Poll: Was Trump's tweet to 4 Congresswomen of color to go back to your corrupt country, racist?

[cytg111]

Riling up the tiki torch gang again I see... But why right now? Something about a trial starting up in connection with Flynn and even more shady russian interaction?

 

[fskimospy]

Because things like religion and ethnicity aren't the same as race. Admittedly the "races" as currently imagined are an artificial construct, but they're real enough for most Americans to agree on them. If Trump said one of his typically abhorrent things to a person who was of the female sex, Caucasian race, Latino ethnicity, Jewish religion, and trans gender identity, if we were using precise language the statement still wouldn't be racism since it was said by a white person to a white person. Bigotry encompasses all of the following reprehensible things: racism, homophobia, misogyny, anti-semitism, prejudice against other ethnicities, etc.

Therefore even though "bigot" is a more encompassing/generic and less specific term than "racist" it's actually more precise in the case of both my hypothetical and what Trump said in real life to the 4 women. It's no less reprehensible than racist, just more accurate.

What I mean is that if people want to say bigot vs. racist that's fine by me because I don't find one type of bigotry more acceptable than the other.

 

[evident]

I've had this shit said to me growing up. And the way they said it was very racist. so yes.

 

[yllus]

At its essence he's saying that these non-white people should leave America for somewhere else, because their true home cannot be America... because they're non-white. I don't think a more racist statement is possible.

 

[HomerJS]

At its essence he's saying that these non-white people should leave America for somewhere else, because their true home cannot be America... because they're non-white. I don't think a more racist statement is possible.

However if you are one of those good people of color who just smiles and doesn't make waves because you are in Merica, we may let you stay. Besides if we kick you all out who is going to drive us around watch our kids, mow our lawns and clean our houses.

 

[zinfamous]

I think BoomerD has a point. It distracts from the deliberate cruelty towards migrants. It distracts from obstruction of investigation into previous obstruction. It distracts from the tax cutting looting of the Treasury by the financial elite. It distracts from the deliberate corrosion of the institutions of Democracy. It distracts from potentially ruinous foreign policy. It distracts from the utter corruption of his Admin.

this is all true.

it's also still racist.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I hesitated to wade into this dumpster fire...yet here I am. I agree with Glenn and the nuances.

To me, the real issue here isn't about a label. We simply need to focus on the fact that this is the behavior of the top honor position of the united states. Is this the behavior we expect and should demand from that position? Fighting over if it's racist or not doesn't fix anything. Focus on fact that is what is done over and over and over again just to spin up division and distraction. And we as voters have to decide if this is the behavior we really want for our commander in chief.

There is no "fighting" over it being racist. Its literally the fucking definition of racist. What is being fought over is if people are willing to defend such racism or not. And big surprise the people who regularly ignore facts and reality are the ones trying to demand that other people shouldn't call things what they are because they don't like the negative connotations.

If people were decent and had, after the fucking first time Turmp spun up this racist shit said "fuck you" he never would have been in a position to do any of the other shit. It should be telling that the people doing most of the harm are also the ones constantly pushing racist shit. They're not going to the well of bigotry to divide us. They're doing it because it gets them the most support. And that's why we need to especially work to deal with racism and dismantle its usefulness by despicable and corrupt persons like Turmp. Because if we turn it from something that galvanizes support for them, and instead make it be something that completely destroys their attempts to win power, we'll both make it entirely clear that such bigotry will not be tolerated, and will also deal with those other issues at the same time. Because its the same people responsible for both.

 

[senseamp]

Too bad their corrupt country is the US.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Trump has a long documented pattern of saying racist comments, notthe least were his attacks against Obama.

If it was a one off, you might have a point, but this is a pattern that repeats.

Hes a racist moron. Period.

It is truly baffling that anyone is trying to defend this by claiming its not racist bust just normal idiocy. That is very troubling as I think this racist whistling (its not even dogwhistling, he's outright saying blatantly racist stuff) is that he's essentially doing a loyalty check. I have a bad feeling that's because there's something really horrible being planned and he's trying to gauge how much it'll be accepted.

