Poll on abortion in case of 12 year old girl

[maluckey]

I have follwed many such threads and seen most of the knee-jerk, and just plain old "jerk" rhetoric.

It all boils down to one simple question.....Do you believe that one person is superior to another? If so, then a mother should have the right to chose her life over that of a baby. I think it would also be a step backwards in the history of man.

In most cultures, there are myths of mothers and fathers sacrificing themselves for the lives of their children. There are also stories of husbands and wives doing the same for the love of each other. Imagine if you will, someone who is so selfish as to chose their life over that of their supposed loved one. I shudder to think of such a person. Imagine the final words " It's been lovely, and I'm sorry but you will have to die..."

So now you say that the child of rape has no right to love, or protection. I'd wager that the child would feel differently if given the opportunity. Then you argue that a 12 year-old isn't capable of raising a child.....nonsense!!!. I see it all the time at the Mexican Border. Is it convenient? NO!! Is it the childs fault? NO!

My own mother was impregnated by some oaf at the young age of 13. She is now the regional manager for her company, over three states. Her child of the underage tryst is now a retired Army Colonel, and me?? I'm just fine, even though my mother wasn't yet legal when I was born, even though I am the youngest child.

Abortion for the sake of convenience is murder, pure and simple. I strongly feel that only in the case of a child that is incapable of surviving, or if the mother will die, should abortion be allowed. In thatt case, it's up to the mothers conscience. What if Stephen Hawkins mom performed the a genetic test to see if her son would be a cripple?? What if she aborted??? One human has no more say over an innocence life or death, than a dog may chose to enter the University for graduate schoolp.

 

[glorifiedg790]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790
it doesnt matter when a fetus becomes a person because it does. Murder is punishable through a court of law. I do not think they should be treated the same way. I do however thnk that abortionists or someone should be charged with first degree murder. People are arrested for killing their kids but not for killing their soon to be kids. Try listening to what I say.

well say your parents were killed an hour before you were concieved. Then technically the person who did the deed would be killing 3 people, as the murder of your parents would also wiped you out of certain existance. There in lies the problem with arguing based on future consequences or events - where do you draw the line?

I mean egg and a sperm will become a person if all goes well, just as a fetus would. So legislating murder based on that would hardly work

Sure it would, its the same thing guy. Its just because aboriton is legal that you say it would hardly work. Yes its probably never going to be illegal again. Before it was legalized it WAS considered murder.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: maluckey
I have follwed many such threads and seen most of the knee-jerk, and just plain old "jerk" rhetoric.

It all boils down to one simple question.....Do you believe that one person is superior to another? If so, then a mother should have the right to chose her life over that of a baby. I think it would also be a step backwards in the history of man.

In most cultures, there are myths of mothers and fathers sacrificing themselves for the lives of their children. There are also stories of husbands and wives doing the same for the love of each other. Imagine if you will, someone who is so selfish as to chose their life over that of their supposed loved one. I shudder to think of such a person. Imagine the final words " It's been lovely, and I'm sorry but you will have to die..."

So now you say that the child of rape has no right to love, or protection. I'd wager that the child would feel differently if given the opportunity. Then you argue that a 12 year-old isn't capable of raising a child.....nonsense!!!. I see it all the time at the Mexican Border. Is it convenient? NO!! Is it the childs fault? NO!

My own mother was impregnated by some oaf at the young age of 13. She is now the regional manager for her company, over three states. Her child of the underage tryst is now a retired Army Colonel, and me?? I'm just fine, even though my mother wasn't yet legal when I was born, even though I am the youngest child.

Abortion for the sake of convenience is murder, pure and simple. I strongly feel that only in the case of a child that is incapable of surviving, or if the mother will die, should abortion be allowed. In thatt case, it's up to the mothers conscience. What if Stephen Hawkins mom performed the a genetic test to see if her son would be a cripple?? What if she aborted??? One human has no more say over an innocence life or death, than a dog may chose to enter the University for graduate schoolp.

Yes, some peoples lives are absolutley superior to others. The criminals for example are uses and infringe on our rights by a day to day basis. In turn they lose thier own rights and we are able to execute them. It is justified.

Thats YOUR mother! It's not your problem nor is it any of our buissness to be involved in her decision. It doesn't not even remotely affect any one of us.

We do have a say over who should live and who should die AND who should not be born.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: Skoorb

9 months, then 12 hours cranking out a kid, then forget it. That's all a mother has to do. If you hold to the idea that this is a real life, how is that comparitively minimal discomfort worth terminating an otherwise functional human being?

