POLL: Why is Thanksgiving a national holiday?

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: clamum
Both of you have a point... questioning history and traditions so things don't happen again yet you don't have to wallow in it, as Amused said there's some event(s) that were terrible in our history.

You know, this is all that needs to be said. But one side decided to push aside some concerns by saying the sources weren't credible and that we shouldn't have to worry about someone else's problems. Let US be happy. Gee, we're only celebrating at a time of someone else's sorrow... on their soil. People had no idea what we're even celebrating. :roll:

since when is a link to angelfire credible?

 

[kranky]

You asked "why is Thanksgiving a national holiday?" It is because Lincoln declared it to be one, using the words I quoted above. There is no connection to murdering Indians. Nothing is being "covered up".

I don't know how else to explain it. Unless someone can show me where Lincoln said something about murdering Indians, I can't sympathize with people who want to insist it means something other than what it really does.

If I got a group of people to declare that red ribbons indicate advocating child abuse, does that make it so?

 

[broon]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

I'm glad you don't feel guilty, that was'nt my intent of this post. By the way if you dislike this topic just wait til I write one on christmas in a few weeks.

I'm interested in that one. It should be changed to Santamas.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: FallenHero
What do you celebrate then? The 4th of July? The birth of a nation which slaughtered thousands if not millions of Native Americans and displaced them from their land? How about Lincolns birthday...he violated the US constitution. Washington? Slave owner. Veterens day? American war crimes. (And don't say they don't happen. NOBODY is perfect.)

Look, I can come up with a negative aspect for almost every holiday America has. Why don't I? Because I REALLY DON'T CARE. It's not that I do not know about the past problems, its that it does NOT pertain to the current time period. Anyone who dwells on that crap is a sad person who cannot move on and wants other to feel pitty on their situation. Anyone who feels sorry for those people needs to get off their hippy liberal ideals, stop with the PC crap, and move on with their lives.

Personally I don't celebrate any holidays, but that's my choice and I don't enforce it on others.

Why is it wrong to feel compassion for others? If a friend or family member told you they felt bad about some event that happened to them would you criticize them about it? It's not about dwelling on the past but its just simply acknowledging that it happened, is that such a terrible thing?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Arkitech


I'm glad you don't feel guilty, that was'nt my intent of this post. By the way if you dislike this topic just wait til I write one on christmas in a few weeks.

I'm agnostic.

But again, I celebrate Christmas as a winter holiday to gather with family. I'd do the same if it was called Winter Holiday.

The meanings behind holidays are not nearly as important as the meanings they have grown into.

History is filled with terrible things. NOTHING in history is clean.

You know, I used to be just like you. I used to find negative in everything and I was an atheist activist. Then I grew up and realized that if you focus only on the negative, you'll spend your life bitter and full of hate. I realized I was going around tearing down everything and anything anyone who disagreed with me saw as positive in their lives.

And you know what I accomplished by doing so? Absolutely nothing.

Face it, this kind of action is just an advanced form of Teenage rejection of the norm.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: clamum
Both of you have a point... questioning history and traditions so things don't happen again yet you don't have to wallow in it, as Amused said there's some event(s) that were terrible in our history.

You know, this is all that needs to be said. But one side decided to push aside some concerns by saying the sources weren't credible and that we shouldn't have to worry about someone else's problems. Let US be happy. Gee, we're only celebrating at a time of someone else's sorrow... on their soil. People had no idea what we're even celebrating. :roll:

since when is a link to angelfire credible?

heh, you too ? Politicians in the making.

Do you deny it happened ? Then why even bother commenting on the source ? It's basically saying "it didn't happen.. look where you got it from." Ask yourself why would people make this kind of stuff up. Homers...

 

[broon]

Originally posted by: Amused

I'm agnostic.

But again, I celebrate Christmas as a winter holiday to gather with family. I'd do the same if it was called Winter Holiday.

You shouldn't be allowed to celebrate Christmas.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: clamum
Both of you have a point... questioning history and traditions so things don't happen again yet you don't have to wallow in it, as Amused said there's some event(s) that were terrible in our history.

