Poll on abortion in case of 12 year old girl

[glorifiedg790]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790
I don't care its a religious site, its a true statistic. what could have been your best friend

living kills even more

thats compared to 6 billion people. not to mention you just supported what I said. Yes living does kill apparently. What you said is so twisted. Yes living people murder. They also murder their children. So basically you are saying why live? its pointless....you should be dead.

more than 90% of fertilized eggs eventually die on their own. we should put a stop to that too

Oh the noesssss

Please SAVE THE CELLS !!!

Thats all you are then....a sack of cells. You became a human being after being in your mother's womb. You just don't want to admit that you WOULD mind being aborted. What's your address? can I come shoot you in the face right now? If you have any logic at all that would be okay to you. Your posts keep avoiding my question. Would you mind or not? You would not have the gift of life. Our society is a society of death. Not of which you are helping be one of life. Yes, hitler was alive and he killed. Abortion certainly does not help our Murder count. "Amen"

 

[Gaard]

If my kid were 12 (and female ), and was raped, and became pregnant, and somone told me that she couldn't get an abortion even though there was high-risk involved, I'd take his freakin bible and stick it up his arse.

She's freakin 12 for Christ sake!

 

[glorifiedg790]

Just because I am pro-life does not mean I am a Bible Hugger.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Gaard
If my kid were 12 (and female ), and was raped, and became pregnant, and somone told me that she couldn't get an abortion even though there was high-risk involved, I'd take his freakin bible and stick it up his arse.

She's freakin 12 for Christ sake!

It's already been discussed in this thread and others that not all pro-lifers are fundamentalist Christians, so why do you insist on that stereotype?!?! :roll:

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
If my kid were 12 (and female ), and was raped, and became pregnant, and somone told me that she couldn't get an abortion even though there was high-risk involved, I'd take his freakin bible and stick it up his arse.

She's freakin 12 for Christ sake!

It's already been discussed in this thread and others that not all pro-lifers are fundamentalist Christians, so why do you insist on that stereotype?!?! :roll:

Sorry. I just can't envision someone, who isn't a fundy, taking such a steadfast and rigid stance as to not care for a little girl like this.

I wonder, there are documented cases of 5,6,7, and 8-year-olds being raped and becoming pregnant. Would all the non-fundy pro-lifers not care for these BABIES as well?

 

[Speedy3D!]

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: Speedy3D!

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Get the thing adopted. Either abortion is right or it is not. This moral relativity is rather silly "OH, i don't agree with it...unless she was raped!" Who give a half sh*t why she's pregnant. Either it's not killing somebody, in which case it's fine, or it is, in which case deal with it and give it away if you don't like it.

Not really. Abortion is a gray area, hence the constant and vigorous debate about it.

how is it a gray area? either you kill your child or let it live. either way the mother has reall messed up her children and deserves to be beaten.

You see absolutely no difference between a little girl who was sold into prostitution and raped, and some woman who wants to use abortion like it is birth control?

hmmm why would you say that? I was saying its not a gray area. Either you kill the child or you dont, what is so confusing about that. What I said is true regardless of rape.

You're missing the point.

A fetus and a child are two separate things according to some, and one in the same according to others. Some would argue that a person is not really a person until it is self-aware, or able to live outside the womb, and others would say it's a person the second it is conceived (some even believe before that - such as those who refuse to sell birth control pills to women, or use contraceptives).

Now, you can't murder something that is not a person. So, one using that line of thinking would conclude that terminating a fetus - which is not a person - is not murder. However, someone who believes that a fetus is a person would consider it murder, and rightly so. Bearing in mind there are no laws about when a fetus is a person, nor has there been any meaningful philosophical debate (just pundits yelling at each other) about it leads one to conclude there is no accepted right or wrong answer.

Because of this, one could easily infer that that may be a ?gray area?, considering there is no right or wrong answer.

?Gray area? is a term used to describe a situation or idea where there exists no black/white or right/wrong answer.

I hope that clears up my terminology for you.