It would be hard to imagine anything more humiliating and degrading to a woman than being forced to bear a rapist's child.

Yeah it sucks, but either it's killing a person or it's not. Life and sentience are not something on a scale. Either a fetus, at some stage, IS alive or it is NOT alive and it's either sentient or it is not. There's far too much ambiguity here.

If your wife was raped, would you force her to bear his child? You obviously don't consider pregnancy and giving birth a big deal - you refer to the child as "it" and "the thing" in your original post. So here you are putting someone you love through the most humiliating experience of her life and rubbing her face in it for the better part of a year, to have a child you clearly don't give a damn about in anything but a theoretical sense. And the only thing you can say about it is "it sucks"?

you have to look at what skoorb is trying to say. if you truly believe that a fetus is equal to a person, then regardless of the circumstances, abortions are not allowed because how can you just go kill an innocent person?

See that's what they say until it happens to them. As long as it happens to other people, they must suffer through it and "it sucks." I'd like to see what these people say should (God forbid) something like jhu mentioned happen and they have a chance to use something like a day after pill.

 

[maluckey]

Tabb

I heard the same exact words, but from a history book. It frightened me as a child, and it still does. The word is Ubermenschen, and it was Hitlers firm belief that he and his minions should chose who would live or die based on their own moral and supposed genetic/religious code.

Back then, the world was aghast. Now, people have either forgotten, or never learned. No person is superior to another.

As far as the death penalty, it has nothing to do with superiority, or cleansing of the gene pool. The death penalty is not for that. It is used to protect a community from a repeat of heinous acts, and as a way of closure for the survivors and the community as a whole. It is not so much punishment for the subject of the execution, as it is for the survivors.

 

[Riddleman]

wow, that was the most depressing story I have read in a while. Answer to your abortion question is that she should be allowed to choose. I really think that the fetus should be aborted though, because it was concieved in vain and tragedy not love.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Tabb
This is what I think Cyclowizard is trying to say....

We must extend our rights through all humans reguardless of what stage of life they are at. When a mother is pregant she decides to get an abortion she invalidates the rights of her baby. When someone invalidates the rights the others, they in turn lose their own.

Am I getting this?

Approximately. The point is that IF the fetus is a person, it has all the rights that you or I have. Thus, killing it for any reason is identically murder. Thus, the argument is whether or not the fetus is a person.

Originally posted by: Tabb
Thats YOUR mother! It's not your problem nor is it any of our buissness to be involved in her decision. It doesn't not even remotely affect any one of us.

We do have a say over who should live and who should die AND who should not be born.

Think about what you just said - that his mother's choice to NOT abort has no effect on his life. He would be short his oldest brother/sister if she had opted the other way. What if your mother chose to abort you? "Abortion is advocated only by persons who have themselves been born." -- Ronald Reagan

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Tabb

Originally posted by: maluckey
I have follwed many such threads and seen most of the knee-jerk, and just plain old "jerk" rhetoric.

It all boils down to one simple question.....Do you believe that one person is superior to another? If so, then a mother should have the right to chose her life over that of a baby. I think it would also be a step backwards in the history of man.

In most cultures, there are myths of mothers and fathers sacrificing themselves for the lives of their children. There are also stories of husbands and wives doing the same for the love of each other. Imagine if you will, someone who is so selfish as to chose their life over that of their supposed loved one. I shudder to think of such a person. Imagine the final words " It's been lovely, and I'm sorry but you will have to die..."

So now you say that the child of rape has no right to love, or protection. I'd wager that the child would feel differently if given the opportunity. Then you argue that a 12 year-old isn't capable of raising a child.....nonsense!!!. I see it all the time at the Mexican Border. Is it convenient? NO!! Is it the childs fault? NO!

My own mother was impregnated by some oaf at the young age of 13. She is now the regional manager for her company, over three states. Her child of the underage tryst is now a retired Army Colonel, and me?? I'm just fine, even though my mother wasn't yet legal when I was born, even though I am the youngest child.

Abortion for the sake of convenience is murder, pure and simple. I strongly feel that only in the case of a child that is incapable of surviving, or if the mother will die, should abortion be allowed. In thatt case, it's up to the mothers conscience. What if Stephen Hawkins mom performed the a genetic test to see if her son would be a cripple?? What if she aborted??? One human has no more say over an innocence life or death, than a dog may chose to enter the University for graduate schoolp.