I think BoomerD has a point. It distracts from the deliberate cruelty towards migrants. It distracts from obstruction of investigation into previous obstruction. It distracts from the tax cutting looting of the Treasury by the financial elite. It distracts from the deliberate corrosion of the institutions of Democracy. It distracts from potentially ruinous foreign policy. It distracts from the utter corruption of his Admin.

You do realize BoomerD actually supports Turmp's anti-immigrant beliefs, right?

I don't agree that its distraction. The people that don't like Turmp aren't being distracted, and the people that do like him already don't care about the other stuff and will defend it without question.

In my opinion, he's doing an informal poll of what he can get away with. I think that was effectively what he was doing with the "shithole countries" comments, and is why he thought he could get away with his concentration camp plan. I think he's basically testing to see what the response is when he needs to find some way to claim the next election isn't valid if it doesn't go his way. I could see him absolutely declaring that certain areas' votes don't count by claiming that the people in them are not real Americans. Or maybe he'll just declare that certain members of Congress don't count because they aren't American. Hell what's to stop him from leveraging such claims against Sotomayor to declare Supreme Court rulings invalid.

Hell, almost half of REPUBLICANS think what Trump said is racist.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/trump-tweet-response-2019

He might think that this is good ground for him but that’s because he’s only able to think of his base, which is not large enough to win elections with.

Except he knows that it has a history of helping win elections, including recent history (as far as Presidency goes). Don't be surprised if Republicans en masse hammer the bigotry next year. They need to for two different reasons, one is to drum up conservative votes, and the other is because they will almost absolutely declare elections in liberal areas invalid and claim its from voter fraud by non Americans. They've been drumming up that rhetoric more and more, and they've been building the means to "legitimize" their claims by enshrining that belief in government. Which even if Americans take a stand about such behavior, that would still probably be enough for them to legally gum up elections moving forward. Just watch, we'll end up with a worse mess than ever.

Adapting to American culture is not what Trump was advocating. It's the spin put on after the fact Trump tweeted racist attacks against members of Congress.

What exactly is American identity and culture? Trump himself sure has not represented American values. There is a fear whites are losing the ability to define what they consider identity and culture and that is what Trump is playing into.

That all depends on who you ask (with regards to Turmp representing American values). That is very true, but we cycle back to the fact that the issue is that they view bigotry as their right, which is why trying to do something about bigotry sends them into a madness about losing their identity. It is a shame how many white people view racism as a key feature of American culture and their own personal identity.

 

[fskimospy]

Does he really have a habit of winning elections though? He won one by the skin of his teeth due to the help of the electoral college. Then the Republican Party followed his game plan of racial/immigrant panic and got destroyed in 2018.

I think it is more likely that they will follow his lead due to internal Republican Party dynamics where it maximizes an individual’s chances of winning a Republican PRIMARY than because it maximizes their chances of winning the actual elections.

 

[ivwshane]

Because things like religion and ethnicity aren't the same as race. Admittedly the "races" as currently imagined are an artificial construct, but they're real enough for most Americans to agree on them. If Trump said one of his typically abhorrent things to a person who was of the female sex, Caucasian race, Latino ethnicity, Jewish religion, and trans gender identity, if we were using precise language the statement still wouldn't be racism since it was said by a white person to a white person. Bigotry encompasses all of the following reprehensible things: racism, homophobia, misogyny, anti-semitism, prejudice against other ethnicities, etc.

Therefore even though "bigot" is a more encompassing/generic and less specific term than "racist" it's actually more precise in the case of both my hypothetical and what Trump said in real life to the 4 women. It's no less reprehensible than racist, just more accurate.

Wow! Way to thread that needle on a useless distinction.

Bravo! You really got to the heart of the issue didn't you. /


I also noticed that you didn't even have the balls to cast your vote in this poll. Hmm...I wonder why.