You know, this is all that needs to be said. But one side decided to push aside some concerns by saying the sources weren't credible and that we shouldn't have to worry about someone else's problems. Let US be happy. Gee, we're only celebrating at a time of someone else's sorrow... on their soil. People had no idea what we're even celebrating. :roll:

since when is a link to angelfire credible?

heh, you too ? Politicians in the making.

Do you deny it happened ? Then why even bother commenting on the source ? It's basically saying "it didn't happen.. look where you got it from." Ask yourself why would people make this kind of stuff up. Homers...

Read Snopes lately? Why do people make any myths up? I dunno, but the world and history are full of them.

Why should I worry about American Indians being insulted by this holiday? I think their concerns are invalid. They are wallowing in something that happened long before they were born.

It's time to move on.

 

[Mucho]

Originally posted by: Shelly21
So did we really invited the native americans over for dinner and then slaughtered them?

No, they were fattened up first.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: clamum
Both of you have a point... questioning history and traditions so things don't happen again yet you don't have to wallow in it, as Amused said there's some event(s) that were terrible in our history.

You know, this is all that needs to be said. But one side decided to push aside some concerns by saying the sources weren't credible and that we shouldn't have to worry about someone else's problems. Let US be happy. Gee, we're only celebrating at a time of someone else's sorrow... on their soil. People had no idea what we're even celebrating. :roll:

since when is a link to angelfire credible?

heh, you too ? Politicians in the making.

Do you deny it happened ? Then why even bother commenting on the source ? It's basically saying "it didn't happen.. look where you got it from." Ask yourself why would people make this kind of stuff up. Homers...

Read Snopes lately? Why do people make any myths up? I dunno, but the world and history are full of them.

Why should I worry about American Indians being insulted by this holiday? I think their concerns are invalid. They are wallowing in something that happened long before they were born.

It's time to move on.

I don't disagree with you that WE should move on but WE need to know what we're moving on from. How many ATOTers knew about this travesty in the first place ? That was the point of this thread. Not to ask others for feelings of sorrow but to KNOW what happened. At least that's how I took it so it served its purpose.

And your brushing aside the facts by saying we need to move on is no excuse for practically claiming it didn't happen with the "it's not credible" argument. You're not wiggling your way out of that one.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Arkitech


I'm glad you don't feel guilty, that was'nt my intent of this post. By the way if you dislike this topic just wait til I write one on christmas in a few weeks.

I'm agnostic.

But again, I celebrate Christmas as a winter holiday to gather with family. I'd do the same if it was called Winter Holiday.

The meanings behind holidays are not nearly as important as the meanings they have grown into.

History is filled with terrible things. NOTHING in history is clean.

You know, I used to be just like you. I used to find negative in everything and I was an atheist activist. Then I grew up and realized that if you focus only on the negative, you'll spend your life bitter and full of hate. I realized I was going around tearing down everything and anything anyone who disagreed with me saw as positive in their lives.

And you know what I accomplished by doing so? Absolutely nothing.

Face it, this kind of action is just an advanced form of Teenage rejection of the norm.

Basically I just believe in trying to know what the truth is. Personally I don't think we need holidays to celebrate life and family, but again that's just my personal belief and no one but me has to adhere to it. However I do believe that everyone should know the origin or the truth about things such as holidays and other related events. What they choose to do with the truth is up to them but at least they will know right from wrong.

I visit another forum and I like to post topics that basically talk about black people should stop blaming everyone else for all of their issues. I get the exact same kind of responses that I do there that I'm getting here. Interesting.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: FallenHero
What do you celebrate then? The 4th of July? The birth of a nation which slaughtered thousands if not millions of Native Americans and displaced them from their land? How about Lincolns birthday...he violated the US constitution. Washington? Slave owner. Veterens day? American war crimes. (And don't say they don't happen. NOBODY is perfect.)

Look, I can come up with a negative aspect for almost every holiday America has. Why don't I? Because I REALLY DON'T CARE. It's not that I do not know about the past problems, its that it does NOT pertain to the current time period. Anyone who dwells on that crap is a sad person who cannot move on and wants other to feel pitty on their situation. Anyone who feels sorry for those people needs to get off their hippy liberal ideals, stop with the PC crap, and move on with their lives.

Personally I don't celebrate any holidays, but that's my choice and I don't enforce it on others.