Yes, some peoples lives are absolutley superior to others. The criminals for example are uses and infringe on our rights by a day to day basis. In turn they lose thier own rights and we are able to execute them. It is justified.

Thats YOUR mother! It's not your problem nor is it any of our buissness to be involved in her decision. It doesn't not even remotely affect any one of us.

We do have a say over who should live and who should die AND who should not be born.

Ok skinhead you're about 55 years too late and 8500 Miles away. Maybe China would take you?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Tabb

Originally posted by: maluckey
I have follwed many such threads and seen most of the knee-jerk, and just plain old "jerk" rhetoric.

It all boils down to one simple question.....Do you believe that one person is superior to another? If so, then a mother should have the right to chose her life over that of a baby. I think it would also be a step backwards in the history of man.

In most cultures, there are myths of mothers and fathers sacrificing themselves for the lives of their children. There are also stories of husbands and wives doing the same for the love of each other. Imagine if you will, someone who is so selfish as to chose their life over that of their supposed loved one. I shudder to think of such a person. Imagine the final words " It's been lovely, and I'm sorry but you will have to die..."

So now you say that the child of rape has no right to love, or protection. I'd wager that the child would feel differently if given the opportunity. Then you argue that a 12 year-old isn't capable of raising a child.....nonsense!!!. I see it all the time at the Mexican Border. Is it convenient? NO!! Is it the childs fault? NO!

My own mother was impregnated by some oaf at the young age of 13. She is now the regional manager for her company, over three states. Her child of the underage tryst is now a retired Army Colonel, and me?? I'm just fine, even though my mother wasn't yet legal when I was born, even though I am the youngest child.

Abortion for the sake of convenience is murder, pure and simple. I strongly feel that only in the case of a child that is incapable of surviving, or if the mother will die, should abortion be allowed. In thatt case, it's up to the mothers conscience. What if Stephen Hawkins mom performed the a genetic test to see if her son would be a cripple?? What if she aborted??? One human has no more say over an innocence life or death, than a dog may chose to enter the University for graduate schoolp.

Yes, some peoples lives are absolutley superior to others. The criminals for example are uses and infringe on our rights by a day to day basis. In turn they lose thier own rights and we are able to execute them. It is justified.

Thats YOUR mother! It's not your problem nor is it any of our buissness to be involved in her decision. It doesn't not even remotely affect any one of us.

We do have a say over who should live and who should die AND who should not be born.

Ok skinhead you're about 55 years too late and 8500 Miles away. Maybe China would take you?

Hahahaha! We do have a say over who lives and who dies. I have no problem with "elistists" such as Hitler being killed. A man who leads his country to commit genocide has no right to live what so ever.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Tabb
This is what I think Cyclowizard is trying to say....

We must extend our rights through all humans reguardless of what stage of life they are at. When a mother is pregant she decides to get an abortion she invalidates the rights of her baby. When someone invalidates the rights the others, they in turn lose their own.

Am I getting this?

Approximately. The point is that IF the fetus is a person, it has all the rights that you or I have. Thus, killing it for any reason is identically murder. Thus, the argument is whether or not the fetus is a person.

Originally posted by: Tabb
Thats YOUR mother! It's not your problem nor is it any of our buissness to be involved in her decision. It doesn't not even remotely affect any one of us.

We do have a say over who should live and who should die AND who should not be born.

Think about what you just said - that his mother's choice to NOT abort has no effect on his life. He would be short his oldest brother/sister if she had opted the other way. What if your mother chose to abort you? "Abortion is advocated only by persons who have themselves been born." -- Ronald Reagan

I wouldn't have exsisted and it wouldn't have mattered either way.

We do both agree that life does start sometime. Why not leave it up to the mother to make this choice?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Gravity

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Gravity
The girl was sexually abused. Why further victimize her by ending her pregnancy unnaturally? Are you aware of the physical and psychological consequences of abortion? If this girl has a chance to be "normal" then let her have her baby. Clearly she may not be able to raise the child herself or even at all. Therefore, put the baby up for adoption.

The baby in utero is not the problem. The man that raped this little girl is.

So what she wants isn't an issue? You'd FORCE her to have the baby of a rapist?

