My intent is not to convince the world to abandon the tradition, I just think the truth needs to be known about it.
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Change comes about not by ignoring the negative but by confronting it and learning to overcome it
What is negative about a national holiday that brings friends and family together? I think you're going to have a difficult time convincing the rest of us that we should abandon this tradition.
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Arkitech
The year was 1637.....700 men, women and children of the Pequot Tribe, gathered for their "Annual Green Corn Dance" in the area that is now known as Groton, Conn. While they were gathered in this place of meeting, they were surrounded and attacked by mercernaries of the English and Dutch. The Indians were ordered from the building and as they came forth, they were shot down. The rest were burned alive in the building. The next day, the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony declared : "A Day of Thanksgiving", thanking God that they had eliminited over 700 men, women and children. For the next 100 years, every "Thanksgiving Day" ordained by a Governor or President was to honor that victory, thanking God that the battle had been won.
link 1
The most striking and little- known reality surrounding the Pilgrims is that the Eastern coastline of America had been in contact with foreigners for about 100 years before the establishment of the Plymouth colony. A year before colonists arrived, smallpox introduced by these contacts had wiped out the Wampanoag village that the Pilgrims settled. Pilgrims were able to survive their first winter partially because of guidance by the natives and because they dug up the deceased Wampanoags to eat the corn offerings in the graves.
link 2
What many history books don't tell us is that Thanksgiving may have been held to celebrate the massacre of Indians. In colonial times the settlers periodically held religious fasts, or "days of humiliation," and Thanksgiving days throughout the year. Sometimes such a day marked an Indian Massacre.
According to William B. Newell, a-Penobscot Indian and former chairman of the anthropology department at the University of Connecticut, the first official Thanksgiving Day Commemorated the massacre of 700 Indian men, women and children during one of their religious ceremonies. The Indians were celebrating their annual green corn dance--Thanksgiving Day to them--in a meeting house when they were attacked by English and Dutch settlers. The Indians were ordered from the building, and shot down as they came forth. Those who were left inside died in the building, which was set on fire. Another such "thanksgiving" day was proclaimed by Gov. Kieft in February 1644.
link 3
The Puritans were not just simple religious conservatives persecuted by the Church of England. They were outcasts and fugitives who came to the new world to establish a "Holy Kingdom". And they came to America in at least 100 ships. Their plan was to take the land from the native people to build their own country. They were the "chosen ones," or so they thought, in a holy war against Satan. Here is what Thomas Mather, the leader of the Puritans, was reported to have said on Thanksgiving day;
"In a Thanksgiving sermon delivered at Plymouth in 1623, Thomas Mather, an elder, gave special thanks to God for the devastating plague that wiped out most of the native Wampanoag Indians. Mather added in his sermon that he praised God for destroying chiefly the young men and the children, whom he described as the "very seeds of increase, thus clearing the forests to make way for a better growth."
To the Pilgrims, the Indians were heathens and instruments of the devil. The Indians were considered dangerous. They courted them, waiting for additional ships to arrive. The real reason behind the first Thanksgiving feast was to negotiate a treaty for land that would give the Pilgrims time to build their Army. The irony was that the Indians brought most of the food for that first feast.
link 4
Don't believe everything you read.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Your sources are suspect and conflict with each other.
Yes some of the history is conflicting, however the point that needs to be made is that Thanksgiving is'nt some sweet little story like people believe it to be.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Change comes about not by ignoring the negative but by confronting it and learning to overcome it
What is negative about a national holiday that brings friends and family together? I think you're going to have a difficult time convincing the rest of us that we should abandon this tradition.
My intent is not to convince the world to abandon the tradition, I just think the truth needs to be known about it.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Stop falling for PC nonsense.
How is it nonsense?
Because the harm to American Indians came much later in history.
Because it really has very little to do with any actual event, and more to do with a time of positive reflection.
Because it gets really old listening to teenagers go negative about every gawd damn thing in the fscking world.
Because I'm insulted that Indians are insulted... but no one gives a fsck about that, now do they?
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Peetoeng
I read that the holiday itself was formally instituted by Lincoln, decades after the first thanksgiving dinner.
Any scant of goodness, even reconstructed one, in human history needs to be celebrated. Greed and violence need no celebration, they are with us in one never-ending orgy from time immemorial.
Have a nice day! :laugh:
Agreed.
I can never understand why people feel the need to tear down some of the good traditions in society in the name of some atrocity that happened in the past. The tradition of Thanksgiving doesn't really have anything to do with the Anglo-Saxon conquest of this continent. It is a celebration of the harvest in the fall and a time to spend with family (watching football). Stop being so fvcking negative and try to enjoy it for christsake.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Peetoeng
I read that the holiday itself was formally instituted by Lincoln, decades after the first thanksgiving dinner.