 

[glorifiedg790]

The majority ++++SOME of abortions are done by consenting older teens/adults who do not wish to have a child, so instead of giving it up for adotion they kill it. Yes it is terrible that that happens to 7 and 8 year olds. It is a very difficult decision, but is neglibile compared to the majority of abortions made. So it is a very hard subject.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790
The majority ++++SOME of abortions are done by consenting older teens/adults who do not wish to have a child, so instead of giving it up for adotion they kill it. Yes it is terrible that that happens to 7 and 8 year olds. It is a very difficult decision, but is neglibile compared to the majority of abortions made. So it is a very hard subject.

Yes, it is a very hard subject. One that, imo, is very gray and MUST NOT be looked at in black and white.

I'm not a basher (ok, sometimes I am ), but it must be hell to have such a rigid, b&w stance that the well-being of children isn't even considered.

 

[glorifiedg790]

Originally posted by: Speedy3D!

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: Speedy3D!

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Get the thing adopted. Either abortion is right or it is not. This moral relativity is rather silly "OH, i don't agree with it...unless she was raped!" Who give a half sh*t why she's pregnant. Either it's not killing somebody, in which case it's fine, or it is, in which case deal with it and give it away if you don't like it.

Not really. Abortion is a gray area, hence the constant and vigorous debate about it.

how is it a gray area? either you kill your child or let it live. either way the mother has reall messed up her children and deserves to be beaten.

You see absolutely no difference between a little girl who was sold into prostitution and raped, and some woman who wants to use abortion like it is birth control?

hmmm why would you say that? I was saying its not a gray area. Either you kill the child or you dont, what is so confusing about that. What I said is true regardless of rape.

You're missing the point.

A fetus and a child are two separate things according to some, and one in the same according to others. Some would argue that a person is not really a person until it is self-aware, or able to live outside the womb, and others would say it's a person the second it is conceived (some even believe before that - such as those who refuse to sell birth control pills to women, or use contraceptives).

Now, you can't murder something that is not a person. So, one using that line of thinking would conclude that terminating a fetus - which is not a person - is not murder. However, someone who believes that a fetus is a person would consider it murder, and rightly so. Bearing in mind there are no laws about when a fetus is a person, nor has there been any meaningful philosophical debate (just pundits yelling at each other) about it leads one to conclude there is no accepted right or wrong answer.

Because of this, one could easily infer that that may be a ?gray area?, considering there is no right or wrong answer.

?Gray area? is a term used to describe a situation or idea where there exists no black/white or right/wrong answer.

I hope that clears up my terminology for you.

I think its crystal clear that you wouldn't be alive if you werent conceived, cared for in the womb for 9 months and then born. So the fetus, regardless of the debate ,and scientific proof, WILL become a person. Science proves they are very much alive. The baby feels pain when aborted.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: Speedy3D!

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: Speedy3D!

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Get the thing adopted. Either abortion is right or it is not. This moral relativity is rather silly "OH, i don't agree with it...unless she was raped!" Who give a half sh*t why she's pregnant. Either it's not killing somebody, in which case it's fine, or it is, in which case deal with it and give it away if you don't like it.

Not really. Abortion is a gray area, hence the constant and vigorous debate about it.

how is it a gray area? either you kill your child or let it live. either way the mother has reall messed up her children and deserves to be beaten.

You see absolutely no difference between a little girl who was sold into prostitution and raped, and some woman who wants to use abortion like it is birth control?

hmmm why would you say that? I was saying its not a gray area. Either you kill the child or you dont, what is so confusing about that. What I said is true regardless of rape.

You're missing the point.

A fetus and a child are two separate things according to some, and one in the same according to others. Some would argue that a person is not really a person until it is self-aware, or able to live outside the womb, and others would say it's a person the second it is conceived (some even believe before that - such as those who refuse to sell birth control pills to women, or use contraceptives).

Now, you can't murder something that is not a person. So, one using that line of thinking would conclude that terminating a fetus - which is not a person - is not murder. However, someone who believes that a fetus is a person would consider it murder, and rightly so. Bearing in mind there are no laws about when a fetus is a person, nor has there been any meaningful philosophical debate (just pundits yelling at each other) about it leads one to conclude there is no accepted right or wrong answer.

Because of this, one could easily infer that that may be a ?gray area?, considering there is no right or wrong answer.

?Gray area? is a term used to describe a situation or idea where there exists no black/white or right/wrong answer.

I hope that clears up my terminology for you.

