Pope wants to be kept alive until the very end

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nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Originally posted by: PELarson
Ouch... that is gonna hurt.

Adrian VI

Utrecht Netherlands

thanks for the link. he was the first non-Italian pope in ~450 years. not the first non-Italian pope ever.

Peter, the first pope ever, was not Italian, and for much of the papal history, Italy did not exist as a unified country.

according to http://eefy.editme.com/BishopOfRome, there have been 58 non-italian popes, including fifteen Greeks, fifteen Frenchmen, six Germans, and an Englishman.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: PELarson
Ouch... that is gonna hurt.

Adrian VI

Utrecht Netherlands

thanks for the link. he was the first non-Italian pope in ~450 years. not the first non-Italian pope ever.

Peter, the first pope ever, was not Italian, and for much of the papal history, Italy did not exist as a unified country.

according to http://eefy.editme.com/BishopOfRome, there have been 58 non-italian popes, including fifteen Greeks, fifteen Frenchmen, six Germans, and an Englishman.


If you go back enough you will even find Popes who got married, lead the army in battle, and came from Rome patrician families that knew he was going to be a Pope even before he born.
I am (like any serious vatican affairs storiographist) referring to the modern church, from the 17th century to present days.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: jjzelinski
I find it odd that a man of Christ will do anything to deny and postpone the nature of his own death. I woud've figured someone so enlightened would've rejected the contraptions.


Yes it does surprise me too - for a man who has rallied against the modernization and inevitable direction human society is taking, he is not opposed to modern methods when it benefits his beliefs.

While I disagree with a lot of what he stands for - specially his positions on womens & minority rights - I respect him for what he has done as a leader. More than anyone else I believe it was the pope that sped up the spread of democracy in the former communist countries starting with Poland, which was where the revolt against communism began. Had the Pope not publicly supported the solidarity movement it may not have succeeded as fast as it did.

Talking ill of someone, who means so much to so many and has basically done good, simply because you disagree with his stance does not serve any purpose.

I wish him a peaceful death without suffering.



Edit: jjzelinski my comments about speaking ill of the Pope were not directed at you. Just read my post and realized it came across like that!



 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
6,615
0
0
R.I.P.. but because this has been expected for so long I don't think it is the wrong time to start looking forward.

I hope they elect a Latin American or African this time.. would do good things for the church. Especially if they wanted a t
ransitional Pope like some have been talking about, just elect some 75 year old Latino and you've unified a large part of the church.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
I thought this was interesting:
I've been going through your archives and have come across several instances in which you seem to defend the validity of faith. Surely you can't be serious about this. I'm hoping it's some kind of weird test of your readers' intellectual integrity. If not, I implore you to reconsider. As an advocate of reason and the Enlightenment, you must see that religion is basically at odds with logic and man's rational faculty. Yet you appear to think that some of Pope John Paul's encyclicals are pro-reason. In part, perhaps?but overall, forget it. I can't understand how you justify this. Look, it's either reason or faith. Nothing between will work to the benefit of reason, only to the benefit of faith?which, please note, is defined as the absence of reason or evidence. Hence, one can tell up front that the Pope's ravings?or those of Pat Robertson, or Billy Graham, or the Archbishop of Canterbury, or the local Rabbi, or the Gaians, whomever?aren't worth the parchment they are printed on. Why bother? If you've seen one inconsistent religious font, you've seen 'em all.
?Reason Defender

ONCE AGAIN a reader gives me a golden opportunity to analyze an attitude all too common among many Secular Humanists and followers of Ayn Rand's popular Objectivist school of philosophical thought. To state it starkly, if you desire to improve your opportunity for knowledge, then the approach implied in your question is impractical, at best. As I'm sure you have observed, many people, perhaps most of them, tend to psychologically compartmentalize their lives. They are rational in some areas, but not necessarily in others. A physicist may be great at numbers, but lousy at love. A philosopher may be astute at metaphysics, but bad at epistemology. A student may be wonderful at spotting others' inconsistencies, but poor at spotting his own. The Pope may be good at advocating reason on principle, but inexpert at applying it certain cases.