Any scant of goodness, even reconstructed one, in human history needs to be celebrated. Greed and violence need no celebration, they are with us in one never-ending orgy from time immemorial.
Have a nice day! :laugh:
Agreed.
I can never understand why people feel the need to tear down some of the good traditions in society in the name of some atrocity that happened in the past. The tradition of Thanksgiving doesn't really have anything to do with the Anglo-Saxon conquest of this continent. It is a celebration of the harvest in the fall and a time to spend with family (watching football). Stop being so fvcking negative and try to enjoy it for christsake.
You gotta look at it from another viewpoint, what might seem to you as a beautiful tradition is a slap in the face for those people who know the real history. I used to work with a lady a few years ago who was a direct descendant of the native american indians and she told me how she would get depressed every year near thanksgiving. Anyway to make a long story short she explained to me about the actual history of thanksgiving and it gave me an entirely different perspective.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Your sources are suspect and conflict with each other.
Yes some of the history is conflicting, however the point that needs to be made is that Thanksgiving is'nt some sweet little story like people believe it to be.
Nothing is.
Thanksgiving is an IDEA. Not an event.
Stop tearing down what is essentially a positive thing.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Change comes about not by ignoring the negative but by confronting it and learning to overcome it
What is negative about a national holiday that brings friends and family together? I think you're going to have a difficult time convincing the rest of us that we should abandon this tradition.
My intent is not to convince the world to abandon the tradition, I just think the truth needs to be known about it.
People already are well aware of the transgressions against the American Indian.
Most of us choose not to wallow in it. NONE of us had any direct action in it.
It's time to move on.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Your sources are suspect and conflict with each other.
Yes some of the history is conflicting, however the point that needs to be made is that Thanksgiving is'nt some sweet little story like people believe it to be.
Nothing is.
Thanksgiving is an IDEA. Not an event.
Stop tearing down what is essentially a positive thing.
WHO is it a positive thing for? If a man wiped out your family and then years later commerated the event with an annual feast would you say it's cool now that he put a positive spin on it?
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Peetoeng
I read that the holiday itself was formally instituted by Lincoln, decades after the first thanksgiving dinner.
Any scant of goodness, even reconstructed one, in human history needs to be celebrated. Greed and violence need no celebration, they are with us in one never-ending orgy from time immemorial.
Have a nice day! :laugh:
Agreed.
I can never understand why people feel the need to tear down some of the good traditions in society in the name of some atrocity that happened in the past. The tradition of Thanksgiving doesn't really have anything to do with the Anglo-Saxon conquest of this continent. It is a celebration of the harvest in the fall and a time to spend with family (watching football). Stop being so fvcking negative and try to enjoy it for christsake.
You gotta look at it from another viewpoint, what might seem to you as a beautiful tradition is a slap in the face for those people who know the real history. I used to work with a lady a few years ago who was a direct descendant of the native american indians and she told me how she would get depressed every year near thanksgiving. Anyway to make a long story short she explained to me about the actual history of thanksgiving and it gave me an entirely different perspective.
That was HER problem, not ours. She choose to wallow in the negative rather than celebrate the positive.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Change comes about not by ignoring the negative but by confronting it and learning to overcome it
What is negative about a national holiday that brings friends and family together? I think you're going to have a difficult time convincing the rest of us that we should abandon this tradition.
My intent is not to convince the world to abandon the tradition, I just think the truth needs to be known about it.
People already are well aware of the transgressions against the American Indian.
Most of us choose not to wallow in it. NONE of us had any direct action in it.
It's time to move on.
It's true that none of us had a hand in it but how can you move on if it's being celebrated every year? It's opening wounds up everytime the holiday gets celebrated every year.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Peetoeng
I read that the holiday itself was formally instituted by Lincoln, decades after the first thanksgiving dinner.
Any scant of goodness, even reconstructed one, in human history needs to be celebrated. Greed and violence need no celebration, they are with us in one never-ending orgy from time immemorial.
Have a nice day! :laugh:
Agreed.
I can never understand why people feel the need to tear down some of the good traditions in society in the name of some atrocity that happened in the past. The tradition of Thanksgiving doesn't really have anything to do with the Anglo-Saxon conquest of this continent. It is a celebration of the harvest in the fall and a time to spend with family (watching football). Stop being so fvcking negative and try to enjoy it for christsake.
You gotta look at it from another viewpoint, what might seem to you as a beautiful tradition is a slap in the face for those people who know the real history. I used to work with a lady a few years ago who was a direct descendant of the native american indians and she told me how she would get depressed every year near thanksgiving. Anyway to make a long story short she explained to me about the actual history of thanksgiving and it gave me an entirely different perspective.
