Possible coup in Turkey

[Oric]

A very good descriptive article from a friend of mine

There is a reason why many Turks get offended when a post mentions about a point that puts a concern to the side that opposes the coup, may it be Erdoğan, or someone else. The reason is the relative importance (for us, Turks) of such concerns as opposed to the importance and consequences of the coup. The coup attempt is like a “black hole”. It has infinite density, a mass much more that several solar systems with huge stars, combined. It is technically “infinity”. Any number, no matter how large it may be, is infinitely smaller than “infinity”. Turkey dealt (and is dealing) with something that is “infinity”. Whilst we assign an infinite importance to this, the concern from Europe and USA regarding that was “nothing”. Au contraire, the concerns were related to small asteroids (as we consider) or moons, maybe planets, that are all “finite”. We even consider them to be attempts to reduce (even dwarf) the perception of the “infinity”. The infinity importance is not about Erdoğan. It is not about AKP. The Istanbul rally against the coup was not for AKP. I understand that you do not understand this and insist on considering this as an issue with Erdoğan. Because your sources also insist on considering them that way. Coincidently (and righteously) it was the president and the parliament who ignited the opposition to the coup and saved the day. That makes them heroes? Yes. True, that doesn’t make them innocent from other malpractices. But do those malpractices change the fact that they led the way for saving the day? No. Is it the time for all Turks to side with the block that opposes and stops the coup? OF COURSE, YES! Because, that is the infinitely important thing.
I am personally against death penalty of all sorts. I hope it is never legalized anywhere on earth. But… ALWAYS talking about the death penalty, whereas NEVER mentioning about the mass murderers aiming against a whole country is like talking about large numbers and setting down infinity. Besides, even if it is realized, it would be for the leaders of the armed terrorists. I hope it never happens, no. But we all know that it is not aimed for all Gulen related people, right? Nonetheless, this is not the point, as I say. The situation is like this: “A ruthless serial killer is arrested while shooting to a cop. That cop stops the killer. All the neighbor is relieved. Suddenly European journalists arrive and start saying the cop should not hurt the wrists of the serial killer. Then the journalist also asks for a comfortable jail. Then the journalist starts complaining about the salt percentage of the served food in the jail. Then the journalist also…” Clearly this journalist either doesn’t understand the fatal threat of the killer for the society and how the society feels about him, or (s)he is not a friend of that society (maybe even an enemy?). I am accustomed to seeing the writings of these journalists in certain media. That is the media that you seem to follow (please check your coup/Turkey related posts (100% of them are nothing but insanely Erdoğan relating asteroids comparing to the huge black hole we consider).
Yes, we all consider the attempt to be an infinitely important terrorist attack to the existence of our country. And, no, we do not (all) relate our support to the governing party. For the time being, we do not care about finite things. And we are upset about the west caring about “nothing” but the finite things.
As for the title of this post: “Start caring about things that matter”. Yes, we care about things that matter. Presuming everyone cares about things that matter to them, what I see is inexistence of Turkey doesn’t matter to somebody.

 

[agent00f]

Still not true ... Erdogan did not show them anything. It is not disloyalty to Erdogan but to the nation. Remember that in 2013, in the Gezi Parkı (google if you want details) incident millions took to the streets against Erdogan and the police. Today not a single soul who were in those protests are speaking in favour of the organised coup bastards. It is not fear of Erdogan that there is a unity in the country, it is the unity against what is described in the above article. Unfortunately, if you still shake your head in disblief and say "Why do Turks blame us without proof ?" it is because you are presented with the facts first hand but you choose not to give credit because you don't read from your "safe" sources

Well, it's pretty clear that it's Erdogan's nation now so there's no need to make that distinction, and he just show what happens to people who are merely associated with disloyalty. His career makes for a pretty good case study for how to become a successful strongman, but to be fair Putin and many others came before to illustrate the path. Ferment discontent & constant imminent danger, blame foreigners, etc, etc.

Also, coups are basically a confidence game. Erdogan knows how this works, so he tells supporters to get into the streets to get shot for the cause while he's hiding safe and sound. Guess you gotta smash some eggs to make an omelet.

 

[werepossum]

At this point it's beyond doubt that Turkey is filled with Islamists, the clinically insane conspiracy buffs, and those all-too-few good people who really wish it weren't so. The United States really needs to get the fuck out of Turkey now before human wave attacks begin spontaneously occurring at American-hosting bases. There is zero to be gained by waiting around for another Iran-style "student uprising".