 

[Indus]

In my opinion, he's doing an informal poll of what he can get away with. I think that was effectively what he was doing with the "shithole countries" comments, and is why he thought he could get away with his concentration camp plan. I think he's basically testing to see what the response is when he needs to find some way to claim the next election isn't valid if it doesn't go his way. I could see him absolutely declaring that certain areas' votes don't count by claiming that the people in them are not real Americans. Or maybe he'll just declare that certain members of Congress don't count because they aren't American. Hell what's to stop him from leveraging such claims against Sotomayor to declare Supreme Court rulings invalid.

Think you're onto something.

Remember all the gop women were saying they'd happily give up their right to vote to have only men vote Trump as president.

If they're not calling his stuff now.. what's to stop him from saying NY and CA's electoral votes don't count because they've been invaded by illegal aliens. Therefore I win by default.

 

[Jhhnn]

You do realize BoomerD actually supports Turmp's anti-immigrant beliefs, right?

I don't agree that its distraction. The people that don't like Turmp aren't being distracted, and the people that do like him already don't care about the other stuff and will defend it without question.

Meh. Anybody who thought Trump wouldn't pander to racists after his Charlottesville remarks is a dolt. But we're here arguing with idiots about the definition of racism because they have alternative facts, and, well, truth isn't truth, anyway, is it?

Meanwhile, Trump & the GOP are burning down the institutions of Democracy & of the People.

 

[pcgeek11]

@pcgeek11 can you enlighten us as to why Trump’s comments were not racist?

I don't think it is possible to enlighten any of you.

When you have a hammer, everything is a nail.

Pelosi is racist too?

 

[Bitek]

I don't think it is possible to enlighten any of you.

When you have a hammer, everything is a nail.

Pelosi is racist too?

Hmm. I'm going with your real answer as "I refuse to admit it is true, but I'm not clever enough to come up with a plausible bullshit spin, so I'll punk out instead"

 

[SMOGZINN]

I don't think it is possible to enlighten any of you.

When you have a hammer, everything is a nail.

Pelosi is racist too?

Not that you have ever tried. I have read your posts, never blocking you because I want to hear other views. But you don't really have any. You do nothing but post smug 'I know better then you' posts, but never anything even resembling a coherent argument or reason for your views.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't think it is possible to enlighten any of you.

When you have a hammer, everything is a nail.

Pelosi is racist too?

Can you do us a favor and try to enlighten us anyway despite our obvious deficiencies?

 

[Indus]

When you have a hammer, everything is a nail.

Hahahahahaha! I think he nailed it.. Trump is hammering at everything he thinks is a nail (anyone that is not a white Trump voter like himself).

 

[HomerJS]

I don't think it is possible to enlighten any of you.

When you have a hammer, everything is a nail.

Pelosi is racist too?

Go read the federal government regulation concerning racist acts. What Trump said is almost a direct quote of racist behavior.

Are you about to tell us don’t believe our eyes?

 

[BoomerD]

It is truly baffling that anyone is trying to defend this by claiming its not racist bust just normal idiocy. That is very troubling as I think this racist whistling (its not even dogwhistling, he's outright saying blatantly racist stuff) is that he's essentially doing a loyalty check. I have a bad feeling that's because there's something really horrible being planned and he's trying to gauge how much it'll be accepted.



You do realize BoomerD actually supports Turmp's anti-immigrant beliefs, right?

I don't agree that its distraction. The people that don't like Turmp aren't being distracted, and the people that do like him already don't care about the other stuff and will defend it without question.

In my opinion, he's doing an informal poll of what he can get away with. I think that was effectively what he was doing with the "shithole countries" comments, and is why he thought he could get away with his concentration camp plan. I think he's basically testing to see what the response is when he needs to find some way to claim the next election isn't valid if it doesn't go his way. I could see him absolutely declaring that certain areas' votes don't count by claiming that the people in them are not real Americans. Or maybe he'll just declare that certain members of Congress don't count because they aren't American. Hell what's to stop him from leveraging such claims against Sotomayor to declare Supreme Court rulings invalid.