What you fail to understand is that the abortion will itself continue to victimize this girl. Women that have abortions suffer psychological and emotional consequences for decades following the procedure. They lose the ability to bond with future children, are more likely to commit suicide and suffer from long term depression. Perhaps that's ok for the 12 year old girl? perhaps she doesn't deserve a chance?

You don't know that WILL happen in every case though.

If the girl in this case makes a clear conscious decision that she does not WANT to carry through with the term then she should be able to make the abort decision as well.

Bottom line is it is her choice whether she suffers later or not.

She has already been forced upon earlier like you said, there is NO reason to continue to force anything upon on her such as being forced to carry through with the pregnancy.

She desrves the chance to make her OWN decision not have MALES make the decision for her.

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If the girl in this case makes a clear conscious decision that she does not WANT to carry through with the term then she should be able to make the abort decision as well.

Bottom line is it is her choice whether she suffers later or not.

She has already been forced upon earlier like you said, there is NO reason to continue to force anything upon on her such as being forced to carry through with the pregnancy.

She desrves the chance to make her OWN decision not have MALES make the decision for her.

I don't understand all the emphasis on a decision. Either the fetus is a person and it deserves to live, or it's not and there's nothing wrong with killing it. There's no ambiguity here and no amount of decision making can change that.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If the girl in this case makes a clear conscious decision that she does not WANT to carry through with the term then she should be able to make the abort decision as well.

Bottom line is it is her choice whether she suffers later or not.

She has already been forced upon earlier like you said, there is NO reason to continue to force anything upon on her such as being forced to carry through with the pregnancy.

She desrves the chance to make her OWN decision not have MALES make the decision for her.

I don't understand all the emphasis on a decision. Either the fetus is a person and it deserves to live, or it's not and there's nothing wrong with killing it. There's no ambiguity here and no amount of decision making can change that.

I tell you what... have your 12 year old daughter be raped and impregnated by that rapist. Then, I want you to tell your daughter, "Sorry honey, you HAVE to have that baby. You have no say in the matter. I know what that awful man did, but that's irrelevent."

I'm a father of two little girls and if something like that happened to my girls, my first instinct would be to want to get rid of that man's baby as soon as possible, but I'd tell my daughter that it was her choice.

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

I tell you what... have your 12 year old daughter be raped and impregnated by that rapist. Then, I want you to tell your daughter, "Sorry honey, you HAVE to have that baby. You have no say in the matter. I know what that awful man did, but that's irrelevent."

I'm a father of two little girls and if something like that happened to my girls, my first instinct would be to want to get rid of that man's baby as soon as possible, but I'd tell my daughter that it was her choice.

Since I don't have kids, I couldn't imagine what that would be like. And I can't with any honesty claim to know what I would do in those circumstances. Maybe the temptation to smooth everything over with an abortion would be too great. But you can say that it's the wrong thing to do to compound something hideous like rape with a terminated pregnancy. Yes, it would be so much easier simply to kill the fetus. But sometimes doing the right thing is also doing the hard thing.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

I tell you what... have your 12 year old daughter be raped and impregnated by that rapist. Then, I want you to tell your daughter, "Sorry honey, you HAVE to have that baby. You have no say in the matter. I know what that awful man did, but that's irrelevent."

I'm a father of two little girls and if something like that happened to my girls, my first instinct would be to want to get rid of that man's baby as soon as possible, but I'd tell my daughter that it was her choice.

Since I don't have kids, I couldn't imagine what that would be like. And I can't with any honesty claim to know what I would do in those circumstances. Maybe the temptation to smooth everything over with an abortion would be too great. But you can say that it's the wrong thing to do to compound something hideous like rape with a terminated pregnancy. Yes, it would be so much easier simply to kill the fetus. But sometimes doing the right thing is also doing the hard thing.

No it wouldn't be hard to terminate the pregnancy.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

I tell you what... have your 12 year old daughter be raped and impregnated by that rapist. Then, I want you to tell your daughter, "Sorry honey, you HAVE to have that baby. You have no say in the matter. I know what that awful man did, but that's irrelevent."

I'm a father of two little girls and if something like that happened to my girls, my first instinct would be to want to get rid of that man's baby as soon as possible, but I'd tell my daughter that it was her choice.

Since I don't have kids, I couldn't imagine what that would be like. And I can't with any honesty claim to know what I would do in those circumstances. Maybe the temptation to smooth everything over with an abortion would be too great. But you can say that it's the wrong thing to do to compound something hideous like rape with a terminated pregnancy. Yes, it would be so much easier simply to kill the fetus. But sometimes doing the right thing is also doing the hard thing.