However, if you refuse to even examine a man's position?especially a man with such far-reaching influence as Pope John Paul?on the grounds that he has been inconsistent on, say, metaphysical matters, then you will wastefully restrict your access to an enormous amount of human wisdom. Aristotle was an advocate of reason, but hardly consistent. Would you reject all of Aristotle because he was off base on some issues? I doubt it. It would needlessly trash the extremely valuable things that he said. If you wish to uphold objectivity and reason, then it is critical that you learn to pick and choose not only the best people, but also the best parts of what people say. Look for the good and the bad. The good, because you might learn something you didn't expect. The bad, because it is important to understand an enemy position (i.e., a position you consider unreasonable but potentially influential).

Yes, I know that many people reject thinkers like John Paul out of hand because they really believe it is the rationally moral thing to do. Their chain of thought typically goes like this: "I won't recommend anything he does because I don't want to morally endorse or sanction him." Well, if reason matters to you, then understand that this line of thinking is logically fallacious. It confuses the man with the ideas. They are far from the same. The essence of objective scholarship, one of our marvelous legacies of the Enlightenment, is to credit reasonable ideas no matter who thinks of them and regardless of his overall consistency. For instance, I frequently quote men such as Robert A. Heinlein, Alan Loy McGinnis, Thomas Sowell, Sun Tzu, and others. I do so because a particular way they put a thought helps clarify something for my readers and advances the causes of liberty, independence, optimism?and reason. That doesn't mean I think any of these men were or are godly paragons of consistency. It doesn't mean that I morally sanction their character. Maybe I do, maybe I don't; that requires a broader context. A man is much more than his openly stated ideas. He also holds a variety of implicit premises, which we can only detect by reference to his actions.

As I've watched this intolerance toward religious thinkers fester among Humanists and Objectivists, I've noted that they often reject men like John Paul not as much out of moral qualms, but out of laziness. Why? It is easier to brush off a man than to do the work of critically analyzing his position. It's simpler to dismiss people with a wave of the moral wand than it is to dissect and examine their ideas?and to suspend judgment until one has done so. For instance, what is the implication of the Pope's open advocacy of reason for understanding the nature of man? Is this position of so little consequence to the Catholic culture that we can sweep it aside like a ball of lint? No. The Pope heads the world's largest religion. His remarks in the encyclical "Veritatus Splendor," to take one example, are having profoundly positive effects for hundreds of millions of people. In many ways, "Veritatus" represents a break from the Church's recent past. It is a standing instruction to Church leaders and teachers to elevate reason to a level it has seldom enjoyed in modern times?especially when it comes to grasping the nature of man and his requirements. Are these not important issues? Are they not matters worthy of examination? If they are, is it not important to read and consider the words of their chief advocate in the Church, Pope John Paul? If you reject him out of hand because of his inconsistencies elsewhere?or, worse, simply because he is a "man of faith"?then all the pro-reason revolution in the Church and its positive consequences will pass you by. Ignorance of this type is a bad game.

I know you think that you are boldly standing for reason by dismissing all men of faith as illogical and shallow. In fact, you are not. You are violating a principle of rational scholarship and Enlightenment thinking: to consider ideas on their merits, regardless of who utters them. Perhaps you will reexamine your approach. The path you are on severely constricts the input available to your rational faculty.
http://www.objectiveamerican.com/toa/getbest.cfm?id=484
 

computerpro3

Senior member
Dec 19, 2003
658
0
76
You do know that condoms do NOT prevent spread of STD's, right? Google is your friend. OR sex ed classes, which I guess you missed.

When people say he has done great things, they are referring to being the primary architect behind the downfall of communism, carrying escaping prisoners from Auschwitz ON HIS BACK all the way to saftey because they could not walk, bridging the gap and all but eradicating the bad feelings between Christians and Jews, converting Russia, speaking out for peace, erasing animosity between Muslims and Christians, fighting in the rebellion against the Nazi's, being a brilliant man who spoke 12 languaes fluently and 48 in passing, who was far, far, far more intelligent than you.