Why is it wrong to feel compassion for others? If a friend or family member told you they felt bad about some event that happened to them would you criticize them about it? It's not about dwelling on the past but its just simply acknowledging that it happened, is that such a terrible thing?

What's weird is.............you claim all this "compassion for others" and don't "celebrate" any holidays but............you haven't figured out the most basic thing..................holidays are what you make of them.................they are a time to be with family and loved ones...................to celebrate your time with your family or those you care about.............you don't have to spend one second reflecting what is "recognized" if you do not wish to.................

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: clamum
Both of you have a point... questioning history and traditions so things don't happen again yet you don't have to wallow in it, as Amused said there's some event(s) that were terrible in our history.

You know, this is all that needs to be said. But one side decided to push aside some concerns by saying the sources weren't credible and that we shouldn't have to worry about someone else's problems. Let US be happy. Gee, we're only celebrating at a time of someone else's sorrow... on their soil. People had no idea what we're even celebrating. :roll:

since when is a link to angelfire credible?

heh, you too ? Politicians in the making.

Do you deny it happened ? Then why even bother commenting on the source ? It's basically saying "it didn't happen.. look where you got it from." Ask yourself why would people make this kind of stuff up. Homers...

Read Snopes lately? Why do people make any myths up? I dunno, but the world and history are full of them.

Why should I worry about American Indians being insulted by this holiday? I think their concerns are invalid. They are wallowing in something that happened long before they were born.

It's time to move on.

I don't disagree with you that WE should move on but WE need to know what we're moving on from. How many of us knew about this travesty in the first place ? That was the point of this thread.

And your brushing aside the facts by saying we need to move on is no excuse for practically claiming it didn't happen with the "it's not credible" argument. You're not wiggling your way out of that one.

His sources conflicted with each other. That alone draws into question the validity of the argument. Why should I argue against it when his own sources argue against each other? In this case, I don't need to wiggle.

America is well aware of the travesty committed against the American Indian. I doubt you could find a man on the street who doesn't have some idea of it. We KNOW the history.

The plain fact is, Thanksgiving as a national holiday has NOTHING to do with that.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: clamum
Both of you have a point... questioning history and traditions so things don't happen again yet you don't have to wallow in it, as Amused said there's some event(s) that were terrible in our history.

You know, this is all that needs to be said. But one side decided to push aside some concerns by saying the sources weren't credible and that we shouldn't have to worry about someone else's problems. Let US be happy. Gee, we're only celebrating at a time of someone else's sorrow... on their soil. People had no idea what we're even celebrating. :roll:

since when is a link to angelfire credible?

heh, you too ? Politicians in the making.

Do you deny it happened ? Then why even bother commenting on the source ? It's basically saying "it didn't happen.. look where you got it from." Ask yourself why would people make this kind of stuff up. Homers...

Read Snopes lately? Why do people make any myths up? I dunno, but the world and history are full of them.

Why should I worry about American Indians being insulted by this holiday? I think their concerns are invalid. They are wallowing in something that happened long before they were born.

It's time to move on.

So in essence what you're saying is that any event that happened before a person was born is irrelevant?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Arkitech


I'm glad you don't feel guilty, that was'nt my intent of this post. By the way if you dislike this topic just wait til I write one on christmas in a few weeks.

I'm agnostic.

But again, I celebrate Christmas as a winter holiday to gather with family. I'd do the same if it was called Winter Holiday.

The meanings behind holidays are not nearly as important as the meanings they have grown into.

History is filled with terrible things. NOTHING in history is clean.

You know, I used to be just like you. I used to find negative in everything and I was an atheist activist. Then I grew up and realized that if you focus only on the negative, you'll spend your life bitter and full of hate. I realized I was going around tearing down everything and anything anyone who disagreed with me saw as positive in their lives.

And you know what I accomplished by doing so? Absolutely nothing.

Face it, this kind of action is just an advanced form of Teenage rejection of the norm.

Basically I just believe in trying to know what the truth is. Personally I don't think we need holidays to celebrate life and family, but again that's just my personal belief and no one but me has to adhere to it. However I do believe that everyone should know the origin or the truth about things such as holidays and other related events. What they choose to do with the truth is up to them but at least they will know right from wrong.

Again, I used to be just like you. And being that way accomplished exactly nothing but frustration for me.

