I'm talking about this
http://projectcensored.org/11-the-media-can-legally-lie/
Ya, bending the truth happens all the time too
In fairness it's not necessarily lies per se, just selective framing of reality.
For example, if a western country goes and kills several hundred thousand muslims it's a legitimate military action, but if muslims kill a few dozen westerners it's the fall of civilization at the hands of barbarians.
The soldiers involved aren't necessarily "pro-coup," as described by a few posters here. Most were probably just woken up at midnight in their barracks and told to go "secure the bridges," or something, not really knowing what was going on. Few seemed involved in any of the aggression, against the police or other govt, and the violent interactions with civilians was inevitable when they were all called by the mosques and erdogan himself to confront the military.
I know as little about Turkish politics as most (?), but caught an interesting comment on "social media" yesterday, that is that the Turkish army NEVER in history raised weapons against their own peoples.
As I understand it, the Turkish army is not under gvt orders in Turkey but sort-of independent, they saw it as their duty to coup to restore a more secular gvt.
If this is indeed so, then it makes sense that they were not "involved in any aggression" and at the first evidence that the coup failed surrendered WITHOUT FIGHTING THEIR OWN PEOPLE, not (as some on social media commented) because "they are weak" but because they wanted to oust the regime and NOT cause senseless blood shed among their own peoples. The quick surrender and no resistance was therefore the logical and actual honorable thing to do.
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despite this, I am not one of those people screaming "false flag" whenever something happens, but here this is well possible. As some commented, this coup seemed relatively halfass, the ridiculous "low flying jets" over Ankara (entirely pointless, literally a "show" - that's what some would expect with a false-flag operation)
But so or so, yes we can safely assume that most of those soldiers, many probably not older than 18 or 19 just followed orders, like soldiers do.
The entire thing DOES stink, no question.
The Turkish military perceived itself as the guardian of Kemalist ideology, the official state ideology, especially of the secular aspects of Kemalism. The TAF still maintains an important degree of influence over the decision making process regarding issues related to Turkish national security, albeit decreased in the past decades, via the National Security Council.
After the Republic of Turkey was founded in 1923, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk prohibited the political activities of officers in active service with the Military Penal Code numbered 1632 and dated 22 May 1930 (Askeri Ceza Kanunu).[46]
However, after the coups d'état in 1960, the Millî Birlik Komitesi (National Unity Committee) established the Inner Service Act of the Turkish Armed Forces (Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri İç Hizmet Kanunu) on 4 January 1961 to legitimize their military interventions in politics. In subsequent coup d'états and coup d'état attempts, they showed reasons to justify their political activities especially with the article 35 and 85 of this act
The military had a record of intervening in politics, removing elected governments four times in the past. Indeed, it assumed power for several periods in the latter half of the 20th century. It executed three coups d'état: in 1960 (May 27 coup), in 1971 (March 12 coup), and in 1980 (September 12 coup). Following the 1960 coup d'état, the military executed the first democratically elected prime minister in Turkey, Adnan Menderes, in 1961.[48] Most recently, it maneuvered the removal of an Islamist prime minister, Necmettin Erbakan, in 1997 (known as the February 28 memorandum).[4] Contrary to outsider expectations, the Turkish populace was not uniformly averse to coups; many welcomed the ejection of governments they perceived as unconstitutional.
Does seem likely to be some kind of a false flag operation. Nothing about it made any sense, except to support this proposition.
2130 on a Friday night, with everyone on the road/street or otherwise outside? Nobody going after Erdogan? I saw him, in real time, on flightradar circling around the sea of marmara while military jets reportedly flying around just across from him. I thought maybe it wasn't really his plane, but the announcement of him landing coincided with flightradar's tracking, and he even remarked at the press conference that there were jets flying above the airport supposedly "targeting" him, suggesting that he should have been vulnerable in the air.
His immediate announcement that it was a "gift from god," enabling him to "cleanse the military." His subsequent removal of members of the judiciary as well, which can't have had anything to do with it.
And yeah, the military is apparently constitutionally separated from the government. Other interesting info I found on wiki:
Pro-coup soldier being tortured.
Removed image.
I have made peace with it and do not suffer psychologically as I've come to accept that nothing is and ever will be as I wish in this country.
I know I'm invoking Godwins rule here,but this whole thing looks straight out of Hitlers playbook with the Reichstag fire.
ALthough there are lots of conspiracy theories about a self made coup, it is not so. Fetullah Gulen's Gulenist movement had infiltrated the army like the judiciary system and he had sleeping followers promoted to General ranks. They were going to get retired in August anyway so they tried their last chance and did not get support from the rest of the army. Although all these events play in the hands of Erdogan, Gulenists were a secret and a more dangerous organization to Turkey then Erdogan anyway. Everybody is sure that he(Gulen) is a CIA project by the way (As he is enjoying himself in USA for the last 16 years). Well, at least the neocons loved Gulen, this is a blow to their side.
Erdogan has had 13 years to cleanse the military of opposition. Maybe only a small and desperate faction remained loyal to the secular Turkish constitution. They are now clearly removed and the only thing between Turkey becoming an Islamic State is the wave of Erdogan's hand.
