & pasted from a blogger.

The GOP is certainly an objective third party on a pdf they call the "House-DEMOCRATS-Health-Plan".

Glad we found that out.