I visit another forum and I like to post topics that basically talk about black people should stop blaming everyone else for all of their issues. I get the exact same kind of responses that I do there that I'm getting here. Interesting.

Because the issues are very similar. Many from both cultures/communities have choosen to wallow in the past and allow that to define their lives and mold their cultures. I believe that has a VERY negative influence on their lives and the lives of those within their communities.

 

[Afrotech]

Arkitech>>

instead of Christmas, i would rather you talk about halloween.

as a christian, im not offended by the holiday. i can point out some bad stuff about the past of halloween... BUT look at what it has become. a day where little kids (and some adults ) have fun dressing up, and getting some candy.

all this pc crap is really annoying. i understand that some ppl don't like our holidays... tough... i don't think we should be so limp wristed as to preach about all the bad things that have happened in the past and overlook or overshadow what a holiday has become, just to please 2% of the population.

what really ticks me off is that the pc ppl love to degrade our holidays, but never point out other cultures faults... brazil has a statue commemorating the massacre of all the indians in their country.... why don't you go there and preach to them.


no... we are supposed to be "open" to other cultures beliefs so my cultural teachers told me in college... and i also never hear anything about womens rights in the arab world, or the christian slaves in africa, children sex slaves in morroco no... let's just nit pick about piddly crap here in america that doesn't mean jack

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Amused
Stop falling for PC nonsense.

How is it nonsense?

Because the harm to American Indians came much later in history.

Because it really has very little to do with any actual event, and more to do with a time of positive reflection.

Because it gets really old listening to teenagers go negative about every gawd damn thing in the fscking world.

Because I'm insulted that Indians are insulted... but no one gives a fsck about that, now do they?

he knew that, this thread is flame bait

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: clamum
Both of you have a point... questioning history and traditions so things don't happen again yet you don't have to wallow in it, as Amused said there's some event(s) that were terrible in our history.

You know, this is all that needs to be said. But one side decided to push aside some concerns by saying the sources weren't credible and that we shouldn't have to worry about someone else's problems. Let US be happy. Gee, we're only celebrating at a time of someone else's sorrow... on their soil. People had no idea what we're even celebrating. :roll:

since when is a link to angelfire credible?

heh, you too ? Politicians in the making.

Do you deny it happened ? Then why even bother commenting on the source ? It's basically saying "it didn't happen.. look where you got it from." Ask yourself why would people make this kind of stuff up. Homers...

Read Snopes lately? Why do people make any myths up? I dunno, but the world and history are full of them.

Why should I worry about American Indians being insulted by this holiday? I think their concerns are invalid. They are wallowing in something that happened long before they were born.

It's time to move on.

So in essence what you're saying is that any event that happened before a person was born is irrelevant?

No, I'm saying it is not a life defining event for that person. History is to be learned from so the negative is not repeated again. It is not to be wallowed in and only the negative focused on.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Afrotech
Arkitech>>

instead of Christmas, i would rather you talk about halloween.

as a christian, im not offended by the holiday. i can point out some bad stuff about the past of halloween... BUT look at what it has become. a day where little kids (and some adults ) have fun dressing up, and getting some candy.

all this pc crap is really annoying. i understand that some ppl don't like our holidays... tough... i don't think we should be so limp wristed as to preach about all the bad things that have happened in the past and overlook or overshadow what a holiday has become, just to please 2% of the population.

what really ticks me off is that the pc ppl love to degrade our holidays, but never point out other cultures faults... brazil has a statue commemorating the massacre of all the indians in their country.... why don't you go there and preach to them.

I'm not PC by any means.

Why is it wrong for me to bring up the truth behind this holiday? Is it wallowing in the past to bring up the possible origin behind the event?

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Afrotech
Arkitech>>

instead of Christmas, i would rather you talk about halloween.

as a christian, im not offended by the holiday. i can point out some bad stuff about the past of halloween... BUT look at what it has become. a day where little kids (and some adults ) have fun dressing up, and getting some candy.

all this pc crap is really annoying. i understand that some ppl don't like our holidays... tough... i don't think we should be so limp wristed as to preach about all the bad things that have happened in the past and overlook or overshadow what a holiday has become, just to please 2% of the population.

what really ticks me off is that the pc ppl love to degrade our holidays, but never point out other cultures faults... brazil has a statue commemorating the massacre of all the indians in their country.... why don't you go there and preach to them.