That was HER problem, not ours. She choose to wallow in the negative rather than celebrate the positive.
Wow, that's truly amazing.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Your sources are suspect and conflict with each other.
Yes some of the history is conflicting, however the point that needs to be made is that Thanksgiving is'nt some sweet little story like people believe it to be.
Nothing is.
Thanksgiving is an IDEA. Not an event.
Stop tearing down what is essentially a positive thing.
WHO is it a positive thing for? If a man wiped out your family and then years later commerated the event with an annual feast would you say it's cool now that he put a positive spin on it?
No one wiped out her family.
This is like the slavery issue. No one living today has any direct memory of slavery... but they like to act as if they do.
Move on.
The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle, or the ship; the axe had enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.
No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Stop falling for PC nonsense.
How is it nonsense?
Because the harm to American Indians came much later in history.
Because it really has very little to do with any actual event, and more to do with a time of positive reflection.
Because it gets really old listening to teenagers go negative about every gawd damn thing in the fscking world.
Because I'm insulted that Indians are insulted... but no one gives a fsck about that, now do they?
You know, this is all that needs to be said. But one side decided to push aside some concerns by saying the sources weren't credible and that we shouldn't have to worry about someone else's problems. Let US be happy. Gee, we're only celebrating at a time of someone else's sorrow... on their soil. People had no idea what we're even celebrating. :roll:Originally posted by: clamum
Both of you have a point... questioning history and traditions so things don't happen again yet you don't have to wallow in it, as Amused said there's some event(s) that were terrible in our history.
Originally posted by: rh71
.
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Your sources are suspect and conflict with each other.
Yes some of the history is conflicting, however the point that needs to be made is that Thanksgiving is'nt some sweet little story like people believe it to be.
Nothing is.
Thanksgiving is an IDEA. Not an event.
Stop tearing down what is essentially a positive thing.
WHO is it a positive thing for? If a man wiped out your family and then years later commerated the event with an annual feast would you say it's cool now that he put a positive spin on it?
No one wiped out her family.
This is like the slavery issue. No one living today has any direct memory of slavery... but they like to act as if they do.
Move on.
Dude it does'nt work that way. I can't believe people can still be so insensitive to issues like these. I get the feeling when subjects like these are brought up certain people feel guilty so they want everyone to not talk about it or bring it up. Its not about pointing the finger at anyone or casting blame, it's about people wanting others to know the truth about certain events and basically getting rid of things that celebrate those unfortunate time periods in history.
For example when you see the swastika what kind of image does that conjur up? For many it reminds them of the holocaust. The confederate flag brings to mind the period in our nation when slavery was allowed. Speaking of Pearl Harbor invokes memories of when the Japanese attacked the US. Why would anyone want to celebrate those type of events? Same goes for thanksgiving.
Yeah I put something nicer up instead.Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: rh71
.
dude you made a good point, why'd you edit it out?
Just for clarity though this post is more of an FYI. It's just like the goverment and it's misinformation campaign on cannabis. Knowing what the truth about a subject or event should always be preferrable to the lie someone wants you to beleive.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: Amused
Your sources are suspect and conflict with each other.
Yes some of the history is conflicting, however the point that needs to be made is that Thanksgiving is'nt some sweet little story like people believe it to be.
Nothing is.
Thanksgiving is an IDEA. Not an event.
Stop tearing down what is essentially a positive thing.
WHO is it a positive thing for? If a man wiped out your family and then years later commerated the event with an annual feast would you say it's cool now that he put a positive spin on it?
No one wiped out her family.
This is like the slavery issue. No one living today has any direct memory of slavery... but they like to act as if they do.
Move on.
Dude it does'nt work that way. I can't believe people can still be so insensitive to issues like these. I get the feeling when subjects like these are brought up certain people feel guilty so they want everyone to not talk about it or bring it up. Its not about pointing the finger at anyone or casting blame, it's about people wanting others to know the truth about certain events and basically getting rid of things that celebrate those unfortunate time periods in history.
For example when you see the swastika what kind of image does that conjur up? For many it reminds them of the holocaust. The confederate flag brings to mind the period in our nation when slavery was allowed. Speaking of Pearl Harbor invokes memories of when the Japanese attacked the US. Why would anyone want to celebrate those type of events? Same goes for thanksgiving.
We know what happened. There is recognozing history, and there is wallowing in it.
Thanksgiving is NOT about the slaughter of American indians. It never was. It's a holiday for positive reflection. That some Indians choose to focus only on the negative is NOT a reason for me to feel any guilt.
In fact, I feel no guilt for what happened to teh American Indians. I feel a duty to learn from history, but I feel no guilt. And why should I feel any guilt? I did nothing to feel guilty for.