Do your research before bashing the Christian faith, after all it is the most powerful, largest, and oldst instution in the history of the world. Currently numbering 4 times the amount of people living in the United States.
 

mwmorph

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2004
8,877
1
81
Originally posted by: computerpro3
You do know that condoms do NOT prevent spread of STD's, right? Google is your friend. OR sex ed classes, which I guess you missed.

When people say he has done great things, they are referring to being the primary architect behind the downfall of communism, carrying escaping prisoners from Auschwitz ON HIS BACK all the way to saftey because they could not walk, bridging the gap and all but eradicating the bad feelings between Christians and Jews, converting Russia, speaking out for peace, erasing animosity between Muslims and Christians, fighting in the rebellion against the Nazi's, being a brilliant man who spoke 12 languaes fluently and 48 in passing, who was far, far, far more intelligent than you.

Do your research before bashing the Christian faith, after all it is the most powerful, largest, and oldst instution in the history of the world. Currently numbering 4 times the amount of people living in the United States.


yeah, he was a great guy. one of the most liberal popes in a while. he wasn't afraid to ake chances to do something new.

r.i.p.:brokenheart:


even though i'm protestent, i am gonna miss him.
 

computerpro3

Senior member
Dec 19, 2003
658
0
76
my above post was meant to quote this, dunno why I can't edit

yeah, speaking against the use of condoms in africa for example , helping millions of people die of aids. could someone hand me a nobel price please?

the only bad thing about this guy finally kicking the bucket is that there will be another one after him.
 

computerpro3

Senior member
Dec 19, 2003
658
0
76
Originally posted by: crooked22
Originally posted by: cobalt
I think he knows that the next pope is going to be horrible and bring down the church, I know many of you might think of that as a happy day but you don't realize how many people are attached to their faith.

"...And so castles made of sand, melt into the sea, eventually."

And that applies to everything.

Im sure the papal cronies will try to keep him alive for as long as possible and sedated as possible. That will give them enough time to "settle any affairs"


Hasn't melted into the sea in the last 2005 years, might I remind you that quite literally it is the longest standing institution in the history of the world? About 10 times longer than the US, in fact.....
 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
6,615
0
0
You make a good point, computerpro, the longevity of the Catholic church itself is quite amazing. To criticize its atrocities does not hurt me as a Catholic, because any institution which holds the power this church has for two milleniums (millenia?) will no doubt have its share of corruption. Look at America, in just 200 years we've done some pretty horrible things. And we didn't even have to deal with some of the worst eras in human history as did the Catholic church.
 

wchou

Banned
Dec 1, 2004
1,137
0
0
Originally posted by: raildogg
This great Pope wants to remain alive as long as he could. What is wrong with that?

Some of you people will use any excuse to bash him and the Christian faith.

His time have come, it would be unfair to others. It's like saying I want to live forever but is not being realistic :roll:
 

wchou

Banned
Dec 1, 2004
1,137
0
0
Originally posted by: chrisms
Well I'll put my foot in my mouth.. the Pope refused to go to the hospital and looks as though he is accepting his fate. RIP John Paul II

Death is only the beginning, it is not the end. I'm sure we been through this many many times but most of us don't notice. I believe that the only way to a new life is through death. That's why no lives forever... You can preach all you like but it will get you no where other then sympathy from others.
 

Taejin

Moderator<br>Love & Relationships
Aug 29, 2004
3,270
0
0
Could I please speak to Pope John Paul?

He ded.

...Pope John Paaauuul?

ah tehll u he ded.

Does anyone here know Pope John Paul?

G-d dammit *leaves*
 

slyedog

Senior member
Jan 12, 2001
934
0
0
have you just found out that aidanjm is a dummy and likes to slobber his venom
on everything that is wrong. and to him the whole world is wrong. what an idiot
 
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