 

[Oric]

Blaming foreigners and uniting the nations against imminent dangers is a universal game. You have Russians, Chinese, ISIS, Al Qaeda, North Korea, Illegal Immigrants, BLM etc. You are not saying something that your nation is 100% temper-proof

he just show what happens to people who are merely associated with disloyalty

You are skim reading what I write ? I said millions of us stayed in the streets for weeks against the police firing tear gas and rubber bullets, against Erdogan and his oppresive tactics. We are disloyals but we have intellect and conscience and we have the facts & experiences that are part of our everyday lives to decide what actually happened.

Well, it's pretty clear

Pretty clear what ? What do you know ?

 

[Oric]

The United States really needs to get the fuck out of Turkey now before human wave attacks begin spontaneously occurring at American-hosting bases.

Yes get the fuck out if you are planning to launch another coup against our nation

Iranian style uprising

Mohammad Mosaddegh[a] (Persian: محمد مصدق‎‎; IPA: [mohæmˈmæd(-e) mosædˈdeɣ] ( listen);https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh#cite_note-2 16 June 1882 – 5 March 1967), was an Iranian politician. He was the democratically elected[1][2][3] Prime Minister of Iran from 1951 until 1953, when his government was overthrown in a coup d'état aided by the American Central Intelligence Agency and the British Secret Intelligence Service

 

[agent00f]

At this point it's beyond doubt that Turkey is filled with Islamists, the clinically insane conspiracy buffs, and those all-too-few good people who really wish it weren't so. The United States really needs to get the fuck out of Turkey now before human wave attacks begin spontaneously occurring at American-hosting bases. There is zero to be gained by waiting around for another Iran-style "student uprising".

It's really quite terrible they're becoming more like americans.

Blaming foreigners and uniting the nations against imminent dangers is a universal game. You have Russians, Chinese, ISIS, Al Qaeda, North Korea, Illegal Immigrants, BLM etc. You are not saying something that your nation is 100% temper-proof

You are skim reading what I write ? I said millions of us stayed in the streets for weeks against the police firing tear gas and rubber bullets, against Erdogan and his oppresive tactics. We are disloyals but we have intellect and conscience and we have the facts & experiences that are part of our everyday lives to decide what actually happened.

Yet he managed to skillfully turn that around pretty quick by aligning patriots against the others, huh? All credit to the man.

Pretty clear what ? What do you know ?

Enough history to see it repeating itself.

 

[Oric]

Enough history to see it repeating itself.

Please read the parts about USA covert operations and CIA assisted coups. There are dozens in the last 50 years. Even the 1980 coup in Turkey was an American one. Apply Occam's Razor to your logic and interpret your results. OK ?

 

[bshole]

More than 60% of the Turkish are drinking the kool-aid. They are being played. Notice Oric MY LEGIT SOURCE. This is what your president's spokesman is saying to the WESTERN press. Seems a bit different than the shit he is handing you.

Turkish leaders have been playing a double game with the notion of American involvement in the coup, sometimes encouraging the conspiracy theories publicly while privately assuring American officials that nothing has changed in the countries’ relationship.

Ibrahim Kalin, Mr. Erdogan’s spokesman, recently told reporters, “We don’t think that the U.S. has any involvement in the coup attempt.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/03/w...up-erdogan-fethullah-gulen-united-states.html

 

[Oric]

Your legit source, NYT, quoted a sentence of one its Turkish writers, Mustafa Akyol, who is the only person on planet earth to claim that Ibrahim Kalın said the following sentence that you quoted.

Here is Ibrahim Kalın's official English statement to the foreign press :

It would be a huge mistake for the U.S. and Europe to miss out and disregard this consensus. Most people in Turkey have the impression that the U.S. is harboring Gülen by letting him abuse the American legal system to his advantage. We are confident that the U.S. government will collaborate with Ankara on Gülen's extradition. Gülen is a national security threat to Turkey and a dangerous criminal for the U.S. There are already a number of investigations into Gülen schools, visa fraud and money laundering in the U.S. If Gülen is allowed to use the American system in one way or another, many will see this as support for him - a course of action that will only fuel anti-American sentiment in Turkey.

Read between the lines : We will hold the US accountable if Gulen is not extridited.

