Ali vs Frazier was after Ali's prime... when he had been out of boxing for four years.
He was 29 and didn't have 4 years of getting beat up. Not necessarily out of his prime considering that.
Ali.
Pretty sure George Foreman in his prime would have beaten Tyson too.
He fought much differently after his return to boxing. Before he was able to constantly evade and maintain an offensive while doing so for an entire match. After, he never had the stamina to maintain that an entire match and had to manage his energy.
You guys complain about people bringing up Tyson out of his prime... and then use Ali's non-prime years as examples...
With the exception of the Sonny Liston upset, what big name fighter did Ali face before exile? And, quite a few people are talking about things like the rope-a-dope, something Ali didn't use until the the Joe Fraizer fight, which rocked Ali, who wasn't used to taking that kind of punishment. With that knowledge, if Ali could successfully avoid Tyson the entire fight, he would not be moved from form. However, if Tyson got in some hits, Ali wasn't, in this prime, equipped to really handle that. He eventually developed that kind of toughness, but his early days it just didn't exist.
Tyson peaked and hit troubled water before he could have a long and great career like Ali. Ali had some trouble, but recovered and was mentally tough enough to overcome the distractions around him. Tyson, on the other hand, let his life completely fall apart and if it wasn't for raw athletic talent, would have been finished sooner than he was.
I don't see any evidence of Ali lacking toughness in his prime, except that he was so fast and reflexes so honed that he didn't need it. Although in his prime he could avoid Tyson the entire fight, he wouldn't need to. He would hold even with him the first few rounds at worst and then as Tyson tired he would pick him completely apart.
The Frazier fight proved Ali, even if out of boxing, wasn't prepared to really be hit. Fraizer stunned him with his blows, something Ali wasn't used to. And, it wasn't as bad as it should have been because Fraizer was worried about Ali playing opossum, something Tyson wouldn't fear, and would continue a relentless assault.
Tyson, using the peek-a-boo style he did early on, quick jabs, and body shots (something he abandoned for the most part shortly before the Douglas fight) is there Tyson really shined. He had genuine boxing ability beyond thundering knockout power, that the later started to rely heavily on. He was an amazing boxer, not some thug trying to brawl with big punches. Ali would have trouble out boxing him, especially if Tyson could get a decent hit or two in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woTLysKIQVMTyson, using the peek-a-boo style he did early on, quick jabs, and body shots (something he abandoned for the most part shortly before the Douglas fight) is there Tyson really shined. He had genuine boxing ability beyond thundering knockout power, that the later started to rely heavily on. He was an amazing boxer, not some thug trying to brawl with big punches. Ali would have trouble out boxing him, especially if Tyson could get a decent hit or two in.
In their prime, Tyson. For the time they lived in their prime, no answer.
Another dumb question. A 300 hitter today would have been a 500 hitter in 1920. And a 300 hitter from 1920 would be a 100 hitter today. The competition is better today.
So guess what, Tyson had tougher competition than ALi to get to the top. Not to mention steroids.
Are you seriously comparing the speed of Foreman to Tyson??
Goodman stated that Tyson said Foreman was much better than people thought, and was a dangerous fight for any of the top heavyweights. Goodman proceeded to explain how Tyson was calling Foreman a big con man, and explained that the grandpop act was just a front. He said Tyson saw Foreman as trying to set up the boxing world into thinking he was a pushover, knowing that he really wasn't. Tyson said Foreman was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Goodman continued to say that after seeing Tyson's response to King trying to push him into a fight with Foreman, he had no doubt that Tyson had fear of Foreman. He also said that from that point on, he felt that if Foreman and Tyson ever fought, Foreman would knock Tyson out!
Throughout the lunch Goodman, Duva, Benton, and myself shared stories and thoughts on the fight game. Out of the blue Goodman said, "Oh I remember why else Tyson wanted no parts of Foreman. He said that King had found out from Steve Lott that Tyson and Cus D'Amato used to watch the Frazier-Foreman fight over and over." He continued saying that Tyson loved that fight because he was awed by Foreman's power and Frazier's toughness and how he kept getting up after every knockdown. He also said that Lott told King that Cus sat alongside Tyson saying, "It's suicide against Foreman if you're short and fight a swarming attacking style like Marciano or Frazier," never figuring that Foreman could be a possible Tyson opponent down the road. He said that Cus said the only fighters who had a chance against Foreman were, tall rangy fighters who could fight him from a distance while moving away from him, and no way any swarmer could beat Foreman by going to him.
Those are the words of the man who actually had a hand in trying to make the Foreman-Tyson fight, and was in the room when the negotiations broke down. Over the years, I've talked to many people who were involved with Tyson and Foreman and they all verify the story, every one of them. I have also talked to people who were involved with promoting Foreman, including Ron Weathers who promoted a few of Foreman's comeback fights. He told me the same story. The fight didn't happen because of Tyson being fearful of losing to George. Bob Arum also said that he dreamed of making Foreman-Tyson. He said it would be huge money and that Foreman would stop Tyson easier than he did Frazier. This is something Arum often repeated to the press. I have also heard this from George's brother Roy who was his business manager. I co-hosted a boxing show with Roy in Atlantic City for a little less than two months and this was a regular topic when discussing Tyson. Anyone who covered boxing at the time or knew any of the involved parties knew of this. It's not breaking news.
It is absolutely a fact that Mike Tyson was afraid to fight 41-year-old George Foreman--the same Foreman who Evander Holyfield would fight and beat in April of 1991. I have not a doubt that had Foreman and Tyson fought anytime between 1990 and 1997 that Foreman would have knocked Tyson out inside of three rounds. Tyson just has nothing to beat Foreman with; his edge in hand speed would have been a non-factor. He can't beat him by backing away, and he would have gotten his head handed to him if he brought the fight to Foreman. In addition, Foreman was bigger, stronger, tougher and hit harder. Not to mention the fact that Foreman had a better chin and no fear or doubt, unlike Tyson, who was full of fear and self-doubt.
Think about it, Foreman-Tyson was the biggest fight that could have been made in 1990. Foreman was perceived to be an easy fight for Tyson, and it would have been his biggest payday to date. There can only be one reason why Tyson didn't fight Foreman, and that's because he feared losing to him.
I haven't a morsel of a doubt that Tyson just doesn't match up with Foreman, and he knows it. If Tyson of 1990 was afraid of an old Foreman, think how petrified he would of been of a prime Foreman, the one who stared down both Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali in 1973 and 1974.
Tyson would only need to really connect just once to certainly kill Cassius Clay.
Tyson was vastly more powerful, the better athlete.
Ali spewed his annoying, self-aggrandizing hype cliche, "I am the greatest," at a time when not Ali, but rather soccer's Pele was THEEE GREATEST, the most famous sports figure on earth. By far, no comparison. At that time half the people on earth never heard of Cassius Clay (Ali), everybody was enthralled by Pele.
In addition to significantly more power, and higher athleticism, Tyson also has a lot more "heart."
No, I'm contrasting them. I clearly said Tyson was faster than Foreman.
Tyson would only need to really connect just once to certainly kill Cassius Clay.
Tyson was vastly more powerful, the better athlete.
Ali spewed his annoying, self-aggrandizing hype cliche, "I am the greatest," at a time when not Ali, but rather soccer's Pele was THEEE GREATEST, the most famous sports figure on earth. By far, no comparison. At that time half the people on earth never heard of Cassius Clay (Ali), everybody was enthralled by Pele.
In addition to significantly more power, and higher athleticism, Tyson also has a lot more "heart."