I think its crystal clear that you wouldn't be alive if you werent conceived, cared for in the womb for 9 months and then born. So the fetus, regardless of the debate ,and scientific proof, WILL become a person. Science proves they are very much alive. The baby feels pain when aborted.

It seems to me you're kind of both arguing separate topics. He said it's a gray area, and in terms of consensus it is. 2+2=4 is not a gray area. All but the most psychotic weirdos agree with that. However, abortion has a lot of debate, so abortion as a whole is gray. What is NOT gray is whether aborting is or is not killing somebody. By this I mean that regardless of what we all think, there is a true answer to the question--we just don't all agree what it is, but regardless of what we think, there is an ultimate truth. There was a time when the earth was debated as to being flat or round. This was a gray area, but regardless of what everyone thought there was only one ultimate truth in the matter. Round/Flat was not gray itself, but the topic was!

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Tabb
It's her choice, not mine. She should do whatever she feels is right. In the end God will judge her, not I.

That is a coward's way out of forming any opinion on the subject. By your logic, I should be free to kill you, since man is apparently not fit to judge his fellow man. How ridiculous. :roll:

No it's not. By you killing me we have a massive chain reaction. My employeer would have to find a new employee, my college would have to deal with tons of stuff, my parents would be sad...etc etc etc etc... Not to mention there is obiviously something seriously wrong with the person who killed "ME".

Assuming someday you prove aborition is murder, you can't say her killing this baby is somehow lead to same consequences, nor remotely affect a couple people.

Murder at times, can be justified.

These are my own feelings on aborition. I wouldn't be very happy in my family members or my friends had an aborition, however this issuse doesn't really affect me. I decide if I want to be remain friends with them. It's up to the mother to decide if she believes the baby is truly alive or not.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Gaard
If my kid were 12 (and female ), and was raped, and became pregnant, and somone told me that she couldn't get an abortion even though there was high-risk involved, I'd take his freakin bible and stick it up his arse.

She's freakin 12 for Christ sake!

It's already been discussed in this thread and others that not all pro-lifers are fundamentalist Christians, so why do you insist on that stereotype?!?! :roll:

Sorry. I just can't envision someone, who isn't a fundy, taking such a steadfast and rigid stance as to not care for a little girl like this.

You just insist on stereotyping, don't you? Who said pro-lifers don't care about both the mother and the child? Obviously, the child was victimized, and someone should be punished, but that someone is not the baby.

And you say 'steadfast and rigid' like it was a bad thing. On most moral questions, I prefer steadfast and rigid any day. Would you call those abolitionists who were not satisfied that slavery was legal in only half the U.S. in the 1800's 'steadfast and rigid' too? I bet most people are glad they were so rigid.

 

[glorifiedg790]

Originally posted by: Tabb

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Tabb
It's her choice, not mine. She should do whatever she feels is right. In the end God will judge her, not I.

That is a coward's way out of forming any opinion on the subject. By your logic, I should be free to kill you, since man is apparently not fit to judge his fellow man. How ridiculous. :roll:

No it's not. By you killing me we have a massive chain reaction. My employeer would have to find a new employee, my college would have to deal with tons of stuff, my parents would be sad...etc etc etc etc... Not to mention there is obiviously something seriously wrong with the person who killed "ME".

Assuming someday you prove aborition is murder, you can't say her killing this baby is somehow lead to same consequences, nor remotely affect a couple people.

Murder at times, can be justified.

Yes you are right Murder is justifiable at time. That doesn't make it anymore legal. This is why abortion makes no sense. It SHOULD be illegal. It IS murder because that fetus WILL become a child and later an adult.

 

[Speedy3D!]

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: Speedy3D!

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: glorifiedg790

Originally posted by: Speedy3D!

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Get the thing adopted. Either abortion is right or it is not. This moral relativity is rather silly "OH, i don't agree with it...unless she was raped!" Who give a half sh*t why she's pregnant. Either it's not killing somebody, in which case it's fine, or it is, in which case deal with it and give it away if you don't like it.

Not really. Abortion is a gray area, hence the constant and vigorous debate about it.

how is it a gray area? either you kill your child or let it live. either way the mother has reall messed up her children and deserves to be beaten.