Link : http://www.dailysabah.com/columns/i.../new-political-consensus-after-coup-in-turkey

More than 60% of the Turkish are drinking the kool-aid.

How did you arrive at that percentage, it is actually around 90%

It is equally interesting for me to see,you defending USA and claiming "we can never be involved (nod approvingly to the coup'ers) in a coup in another country". History says otherwise. Why are you so anxious to prove it for this case. Please elaborate.

 

[sontakke]

May be because if CIA were involved, they would have done a lot better job? Could you provide a list of failed coup by CIA vs successful ones?

All kidding aside, when the entire world tells you that you are wrong, you should probably try to self-evaluate your perspective first.

 

[bshole]

It is equally interesting for me to see,you defending USA and claiming "we can never be involved (nod approvingly to the coup'ers) in a coup in another country". History says otherwise. Why are you so anxious to prove it for this case. Please elaborate.

Oh I am sure America could have been involved. I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt about that. Unlike you however, I require FUCKING evidence before I believe things. All the evidence that I am aware of is indicative of NO American involvement whatsoever. I have asked you MULTIPLE FUCKING times to present the evidence. I AM OPEN TO BEING CONVINCED WITH EVIDENCE.

Have you so little interest in truth that you can't be bothered to do the barest minimum of investigation? Why do you even bother posting here? The entire point of this forum is to present ideas and convince other people of the truth of those ideas using evidence.

 

[Jaskalas]

This whole thing stinks.

I want a United States investigation into General Campbell. I do not have any sources speaking towards that. Not sure our government would like to admit such things, but our reporters should be pressing them for answers.

The only thing we can be certain of is that we do not have the truth here. Our government needs to provide it.

 

[bshole]

This whole thing stinks.

I want a United States investigation into General Campbell. I do not have any sources speaking towards that. Not sure our government would like to admit such things, but our reporters should be pressing them for answers.

The only thing we can be certain of is that we do not have the truth here. Our government needs to provide it.

And if it turns out that Campbell was indeed not involved in any way, the Turkish government and certain Turkish media outlets should be held CIVILLY liable. If what has been asserted is not true, then it is libel of the worst and most despicable kind and the offending parties must be held accountable. I would love to see Campbell sue because his reputation has been smeared and damaged. Put this shit in front of an international jury.

On the other hand, if Campbell was involved, he should be held CRIMINALLY liable. It would represent an act of treason on his part, if he did it.

I notice that the Turkish government is not demanding that Campbell be extradited so I highly suspect that they have absolute fuck-all indicating Campbell's involvement and are just blowing smoke up the collective ass of the Turkish people.

 

[agent00f]

Please read the parts about USA covert operations and CIA assisted coups. There are dozens in the last 50 years. Even the 1980 coup in Turkey was an American one. Apply Occam's Razor to your logic and interpret your results. OK ?

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the US is somehow responsible. How exactly is deifying Erdogan in return an appropriate response?

The clever strongman aspirant begs the question.

 

[Jaskalas]

Turkey signals joint defense plan with Russia

Turkey and Russia will establish a joint military, intelligence and diplomacy mechanism
“Turkey wanted to cooperate with NATO members up to this point,” the minister said. “But the results we got did not satisfy us. Therefore, it is natural to look for other options. But we don’t see this as a move against NATO.”

The world got a lot more interesting with Turkey playing both sides.
Are NATO members expected to share intel with Russia?

 

[Oric]

May be because if CIA were involved, they would have done a lot better job? Could you provide a list of failed coup by CIA vs successful ones?