Except he knows that it has a history of helping win elections, including recent history (as far as Presidency goes). Don't be surprised if Republicans en masse hammer the bigotry next year. They need to for two different reasons, one is to drum up conservative votes, and the other is because they will almost absolutely declare elections in liberal areas invalid and claim its from voter fraud by non Americans. They've been drumming up that rhetoric more and more, and they've been building the means to "legitimize" their claims by enshrining that belief in government. Which even if Americans take a stand about such behavior, that would still probably be enough for them to legally gum up elections moving forward. Just watch, we'll end up with a worse mess than ever.



That all depends on who you ask (with regards to Turmp representing American values). That is very true, but we cycle back to the fact that the issue is that they view bigotry as their right, which is why trying to do something about bigotry sends them into a madness about losing their identity. It is a shame how many white people view racism as a key feature of American culture and their own personal identity.

Actually, I only support stopping ILLEGAL immigration and getting rid of as many illegal immigrants as possible. I'm fine with LEGAL immigration...as long as we're a bit more picky about who's let in...

 

[Sunburn74]

Go read the federal government regulation concerning racist acts. What Trump said is almost a direct quote of racist behavior.

Are you about to tell us don’t believe our eyes?

This.
If you were a boss and said that to an employee, you have just lost an open and shut racial discrimination case. Open and shut.

 

[woolfe9998]

Trump's rally has the crowd chanting "send her back!" over and over again, referring to Ilhan Omar. You can watch it here if you can stomach it.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/17/politics/donald-trump-greenville-rally/index.html

Anyone who doesn't see that this is as a proto-fascist movement in America right now has learned nothing from history. I see no difference whatever between this and say Germany circa 1925.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Trump's rally has the crowd chanting "send her back!" over and over again, referring to Ilhan Omar. You can watch it here if you can stomach it.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/17/politics/donald-trump-greenville-rally/index.html

Anyone who doesn't see that this is as a proto-fascist movement in America right now has learned nothing from history. I see no difference whatever between this and say Germany circa 1925.

Or Italy in the 1920's (I see Trump as more of a Mussolini)

 

[pcgeek11]

Hmm. I'm going with your real answer as "I refuse to admit it is true, but I'm not clever enough to come up with a plausible bullshit spin, so I'll punk out instead"

Not that you have ever tried. I have read your posts, never blocking you because I want to hear other views. But you don't really have any. You do nothing but post smug 'I know better then you' posts, but never anything even resembling a coherent argument or reason for your views.

Can you do us a favor and try to enlighten us anyway despite our obvious deficiencies?

It doesn't matter what I say. It is obvious from past experience if I don't agree with the likes of you, all you will do is to try and beat me down. I don't want to participate in your little circle jerk.

I do say I agree entirely with BoomerD and his reasoning.

Is Nancy Pelosi a racist too when she said:

“All these people have their public whatever and their twitter world. But they didn’t have any following.”

 

[pmv]

Or Italy in the 1920's (I see Trump as more of a Mussolini)

I don't think Trump is an exact parallel with Hitler or Mussolini. In that I think the conditions are very different (even if Trump's personality is alarmingly similar). I think probably the political and economic system is in a more robust condition than it was in those countries (and internationally) back then. There are definitely similarities, anyone (who isn't on the side of Reality-TV-Benito) can see that. Globally there are similarities with the 1930s, with similar wanna-be-despots popping up all over.

What scares me is that this is partly a consequence of a relatively mild economic-hiccup, the financial crash of 2008. It didn't take much to produce this pathetic simulacra of Mussolini.

The scary thought to me is what will happen if there's a bigger such crash sometime? Which I suppose makes it all the more urgent to get back to a more secure political position before that happens.