It's over for the prospects of an EU Turkey.
And they even threaten their membership in NATO by threatening war against the US for a 75 year old exile. Heh... quite a bit of madness and violence, I'm so sorry Turkey that you must now suffer a 100 year setback in policy and social progress. Madmen are on the march.
It is a crusade against people who don't even want to defend themselves.
As I have said in the Nice thread, Charles Martel would be ashamed of his people.
The coup attempt that saw the Turkish state plunged into crisis has come at precisely the wrong time for Ankara. Just over the border in Iraq and Syria, critical challenges are mounting, as Turkey is drawn deeper into the fight to contain the Islamic State. Internally, Turkey is combating its own domestic Kurdish militant movement, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). Because the coup emerged from within certain divisions of the military, the government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his Justice and Development Party (AKP) must now engage in heavy purges of the armed forces. This will make it difficult for Ankara to use the military as an instrument of policy and national strategy. The coup has been put down, but the aftershocks could hamstring Turkey for a long time to come.
A notable minority of the Turkish military leadership supported the coup. Although the plot had been in the works for some time, the conspirators were pushed to act rapidly when they became aware of an impending crackdown during the Aug. 1 military rotation, which would have resulted in some conspirators forced into retirement. Among the plotters were factions from three separate Turkish armies: the 1st Army, the 2nd Army and the 3rd Army. The plot also extended to a number of Turkish Air Force units. On July 15, the coup planners mobilized aviation and armor units in a coordinated surprise operation while President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was vacationing in the southwestern city of Bodrum.
When Erdogan finally managed to make it to Istanbul by airplane, he went on television and alleged the coup plot leaders were affiliated with the Gulenist movement, led by exiled opposition leader Fethullah Gulen. Gulen issued a statement denying this and condemning the coup, but that will not stop Erdogan from purging the military of Gulenist remnants. Many of the coup leaders reportedly have ties to the movement, including former air force chief Akin Ozturk, Col. Muharrem Kose, and Ozturk's son-in-law, Halkan Karakus, a helicopter pilot. In addition to over 2,800 soldiers, the Turkish government has arrested high-ranking active-duty officers. Now in detention are 2nd Army commander Gen. Adem Huduti, the 2nd Army executive officer and Malatya Garrison commander, Avni Angun, and 3rd Army commander Erdal Ozturk.
Erdogan and his supporters have long been paranoid about a potential military coup — Turkey has had four since 1960. The president will now implement a swift and forceful crackdown, which could easily escalate into an outright purge. Any member of the Turkish armed forces with even a tangential link to the Gulenist movement may face arrest.
This has happened before. The aftermath of the Ergenekon anti-government plot and "Operation Sledgehammer," an alleged plan by factions within the Turkish military against the AKP dating back to 2003, led to just such a crackdown. The government arrested almost 400 military personnel, including retired officers. The detainees then faced prosecution for plotting a coup. Although the vast majority were eventually acquitted, years of trials and mistrust eroded the Turkish military's confidence and weakened its combat effectiveness.
The crackdown following the July 15 coup will further hinder the military's capabilities. It will erode morale and lessen fighting cohesion. The arrest and imprisonment of combat leaders as well as quartermaster and military logistics administrators will increase disorganization and cause confusion among the ranks. Training schedules will be thrown into disarray as routine exercises are postponed or canceled. Mistrust will spread. Planning for military operations will become more difficult as the government reforms its command and control structures. The government might try to ameliorate some of these problems by restoring military personnel previously ousted by the Gulenists themselves, but this will not happen quickly.
This could not come at a worse time. The Turkish military is heavily engaged in fighting the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) and entangled in Syria and Iraq. A military weakened in the aftermath of a failed coup will present Ankara with fewer tools to handle these challenges. The much-touted possibility of a Turkish military push into Syria is now too risky. This is also true of an expanded Turkish military presence in Iraq, as the push to drive the Islamic State from Mosul gears up. Turkish operations against the PKK may also suffer, though it is unlikely that they will grind to a complete halt.
Turkey's military incoherence will also complicate regional efforts by other powers. U.S. efforts against the Islamic State rely heavily on Turkey as a base for air operations. Washington also relies on Turkey to cut off the logistical lines to the extremist group. With Ankara distracted, support for its rebel proxies in Syria may also wane. This would weaken an already beleaguered rebel movement. For the Kurdish People's Protection Units in Syria, Turkish infighting could provide an opening to expand and connect Kurdish-controlled territorial pockets.
On paper, Turkey's military appears one of the most powerful in the region. But low morale and dissent often reveal the cracks in a military's perceived strength. These hidden weaknesses are often masked by massive troop numbers and modern equipment, only becoming clear during mutinies and coups. The Turkish military will now need to turn inward to deal with the disruptive effects of the attempted coup — and the threat this coup posed to the ruling party. It will take years for Turkey's armed forces to recover. These are years that Turkey does not have. Instability in the region is only deepening, and Turkey desperately needs to help contain this chaos while building up its own position.