1948
Italy — The CIA corrupts democratic elections in Italy, where Italian communists threaten to win the elections. The CIA buys votes, broadcasts propaganda, threatens and beats up opposition leaders, and infiltrates and disrupts their organizations. It works — the communists are defeated.
1953
Iran – CIA overthrows the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in a military coup, after he threatened to nationalize British oil. The CIA replaces him with a dictator, the Shah of Iran, whose secret police, SAVAK, is as brutal as the Gestapo.
1954
Guatemala — CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.
1954-1958
North Vietnam — CIA officer Edward Lansdale spends four years trying to overthrow the communist government of North Vietnam, attempts to legitimize a tyrannical puppet regime in South Vietnam, headed by Ngo Dinh Diem. These efforts fail to win the hearts and minds of the South Vietnamese because the Diem government is opposed to true democracy, land reform and poverty reduction measures. The CIA’s continuing failure results in escalating American intervention, culminating in the Vietnam War.
1956
Hungary — Radio Free Europe incites Hungary to revolt by broadcasting Khruschev’s Secret Speech, in which he denounced Stalin. It also hints that American aid will help the Hungarians fight. This aid fails to materialize as Hungarians launch a doomed armed revolt, which only invites a major Soviet invasion. The conflict kills 7,000 Soviets and 30,000 Hungarians.
1957-1973
Laos — The CIA carries out approximately one coup per year trying to nullify Laos’ democratic elections. The problem is the Pathet Lao, a leftist group with enough popular support to be a member of any coalition government. In the late 50s, the CIA even creates an “Armee Clandestine” of Asian mercenaries to attack the Pathet Lao. After the CIA’s army suffers numerous defeats, the U.S. starts bombing, dropping more bombs on Laos than all the U.S. bombs dropped in World War II. A quarter of all Laotians will eventually become refugees, many living in caves.
1959
Haiti — The U.S. military helps “Papa Doc” Duvalier become dictator of Haiti. He creates his own private police force, the “Tonton Macoutes,” who terrorize the population with machetes. They will kill over 100,000 during the Duvalier family reign. The U.S. does not protest their dismal human rights record.
1961
The Bay of Pigs — The CIA sends 1,500 Cuban exiles to invade Castro’s Cuba. But “Operation Mongoose” fails, due to poor planning, security and backing. The planners had imagined that the invasion will spark a popular uprising against Castro -– which never happens. A promised American air strike also never occurs. This is the CIA’s first public setback, causing President Kennedy to fire CIA Director Allen Dulles
Ecuador — The CIA-backed military forces the democratically elected President Jose Velasco to resign. Vice President Carlos Arosemana replaces him; the CIA fills the now vacant vice presidency with its own man.
Congo (Zaire) — The CIA assassinates the democratically elected Patrice Lumumba. However, public support for Lumumba’s politics runs so high that the CIA cannot clearly install his opponents in power. Four years of political turmoil follow.
1963
Dominican Republic — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup. The CIA installs a repressive, right-wing junta.
Ecuador — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows President Arosemana, whose independent (not socialist) policies have become unacceptable to Washington. A military junta assumes command, cancels the 1964 elections, and begins abusing human rights.
1964
Brazil — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart. The junta that replaces it will, in the next two decades, become one of the most bloodthirsty in history. General Castelo Branco will create Latin America’s first death squads, or bands of secret police who hunt down “communists” for torture, interrogation and murder. Often these “communists” are no more than Branco’s political opponents. Later it is revealed that the CIA trains the death squads.
1965
Indonesia — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Sukarno with a military coup. The CIA has been trying to eliminate Sukarno since 1957, using everything from attempted assassination to sexual intrigue, for nothing more than his declaring neutrality in the Cold War. His successor, General Suharto, will massacre between 500,000 to 1 million civilians accused of being “communist.” The CIA supplies the names of countless suspects.
Dominican Republic — A popular rebellion breaks out, promising to reinstall Juan Bosch as the country’s elected leader. The revolution is crushed when U.S. Marines land to uphold the military regime by force. The CIA directs everything behind the scenes.
Greece — With the CIA’s backing, the king removes George Papandreous as prime minister. Papandreous has failed to vigorously support U.S. interests in Greece.
Congo (Zaire) — A CIA-backed military coup installs Mobutu Sese Seko as dictator. The hated and repressive Mobutu exploits his desperately poor country for billions.
1967