I'm not PC by any means.

Why is it wrong for me to bring up the truth behind this holiday? Is it wallowing in the past to bring up the possible origin behind the event?

The wrong is that what you are saying has nothing to do with "truth". Thanksgiving in the US is our local variation on Harvest Home type celebrations from England. It is all about giving thanks for a bountiful year and successful harvest. Of course today we just go to the supermarket to get our food but I am grateful beyond belief that there is one day a year where I can get together with my family and share our joy at the passing of another year with all the good and bad fortune that goes along with life.

By the way the Pilgrims just have better press, Thanksgiving was actually celebrated before they even arrived.

The first observance of Thanksgiving in America was entirely religious in nature and involved no form of feasting. On December 4, 1619, a group of 38 English settlers arrived at Berkeley Plantation on the James River...a location now known as Charles City, Virginia. The charter of the group required that the day of arrival be observed as a Day of Thanksgiving to God.

 

[Afrotech]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: Afrotech
Arkitech>>

instead of Christmas, i would rather you talk about halloween.

as a christian, im not offended by the holiday. i can point out some bad stuff about the past of halloween... BUT look at what it has become. a day where little kids (and some adults ) have fun dressing up, and getting some candy.

all this pc crap is really annoying. i understand that some ppl don't like our holidays... tough... i don't think we should be so limp wristed as to preach about all the bad things that have happened in the past and overlook or overshadow what a holiday has become, just to please 2% of the population.

what really ticks me off is that the pc ppl love to degrade our holidays, but never point out other cultures faults... brazil has a statue commemorating the massacre of all the indians in their country.... why don't you go there and preach to them.

I'm not PC by any means.

Why is it wrong for me to bring up the truth behind this holiday? Is it wallowing in the past to bring up the possible origin behind the event?

it's not wrong or wallowing... but the truth is we all know what we did... or we should. we are taught this in our "wonderful" public education. i agree with you that we need to understand the history behind things. i just don't think we need to be reminded of it year after year (that is where i tend to think ppl wallow), or have the truth degrade what the holiday means today. my fellow christians who contanty whine about halloween tick me off too... just enjoy what the holiday means to us today.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Amused

I'm agnostic.

But again, I celebrate Christmas as a winter holiday to gather with family. I'd do the same if it was called Winter Holiday.

The meanings behind holidays are not nearly as important as the meanings they have grown into.

History is filled with terrible things. NOTHING in history is clean.

You know, I used to be just like you. I used to find negative in everything and I was an atheist activist. Then I grew up and realized that if you focus only on the negative, you'll spend your life bitter and full of hate. I realized I was going around tearing down everything and anything anyone who disagreed with me saw as positive in their lives.

And you know what I accomplished by doing so? Absolutely nothing.

Face it, this kind of action is just an advanced form of Teenage rejection of the norm.

Excellent post! :thumbsup:

 

[Ninjja]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Peetoeng

I read that the holiday itself was formally instituted by Lincoln, decades after the first thanksgiving dinner.

Any scant of goodness, even reconstructed one, in human history needs to be celebrated. Greed and violence need no celebration, they are with us in one never-ending orgy from time immemorial.


Have a nice day! :laugh:

Agreed.

I can never understand why people feel the need to tear down some of the good traditions in society in the name of some atrocity that happened in the past. The tradition of Thanksgiving doesn't really have anything to do with the Anglo-Saxon conquest of this continent. It is a celebration of the harvest in the fall and a time to spend with family (watching football). Stop being so fvcking negative and try to enjoy it for christsake.

woah there, calm down. he only asked a question and was asking for input.

 

[MisfitsFiend]

As if holidays really mean what they originally did anymore. It's just another excuse for the mall to have a sale.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
I'm not PC by any means.

Why is it wrong for me to bring up the truth behind this holiday? Is it wallowing in the past to bring up the possible origin behind the event?

Who says it is the truth behind this holiday? You weren't there, you have no idea what transpired and those quotes you posted earlier are making some really huge assumptions about the motives of those involved. I wouldn't take much of that reading as fact and I certainly wouldn't dwell on it. It is provocative but that's about it.