No it wouldn't be hard to terminate the pregnancy.

Personally, it wouldn't be a hard choice for me either. But then again, it isn't MY choice. Dornick seems to think that it is.

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Personally, it wouldn't be a hard choice for me either. But then again, it isn't MY choice. Dornick seems to think that it is.

No, I don't think it is ANYBODY'S choice on whether a fetus should live or die.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Personally, it wouldn't be a hard choice for me either. But then again, it isn't MY choice. Dornick seems to think that it is.

No, I don't think it is ANYBODY'S choice on whether a fetus should live or die.

The Woman carrying it. I'd think she'd want to get the evil bastards seed out of her womb as soon as she could.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Personally, it wouldn't be a hard choice for me either. But then again, it isn't MY choice. Dornick seems to think that it is.

No, I don't think it is ANYBODY'S choice on whether a fetus should live or die.

The Woman carrying it. I'd think she'd want to get the evil bastards seed out of her womb as soon as she could.

If she does, she does. If she doesn't, then I suppose that's fine too. For an extreme case like this, I'm definitely pro-choice.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Tabb
I wouldn't have exsisted and it wouldn't have mattered either way.

We do both agree that life does start sometime. Why not leave it up to the mother to make this choice?

So you would have been perfectly fine with having never been born? Right.

Why don't we leave the choice of when life begins to the mother? Because that is a completely illogical choice. Life begins at some point in all cases. The point at which life begins does not vary from mother to mother or fetus to fetus: it is an absolute, even if we cannot accurately define when it is at this point. As dornick said, "I don't understand all the emphasis on a decision. Either the fetus is a person and it deserves to live, or it's not and there's nothing wrong with killing it. There's no ambiguity here and no amount of decision making can change that." A parent does not get to choose when you, as their child, get your rights.

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I tell you what... have your 12 year old daughter be raped and impregnated by that rapist. Then, I want you to tell your daughter, "Sorry honey, you HAVE to have that baby. You have no say in the matter. I know what that awful man did, but that's irrelevent."

I'm a father of two little girls and if something like that happened to my girls, my first instinct would be to want to get rid of that man's baby as soon as possible, but I'd tell my daughter that it was her choice.

So, you admit that your entire argument is predicated on an appeal to emotion?

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Personally, it wouldn't be a hard choice for me either. But then again, it isn't MY choice. Dornick seems to think that it is.

No, I don't think it is ANYBODY'S choice on whether a fetus should live or die.

The Woman carrying it. I'd think she'd want to get the evil bastards seed out of her womb as soon as she could.

She probably would. Of course, if the fetus is a person, why does that mean she can kill it?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
If the girl in this case makes a clear conscious decision that she does not WANT to carry through with the term then she should be able to make the abort decision as well.

Bottom line is it is her choice whether she suffers later or not.

She has already been forced upon earlier like you said, there is NO reason to continue to force anything upon on her such as being forced to carry through with the pregnancy.

She desrves the chance to make her OWN decision not have MALES make the decision for her.

I don't understand all the emphasis on a decision. Either the fetus is a person and it deserves to live, or it's not and there's nothing wrong with killing it. There's no ambiguity here and no amount of decision making can change that.

I tell you what... have your 12 year old daughter be raped and impregnated by that rapist. Then, I want you to tell your daughter, "Sorry honey, you HAVE to have that baby. You have no say in the matter. I know what that awful man did, but that's irrelevent."

I'm a father of two little girls and if something like that happened to my girls, my first instinct would be to want to get rid of that man's baby as soon as possible, but I'd tell my daughter that it was her choice.

:thumbsup: to Darkhawk28 , that there is signs of intelligence in the human species left.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Personally, it wouldn't be a hard choice for me either. But then again, it isn't MY choice. Dornick seems to think that it is.

No, I don't think it is ANYBODY'S choice on whether a fetus should live or die.

The Woman carrying it. I'd think she'd want to get the evil bastards seed out of her womb as soon as she could.

She probably would. Of course, if the fetus is a person, why does that mean she can kill it?

It's not a person, it's a fetus.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
It's not a person, it's a fetus.

You're not a person, you're a blob of cells.

See how easy it is to postulate something? That doesn't make it right.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
It's not a person, it's a fetus.

You're not a person, you're a blob of cells.

See how easy it is to postulate something? That doesn't make it right.

Not always but in this case it is.