Greece — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the government two days before the elections. The favorite to win was George Papandreous, the liberal candidate. During the next six years, the “reign of the colonels” — backed by the CIA — will usher in the widespread use of torture and murder against political opponents. When a Greek ambassador objects to President Johnson about U.S. plans for Cypress, Johnson tells him: “Fuck your parliament and your constitution.”
1968
Bolivia — A CIA-organized military operation captures legendary guerilla Che Guevara. The CIA wants to keep him alive for interrogation, but the Bolivian government executes him to prevent worldwide calls for clemency.
1970
Cambodia — The CIA overthrows Prince Sahounek, who is highly popular among Cambodians for keeping them out of the Vietnam War. He is replaced by CIA puppet Lon Nol, who immediately throws Cambodian troops into battle. This unpopular move strengthens once minor opposition parties like the Khmer Rouge, which achieves power in 1975 and massacres millions of its own people.
1971
Bolivia — After half a decade of CIA-inspired political turmoil, a CIA-backed military coup overthrows the leftist President Juan Torres. In the next two years, dictator Hugo Banzer will have over 2,000 political opponents arrested without trial, then tortured, raped and executed.
Haiti — “Papa Doc” Duvalier dies, leaving his 19-year old son “Baby Doc” Duvalier the dictator of Haiti. His son continues his bloody reign with full knowledge of the CIA.
1973
Chile — The CIA overthrows and assassinates Salvador Allende, Latin America’s first democratically elected socialist leader. The problems begin when Allende nationalizes American-owned firms in Chile. ITT offers the CIA $1 million for a coup (reportedly refused). The CIA replaces Allende with General Augusto Pinochet, who will torture and murder thousands of his own countrymen in a crackdown on labor leaders and the political left.
1975
Australia — The CIA helps topple the democratically elected, left-leaning government of Prime Minister Edward Whitlam. The CIA does this by giving an ultimatum to its Governor-General, John Kerr. Kerr, a longtime CIA collaborator, exercises his constitutional right to dissolve the Whitlam government. The Governor-General is a largely ceremonial position appointed by the Queen; the Prime Minister is democratically elected. The use of this archaic and never-used law stuns the nation.
1979
Iran — The CIA fails to predict the fall of the Shah of Iran, a longtime CIA puppet, and the rise of Muslim fundamentalists who are furious at the CIA’s backing of SAVAK, the Shah’s bloodthirsty secret police. In revenge, the Muslims take 52 Americans hostage in the U.S. embassy in Tehran.
Afghanistan — The Soviets invade Afghanistan. The CIA immediately begins supplying arms to any faction willing to fight the occupying Soviets. Such indiscriminate arming means that when the Soviets leave Afghanistan, civil war will erupt. Also, fanatical Muslim extremists now possess state-of-the-art weaponry. One of these is Sheik Abdel Rahman, who will become involved in the World Trade Center bombing in New York.
El Salvador — An idealistic group of young military officers, repulsed by the massacre of the poor, overthrows the right-wing government. However, the U.S. compels the inexperienced officers to include many of the old guard in key positions in their new government. Soon, things are back to “normal” — the military government is repressing and killing poor civilian protesters. Many of the young military and civilian reformers, finding themselves powerless, resign in disgust.
Nicaragua — Anastasios Samoza II, the CIA-backed dictator, falls. The Marxist Sandinistas take over government, and they are initially popular because of their commitment to land and anti-poverty reform. Samoza had a murderous and hated personal army called the National Guard. Remnants of the Guard will become the Contras, who fight a CIA-backed guerilla war against the Sandinista government throughout the 1980s.
1980
Turkey — "Our boys did it"
1989
Panama — The U.S. invades Panama to overthrow a dictator of its own making, General Manuel Noriega. Noriega has been on the CIA’s payroll since 1966, and has been transporting drugs with the CIA’s knowledge since 1972. By the late 80s, Noriega’s growing independence and intransigence have angered Washington… so out he goes.
1990
Haiti — Competing against 10 comparatively wealthy candidates, leftist priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide captures 68 percent of the vote. After only eight months in power, however, the CIA-backed military deposes him. More military dictators brutalize the country, as thousands of Haitian refugees escape the turmoil in barely seaworthy boats. As popular opinion calls for Aristide’s return, the CIA begins a disinformation campaign painting the courageous priest as mentally unstable.
1993
Haiti — The chaos in Haiti grows so bad that President Clinton has no choice but to remove the Haitian military dictator, Raoul Cedras, on threat of U.S. invasion. The U.S. occupiers do not arrest Haiti’s military leaders for crimes against humanity, but instead ensure their safety and rich retirements. Aristide is returned to power only after being forced to accept an agenda favorable to the country’s ruling class.