Erdogan has had 13 years to cleanse the military of opposition. Maybe only a small and desperate faction remained loyal to the secular Turkish constitution. They are now clearly removed and the only thing between Turkey becoming an Islamic State is the wave of Erdogan's hand.
It's over for the prospects of an EU Turkey.
And they even threaten their membership in NATO by threatening war against the US for a 75 year old exile. Heh... quite a bit of madness and violence, I'm so sorry Turkey that you must now suffer a 100 year setback in policy and social progress. Madmen are on the march.
Last, the rebel F16s were fueled by two tanker planes that took of from Incirlik US base. It is not a 75 year old man issue, there has been serious back up and intervention to Turkish politics. This is no joke.
Unless it can pre proven otherwise I'm suspecting that the rebels refueled themselves using Turkey's KC-135s that are based at Incirlik. Also it's not a US base but a Turkish one that we use along with the Turkish Air Force.
Good, so it is Turkey's sovereign right to shut down the operations at the base ... (Although that halt has been lifted since yesterday, U.S. operations on ISIS resume).
Dude, that is totally unfair. Oric has always been very reasonable - more so that most of us. I'm as hard on Islamicists as is anyone, and Oric is no Islamicist. You owe him an apology.Yeah, right...
Oric isn't in the majority, rest assured. The military has been protecting Turkey from people like him for 80 years.
I suspect you are correct.If that was a Military coup then im the Pope of Rome.
This seams like it was a well orchestrated "play" from the beginning to make Erdogan stronger inside Turkey. We will witness the next months how much stronger Erdogan will be. This "coup" will have exactly the opposite effect than what a real military coup would have made on the political structure of the country.
Instead, now the Politicians will become even stronger and they will have the people celebrating on top of that. People will celebrate a democratic victory over the "Military coup" and at the same time Erdogan will be more powerful and be able to completely rule with less and less public rights.
My best wishes to neighbors
The EU has a mechanism for countries to leave, but none for a nation to be kicked out. Same with NATO. However, the EU does NOT want Turkey, and Turkey is not a member. The USA tried for decades to get Turkey admitted to the EU, to no avail - they used to be considered one of our best allies in Europe, behind only the UK and Denmark. I can't help but wonder if there would even be an Erdogan administration had we succeeded.2,745 judges & prosecutors dismissed after this failed coup of a dictator, yup democracy is alive and well in Turkey...
Can't believe the EU wants Turkey inside, it's almost like they want to implode.
Well said.Not what im saying,
Im simple saying that we westerners should protect our western way of life and our western values but we shouldnt impose them to others outside of our territories.
Trying to impose western democracy, western civil rights, western values and western law etc etc for example to Afghanistan/Iraq or any other Middle East/Asia countries is wrong. Let them have their own way of life and values in their countries.
But also, no tolerance on ideas, values and actions that are in direct violation of our way of life and values within our countries.
Democracy lets everyone speak their mind, but you also have to respect the Democratic rules. Democracy is freedom but you also have to respect its rules if you want to be free.
So, as westerners living in Democratic societies we dont impose to others not only inside our countries but also outside of our countries. Democracy is freedom but you also have to protect Democracy and its values in order to be free.
It is a direct violation of Democratic values and rules encourage/urge Muslim immigrants to have babies with Europeans in order to conquer their countries. Any one in violation of the Democratic values and rules should be immediately expel from EU and never be allowed to return. We have open borders but we also protect our borders.
Thanks for your insight. Hope you get out safely before the boom falls, brother, as it doesn't look like Turkey is going to be safe much longer for anyone not enthusiastically toeing the government line.*Pro*-coup soldier who probably was just following orders fearing that not doing so would extend his compulsory military service or send him to, get ready for this, Disko. Disko is a short name for Disiplin Koğuşu (Discipline Ward), in which you are fed shitty food, left in the dark 23 hours a day, constantly yelled at and forced to do shitty tasks such as scrubbing the toilets 10 times a day. I know how it is because I was sentenced to 1 week in Disko for taking it slow when a staff sergeant ordered me to clean up pine needles at a forest before a general showed up for inspection.
I hate Erdogan and if there was a button to kill him and all his supporters at once, I would push it without a second of doubt but Turkey has so many major problems from all angles, I see it as a failed state that is doomed to go into civil war.
Erdoganists are f*cked up.
Gulenists are f*cked up.
Kemalists (and the military supporters) are f*cked up.
Kurds are f*cked up.
I have made peace with it and do not suffer psychologically as I've come to accept that nothing is and ever will be as I wish in this country. The only thing I can plan and hope for is that I get the chance to get out of here (either as an asylum seeker or have the financial means to escape) when the time comes and my life is threatened due to not belonging to any of the four groups above.
About the coup itself:
It's BS imo as even I as a civilian know coups are not done at 22:00 at night, they are done in early morning at 05:00 or so. You go get the ministers, higher up police commissioners, whatever at their sleep. You go through incredibly difficult training to rise up in commanding ranks, these guys can't be such idiots. I may be wrong, which is ok, but this had the smell of a theatrical play in which Erdogan consolidates all and absolute power.