You see absolutely no difference between a little girl who was sold into prostitution and raped, and some woman who wants to use abortion like it is birth control?

hmmm why would you say that? I was saying its not a gray area. Either you kill the child or you dont, what is so confusing about that. What I said is true regardless of rape.

You're missing the point.

A fetus and a child are two separate things according to some, and one in the same according to others. Some would argue that a person is not really a person until it is self-aware, or able to live outside the womb, and others would say it's a person the second it is conceived (some even believe before that - such as those who refuse to sell birth control pills to women, or use contraceptives).

Now, you can't murder something that is not a person. So, one using that line of thinking would conclude that terminating a fetus - which is not a person - is not murder. However, someone who believes that a fetus is a person would consider it murder, and rightly so. Bearing in mind there are no laws about when a fetus is a person, nor has there been any meaningful philosophical debate (just pundits yelling at each other) about it leads one to conclude there is no accepted right or wrong answer.

Because of this, one could easily infer that that may be a ?gray area?, considering there is no right or wrong answer.

?Gray area? is a term used to describe a situation or idea where there exists no black/white or right/wrong answer.

I hope that clears up my terminology for you.

I think its crystal clear that you wouldn't be alive if you werent conceived, cared for in the womb for 9 months and then born. So the fetus, regardless of the debate ,and scientific proof, WILL become a person. Science proves they are very much alive. The baby feels pain when aborted.

And I don't disagree with you; don't take what I said to mean that I am somehow pro-abortion. All I'm trying to say is that the situation is not as simple as some believe it to be.

There is no debate about whether or not a fetus will become a person; the debate is about when a fetus becomes a person.

Anyway, going back to what you originally said about moral relativity you suggested that there are no allowable special circumstances for abortion. If a woman, or little girl, becomes pregnant - no matter how it happened - she must have the baby, no matter what.

What your saying is analogous to saying that somebody who murders a little girl in cold blood should be punished exactly the same way as somebody who murdered a man who was trying to break into his home. After all, they both committed murder didn't they? Therefore they both should be treated the same way no matter the circumstances.

 

[glorifiedg790]

it doesnt matter when a fetus becomes a person because it does. Murder is punishable through a court of law. I do not think they should be treated the same way. I do however thnk that abortionists or someone should be charged with first degree murder. People are arrested for killing their kids but not for killing their soon to be kids. Try listening to what I say.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Tabb
No it's not. By you killing me we have a massive chain reaction. My employeer would have to find a new employee, my college would have to deal with tons of stuff, my parents would be sad...etc etc etc etc... Not to mention there is obiviously something seriously wrong with the person who killed "ME".

Assuming someday you prove aborition is murder, you can't say her killing this baby is somehow lead to same consequences, nor remotely affect a couple people.

Murder at times, can be justified.

These are my own feelings on aborition. I wouldn't be very happy in my family members or my friends had an aborition, however this issuse doesn't really affect me. I decide if I want to be remain friends with them. It's up to the mother to decide if she believes the baby is truly alive or not.

Nice try to change the the subject. You clearly stated that you have no right to judge anyone's actions: "In the end God will judge her, not I." Accordingly, I could kill you and you could say nothing. Moral relativism at its finest.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: JustAnAverageGuy
Somebody very bad needs to happen to the mother. I can't quite think of a suitable punishment for that kind of tradegy though

I'm expecting dmcowen's "red state!" comments at any minute now. :roll:

To answer the question. Yes, an abortion would be warranted at her age.

Well you beat me to the Red State comment, that aside I disagree partly with your "solution".

Seriously unless the 12 yr old faces danger from the "fetus" at some point why abort it?

The choice should be up to the one pregnant including in this case a 12 yr old.

There are many families that would gladly adopt the child if the 12 yr old's family is not capable of supporting the baby.

Obviously in this case that is the case since the Mother is clearly not even suitable enough to be a Mother herself.

It's a sad situation but the decision should be for the one carrying the fetus.

Notice I said fetus not person.

That's where the Radical Fundamentalists get nuts, they give the same rights to a fetus that is not even thinking yet as we do up until the Schiavo case happened where the adult is back to a fetus state.

If she decides she does not want to go through with carrying full term all others should respect her decision, period.