This is just a 45 year summary you can find on the internet ...

All kidding aside, when the entire world tells you that you are wrong, you should probably try to self-evaluate your perspective first.

Define entire world and define exactly on what issue I am wrong ..

 

[Oric]

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the US is somehow responsible. How exactly is deifying Erdogan in return an appropriate response?

The clever strongman aspirant begs the question.

Who is deifying Erdogan ? He has one of the most fierce opposition against him. However, domestic politics are meaningless for a while when one coup attempt against an elected government takes place, because in his position he represents the Turkish State and will of the people. Although I don't like him a bit, I support him to go all the way to clean the filth. This is not deifying, you can call this "nationalism".

 

[Oric]

I have asked you MULTIPLE FUCKING times to present the evidence. I AM OPEN TO BEING CONVINCED WITH EVIDENCE

OK Ma'am ...

I have invited you to common sense a few times. First of all, in the heat of a force Major event, the common folk like us do not have access to signed evidence, those evidence are in the hands of the state who are negotiating behind the scenes with the other parties. Do you honestly think that the long list of CIA operations in the history were documented 2 weeks after they were executed ? No, they were not, but the documented truth comes out sooner or later.

For the time being we have to go with the signs and behaviours.

What do we have documented / seen ?

1. Gulen's organization within the State and Military is well documented. The whole Turkish politics, judiciary and business scene has faced a coordinated take over, which speeded up after 2011. As the courts progress, I can/will post links to English translations, if you are interested

2. Response to requests for Gulen's extradition : It is an uphill battle against an unwilling bureucracy, i doubt that US will let Gulen go easily. It is naive to think that US State did not know of his operations and legacy. Just being the housekeeper of the mastermind is a strong indication of US involvement and support.

3. General Campbell's statements : Especially this, "They are taking into custody, the Officers that are close to us". USA is a long term ally to Turkey, still it is strange that he can classify the officers as being close to USA or not ...

4. Incirlik (NATO base), being the center of logistics and coordination during the coup

5. US Administrations initial response : "We want order and peace in Turkey" (something equivalent to this) - Not "We are in support of democracy and the elected government"

6. Lack of Intelligence support : Hey, there is something funny going on in your strategic ally. Why don't you share & warn

7. Hostile reporting on the US Media : Focus on the astroids when there is a black hole. Which is more important, 240 civilians dead by bullets, bombs or crashed by tanks, or a few beaten up soldiers ? Just an example ...

As a summary, there is lot to explain on the US side, if innocent.

 

[Ventanni]

1. Still doesn't prove anything the US is involved with. Gulen is your guy. Most Americans don't even know who he is.

2. This is a legal matter, and this is no different to many requests for extradition. Matters like this can take years. It proves absolutely nothing of our involvement.

3. Or that they're taking into custody officers that have been traditionally close to the US because we're being scapegoated for this?

4. There is a huge battle going on in Manbij, Syria right now. The US Air Force is heavily supporting the Kurds battling ISIS right below your southern border. So yes, there is going to be A LOT of traffic going out of this air base.

5. Being the leading democratic nation of the world, do you expect us to say anything different? This has been our schtik for the last 250 years.

6. This really doesn't prove anything. Your state matters are your own state matters, not ours. And on top of that, maybe our state department did warn yours? The fact is, neither you nor I know the actual facts here, so you can't present this as fact.

7. Let's be fair here, the top headlines are chosen to what gets clicks and ad revenue. Unlike Turkey, our media isn't controlled by the government, and our people care more about Dancing With the Stars than the revolutions and wars going on in the Middle East. Sorry, but it's true.

So in summary, you have yet to provide anything of substance for the US to have to explain. This continues to look like a typical totalitarian takeover. I hope that koolaid tastes good.

 

[Jaskalas]

Oric, thank you for continuing the discussion with us. Especially keeping your calm when faced with such a hostile tone. Most of us would rise to anger and respond poorly. You have remained focused and on point. You are a positive contributor by raising the quality of this discussion.

To everyone else, if you wish to argue the truth of these allegations I will tell you that it is not for us to decide. Only our Administration, our government, can investigate and respond with authority. If you want to refute what Erdogan says on Turkish media, then show me our government's direct response.

What we need is an investigation to provide answers raised by the allegations. If the Coup was not sanctioned by President Obama then any of our men involved committed treason. There is an element of betrayal within NATO, the US military, and the CIA. Committing treason and/or acts of war is an important issue. Turkey aside, the American public needs answers.

If you still want to argue the truth, remember this. Words Matter. "You're not just responsible for what you say. You are responsible for what people hear". Erdogan speaks directly to the Turkish people. They hear his words, they hear the allegations against us. If we do not provide a suitable answer for them, why shouldn't they believe Erdogan?

Speaking of which, the latest in this saga:
Erdogan tells USA to choose "Gulen terror group" or Turkey

 

[bshole]

To everyone else, if you wish to argue the truth of these allegations I will tell you that it is not for us to decide. Only our Administration, our government, can investigate and respond with authority. If you want to refute what Erdogan says on Turkish media, then show me our government's direct response.

What we need is an investigation to provide answers raised by the allegations. If the Coup was not sanctioned by President Obama then any of our men involved committed treason. There is an element of betrayal within NATO, the US military, and the CIA. Committing treason and/or acts of war is an important issue. Turkey aside, the American public needs answers.

If you still want to argue the truth, remember this. Words Matter. "You're not just responsible for what you say. You are responsible for what people hear". Erdogan speaks directly to the Turkish people. They hear his words, they hear the allegations against us. If we do not provide a suitable answer for them, why shouldn't they believe Erdogan?

Speaking of which, the latest in this saga:
Erdogan tells USA to choose "Gulen terror group" or Turkey

The problem with all of this, is that they are vague allegations and assertions. How does one respond to that? Proving a negative is impossible. AT BEST, America can address specific accusations and the evidence behind them. I believe there is NO evidence behind any of the assertions... NONE. If there were, there would NO reason for Turkey not to release it. For example, after 911, they couldn't get the evidence that condemned terrorists out fast enough. They didn't hide the evidence in any way. I can't think of a single legit reason for the Turkish government to hide the smoking guns. Hell it would really pump up their people and be pure propaganda gold. Ergodan is a political genius. It stretches my credulity that he would sit on evidence.

So if Turkey has no evidence (which I highly suspect) what exactly would a hearing accomplish? There would be no incriminating evidence to discuss. If there were evidence, then I could see some merit in your idea. I would like to see General Campbell sue the Turkish government/press for libel/slander. They accused him of a heinous crime with NO CORROBORATING EVIDENCE and that cannot go unanswered.

 

[agent00f]

Who is deifying Erdogan ? He has one of the most fierce opposition against him. However, domestic politics are meaningless for a while when one coup attempt against an elected government takes place, because in his position he represents the Turkish State and will of the people. Although I don't like him a bit, I support him to go all the way to clean the filth. This is not deifying, you can call this "nationalism".

So you initially didn't even like him, but through this nationalism now support wholesale extra-judicial cleansing of anyone associate with some supposedly foreign agent group.

Seems like everything is working according to plan.

 

[sontakke]

In your long list of so called CIA "failures", the only one which really stands out as a failure is Afghanistan. In Iran the failure was anticipation of events (just like what happened in your country last month). In almost all the cases that *you* documented, where CIA interfered, it obtained the results its bosses wanted.

AND THAT WAS MY POINT. I am not at all arguing with you that CIA does not have documented history of interfering or directly provoking regime changes all over the world. That fact is NOT in dispute.

But if CIA were involved in this fake coup, it would have succeeded as your own list amply proves that assertion.

 

[Jaskalas]

So you initially didn't even like him, but through this nationalism now support wholesale extra-judicial cleansing of anyone associate with some supposedly foreign agent group.

Gulen's "FETO" followers are Turks. It's a large Islamic faction inside Turkey that has been working to overthrow Erdogan for a long time. Tensions were rising for several years until finally they tried force and violence via the Coup. Foreign "agents" are the connections FETO established with NATO. We do not know the extent of who corroborated or by how much. It seems reasonable to assume FETO may have gotten in close and friendly with NATO to help assist them with legitimacy after the Coup.

It's a world of difference if FETO's relationship with NATO was on a personal level with a few key members stationed inside Turkey, or if there was any official support or legitimacy provided. It's possible General Campbell and/or NATO is only guilty by association.

 

[Guurn]

How can there be actual opposition to a fake coup? I work with no small number of Turks, most of which have family in Turkey and among them there isn't even a discussion about what happened. It was Erdogan having a fake coup to increase his control and get the secular factions out of positions of power. This includes educators. Gulen is just a guy with opinions and followers who happens to reside in the US. If they get the votes in a democracy then they get the offices. Why is that scary? I'm pretty sure that there is no way anyone can mount a serious run at Erdogan with him shutting down the other parties abilities to advertise their candidates.