Who the hell do people think they are making a decision for someone else's body???

Especially men.

I find myself agreeing with you more and more... (at least with the bolded part. )

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

She could have the situation explained to her and possibly have some input on the decision, it's possible she would prefer to have the baby and would be wracked with feelings of guilt if she was pushed into abortion.

No way do I think a child should be forced to continue a pregnancy brought about by rape.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Tabb
No it's not. By you killing me we have a massive chain reaction. My employeer would have to find a new employee, my college would have to deal with tons of stuff, my parents would be sad...etc etc etc etc... Not to mention there is obiviously something seriously wrong with the person who killed "ME".

Assuming someday you prove aborition is murder, you can't say her killing this baby is somehow lead to same consequences, nor remotely affect a couple people.

Murder at times, can be justified.

These are my own feelings on aborition. I wouldn't be very happy in my family members or my friends had an aborition, however this issuse doesn't really affect me. I decide if I want to be remain friends with them. It's up to the mother to decide if she believes the baby is truly alive or not.

Nice try to change the the subject. You clearly stated that you have no right to judge anyone's actions: "In the end God will judge her, not I." Accordingly, I could kill you and you could say nothing. Moral relativism at its finest.

If I beileved in god, it'd be a completely different story. Even if I did, I've said nothing that states we can't judge each other, or that we shouldn't. Most religions hold the beilef that god doesn't really punish us in this life but the next.

I left my own opinion at the bottom and stated as to why I disagree. So what if I changed the subject? It's still directly related as to what I said eariler. How ridiculous you even bother responding.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Tabb
If I beileved in god, it'd be a completely different story. Even if I did, I've said nothing that states we can't judge each other, or that we shouldn't. Most religions hold the beilef that god doesn't really punish us in this life but the next.

Um... "In the end God will judge her, not I." If you're going to lie, at least do it in a post that does QUOTE you as saying this very thing.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Tabb
If I beileved in god, it'd be a completely different story. Even if I did, I've said nothing that states we can't judge each other, or that we shouldn't. Most religions hold the beilef that god doesn't really punish us in this life but the next.

Um... "In the end God will judge her, not I." If you're going to lie, at least do it in a post that does QUOTE you as saying this very thing.

I lied? Where?

You just assumed I believed in god.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Tabb
I lied? Where?

You just assumed I believed in god.

I assumed no such thing. I merely read your entire statement, where you clearly state that you will not judge her. The implication of the statement in context is that no one should judge the actions of another.

 

[Tab]

In the END god will judge her, not I.

In end or the "afterlife" god will judge her. He will be the one who judges her, in the after life. Not this world.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Tabb
In the END god will judge her, not I.

In end or the "afterlife" god will judge her. He will be the one who judges her, in the after life. Not this world.

OK, then your response had absolutely nothing to do with the question asked. *shrug*

 

[Tab]

I answered your question.

Since, I don't beileve in god at all. I am undoubtly going to hell, you can look this up in Mark 16:16 I beileve.

Assuming I was religious and I beileved that there was some system that added up all the bad evil things we did or people "sinned" and that some perfect being exsisted as well. Since I am not perfect and god doesn't exsist in this world I can judge a person and it will affect them, however humans don't controll the afterlife god does. Therefore it's irrevalent to judge someone in the afterlife, if they're in heaven they deserve to be their. God's perfect after all.

Our goverment should and we shouldn't have any say over what happens to this 12 year old. It's her choice if she wants to bring life into this world. If she does, great for her! I hope she either puts it for adoption. If she aborts it, I hope she can hopefully live after her horrible past. Either way, her choice doesn't really affect anyone or any of us nor does it really affect the goverment. I don't really like aborition, its disgusting but it's not like I want to take away rights from people either. It's not like I really care if someone ruins there own life either, as long as it doesn't really affect me, the goverment or my family.

Since your such a anti-aborition advocate. Why do you care about this issuse? I do know you're father got fired from his job for refuses to teach how to perform aboritions but it's not like you're doing the same. Why should you care what someone does in their own life when it has a barley if any effect on you.

You're right by the way, indiviuals aren't really that important. If you killed me or I killed you, the world wouldn't really care or notice. The world would still continue and the united states would still exsist.